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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
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| FieldShunt74 |
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:37 pm
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Now look, I'm not a lawyer or a cop, I don't drink with lawyers or cops. I don't want to get involved in 'Rules Lawyering' as mentioned above.
| David Peters wrote: | | There is no law that say's you cannot discuss something, this is a basic right and is called freedom of speech or is Big Brother watching! |
I'm not sure that we have freedom of speech enshrined in law like our American cousins do. There are some things you can't legally say. You can't threaten, defame or slander someone. You can't pervert the course of justice. You probably can't say a bunch of other things which are against laws I've never heard of.
In my experience, the people you most often see jumping up and down about their 'rights' are neer-do-well types. They're very interested and informed about their 'rights' but very short on their responsibilities. People seem to think that if anyone tells them they can't say or do something then their rights are being infringed. They scream about censorship and 'big brother'. I don't think that's necessarily so though.
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Gwiwer
Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: Far away yet close at hand in images of elsewhere
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| Gwiwer |
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:55 pm
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Newspaper editors are responsible for the text they publish. Railpage Australia™ collectively is responsible for the material it publishes while the actual posts remain the property of their posters. Where I don't expect for a moment that I persoanlly would be held liable for someone breaking the sub judice laws I might be held accountable if I were a member of RP staff. I'm very sure those people don't want for that to happen either.
Newspapers are able to report events. They can even do so with sensationalist headlines like "Horror Rail Smash". There is nothing inaccurate in the fact of the smash having occurred and it would be generally accepted by reasonable people that the scene would be one of horror.
What they cannot, as I understand it, say is something like "innocent motorist mown down by callous train driver" since that is speculation as to the cause. There is always a fine line to be trod in journalism between maximising sales and strict legal compliance. Many times that line is a blurry grey and if we perhaps lived in the US that grey (sorry - "gray") area might be challenged more often than it is here.
We are thus far not living in such a litigious society. There are however legal restaints on reporting and those responsible can be held to account for breaches.
Given that Railpage Australia™ barely survives on donations to keep running we can ill afford an expensive legal action arising from (probably well-intentioned) comments made on our board.
Why MYKI? It isn't mine and it's not a key.
Ferroequinologist. BA Hons (Honourable Bachelor of Aquatarts  )
The wise yet mysterious Sir Gwiwer Greybeard |
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David Peters
Minister for Railways
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
Location: In a black Trans Am!
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| David Peters |
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:19 pm
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What I was getting at is that everyone discusses something sooner or later it cannot be stopped by anyone really, can it with out infringing on your rights, so what is really the big deal.
I would draw the line at speculation of an event but to report facts as known at the time is not really slander etc as it is only known facts at the time that you have made the report and as everyone knows the facts can and do change.
I agree with TLD™ if the accident has happened it is history and can be talked about openly, I see no cause as to why it should not, I hardly think that reading something on here could influence a juror otherwise they would not be allowed to watch television or read a paper etc during their time on a jury!
A friend was on a jury for a murder case and he said they were even supplied a free paper each day to read if they wanted to. I hardly think that in this day and age that you could find a juror that has not read or heard something, somewhere about the case they are deliberating on unless they lived in a monestary or somesuch!
I have talked to police, magistrates and even judges and they all talk about these cases, just the same as you or I talk about your family or work etc, they are no different to you or I.
To pervert the course of justice is a very open ended charge and you would need very strong evidence to support the charge, heresay is inadmissable in a court and discussion would come under heresay so it should be dimissed for the fluff that it is! 
National Railway Museum member.
The opinions expressed by my me in these posts is not the opinion of the N.R.M. and should not be construed as such.
Ferroequinologist and Microferroequinologist.
Photosite http://davidpeters950.fotopic.net |
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Myrtone
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Feb 13, 2007
Last Visited: Jan 6, 2009
Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:36 pm
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| FieldShunt74 wrote: | I'm not sure that we have freedom of speech enshrined in law like our American cousins do. There are some things you can't legally say. You can't threaten, defame or slander someone. You can't pervert the course of justice. You probably can't say a bunch of other things which are against laws I've never heard of.
In my experience, the people you most often see jumping up and down about their 'rights' are neer-do-well types. They're very interested and informed about their 'rights' but very short on their responsibilities. People seem to think that if anyone tells them they can't say or do something then their rights are being infringed. They scream about censorship and 'big brother'. I don't think that's necessarily so though. |
Morality and not law is the issue on this thread. I don't think this legalese is really helpful here.
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
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| FieldShunt74 |
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:24 pm
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| Myrtone wrote: | | FieldShunt74 wrote: | I'm not sure that we have freedom of speech enshrined in law like our American cousins do. There are some things you can't legally say. You can't threaten, defame or slander someone. You can't pervert the course of justice. You probably can't say a bunch of other things which are against laws I've never heard of.
In my experience, the people you most often see jumping up and down about their 'rights' are neer-do-well types. They're very interested and informed about their 'rights' but very short on their responsibilities. People seem to think that if anyone tells them they can't say or do something then their rights are being infringed. They scream about censorship and 'big brother'. I don't think that's necessarily so though. |
Morality and not law is the issue on this thread. I don't think this legalese is really helpful here. |
Two things. You forgot to quote this bit of my post:
| Quote: | | Now look, I'm not a lawyer or a cop, I don't drink with lawyers or cops. I don't want to get involved in 'Rules Lawyering' as mentioned above. |
And if you think that's legalese, I say your definition of legalese is pretty darn odd. I was answering the incorrect assertion that one can just say whatever they like without worrying about legal consequences. Is it wrong that I include the few examples that I could think of at the time? You think I sound too lawyerly or something? You're easily impressed. Maybe I should be billing you by the hour.
I don't think it's up to you to say what the thread's about either.
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
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BJ Titsengolf
That's Numberwang!
Joined: May 13, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 4, 2008
Location: Wobbies World
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:46 pm
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I'm just waiting for the chance to start a thread named "Attempted coupling of motor vehicle and train fails spectacularly. Delays expected."
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574M
White Guru
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
Location: Puttaparthi, India
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| 574M |
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:53 am
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| Myrtone wrote: |
Morality and not law is the issue on this thread. I don't think this legalese is really helpful here. |
I doubt you have your finger on the pulse. Law is the issue.
| Fieldshunt74 wrote: |
You probably can't say a bunch of other things which are against laws I've never heard of. |
He's right. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Rawls gave out the four principles of justice, and one is promulgation of laws and legislation enacted. In order to protect your rights, the government must gazette what they enact.
Back to you:
| Myrtone wrote: |
Morality and not law is the issue on this thread. I don't think this legalese is really helpful here. |
That is not exactly what you posted.
You referenced the protocols of Wikipedia, and Game role-playing. In the main, we are not Wikipedia (although we will have our own Wiki) and this is not a games forum. This is a transport forum, a rail forum to be specific. And events which happen within the rail corridor, and where those events impact on the community at large, are what concern us.
Let us take a case in point. Kerang. The Kerang accident thread has been locked, and the debate is about whether or not this is appropriate. For my take, it is. Where life has ended, then respect should be rendered.
Kerang thread may be locked but within these forums there is discussion in many places about what the government is doing post-Kerang, post Trawalla. There is discussion about bollards rising of the ground, traffic lights, booms, and the inadequacy of flashing lights and bells. Why, in NSW, bells are being replaced by sirens. Rail safety concerns us, and it also concerns the wider community.
We have clearly moved beyond horse and cart days, and B-triples are a reality closer to suburbia. The days of trains winning a knockout at collisions are gone.
As I have said in other threads, the four objectives of good government are
- protection of the community,
- protection of revenue,
- protection of industry, and
- the facilitation of trade and commerce.
In so doing, they facilitate progress, productivity and prosperity. That is their task and that is what creates common-wealth.
They would be negligent if they did nothing post-Kerang, post-Trawalla. So it is appropriate that we examine, discuss, critique level crossing safety and the needs of this day and age. Particularly at a time when the possibility of B-doubles becoming B-triples is real.
I have said here on Railpage that many operators and jurisdictions will observe the investigations of the Coroner at Kerang, and that closely. Gone are the days when incidents in one state have nothing to do with other states.
For example, Zeehan IP accident --> rundown mechanism on points in all states. Granville? Replacement of poles supporting bridges in all states. Waterfall? Installation of data loggers and enhanced vigilance on EMU's in is occurring in other states. Trawalla? A government instigated review of LX issues due the need to provide protection of the community where trains are travelling faster, and trucks are bigger and heavier. Kerang? It might put the brakes on VLine's repainting program. Vline may yet go to another colour for higher visibility. Note that Vline pioneered the use of reflective strips and paint on the sides of N carriages, post Nagambie collision, truck-v-train.
I put it to you that Railpage Australia™ is and can be a responsible place for discussion and illumination of critical issues, albeit, within the demands of respecting due process of law and protection of the community, industry, etc, etc. Yesterday, it was reported that VFT is being explored for a route between Perth and Bunbury. What protection of the industry (rail assets) and safety will be required there?
Railpage Australia™ and other forums do not pre-empt law nor the findings of the Coroner. In these matters, I consider that Railpage Australia™ is responsible. We move forward to consider what is needed for protection of the industry and its rail assets; viability, adequate protection, appropriate safe-working and operation of services, and satisfying the customer, both rail and freight. Satisfying the customer also involves protecting the customer.
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Myrtone
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Feb 13, 2007
Last Visited: Jan 6, 2009
Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:15 pm
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| 574M wrote: |
You referenced the protocols of Wikipedia, and Game role-playing. In the main, we are not Wikipedia (although we will have our own Wiki) and this is not a games forum. This is a transport forum, a rail forum to be specific. And events which happen within the rail corridor, and where those events impact on the community at large, are what concern us. |
I never said that, I mentioned wikipedia because they have reasons for their policies, which may apply elsewhere, proving a point experimentally can cause problems on (as far as I can tell), any forum or wiki, most forums or wikis have a good reason not to allow it, starting a thread just to get it locked is disruption, does anyone really think we should just accept disruption just because we aren't wikipedia. Yes, I did misread (by mistake) this:
| Quote: | I'm not sure that we have freedom of speech enshrined in law like our American cousins do. There are some things you can't legally say. You can't threaten, defame or slander someone. You can't pervert the course of justice. You probably can't say a bunch of other things which are against laws I've never heard of.
In my experience, the people you most often see jumping up and down about their 'rights' are neer-do-well types. They're very interested and informed about their 'rights' but very short on their responsibilities. People seem to think that if anyone tells them they can't say or do something then their rights are being infringed. They scream about censorship and 'big brother'. I don't think that's necessarily so though. |
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Q4004
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 20, 2007
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: Waiting for the New ARG Locos to arrive!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Q4004 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:05 am
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Id like to know what moderator locked this thread
Who hates the guy in a bottlesuit on the Bottlemart TV ads? Why did they lock it!
If you cant access my website, it's because it's password protected. If you want the password, Please PM me and i will give it to members who deserve to view my photos.
Please PM me when S3309 round Kwinana URGENTLEY AS I NEED IT 2 COMPLETE COLLECTION AND WHEN Q CLASS DOES THE ACID AND CEMENT
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MrNathan
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Sep 22, 2004
Last Visited: Jan 5, 2009
Location: In and out.
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:07 am
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Because you're a tool. Think about it.
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KRviator
Moderator
Joined: Apr 23, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: Cab of a 90 Class
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| KRviator |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:25 am
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A wild guess, NR103, because it was another useless thread started by you, that doesn't really contribute anything to the running of Railpage Australia™ or the world as a whole. Much the same as a thread about "Who hates Big Bird?" or "Who hates Elmo?*" achieves absolutely nothing.
Also, a post saying "He's going to be knocked down" also achieves nothing apart from making you look like some schoolyard bully who wishes he was as tough as he tries to sound.
To avoid any repeats of this, everyone should ask themselves the following question, prior to hitting the Submit button: "Are 10,000 people going to think I'm a tool when they read this?" If the answer is Yes, or even maybe, then perhaps you should reconsider posting it.
*And no smart-asre comments from the monkey gallery about how Elmo is too cute to hate, thank you very much. 
Trainee Driver, Pacific National
Comments made are strictly the opinion of the author and do not reflect the opinions of the ADF, Pacific National, Freight Australia or the Boy Scouts of Antartica.
My fotopic gallery: http://KRviator.fotopic.net |
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ARG706
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jun 03, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: City of doomsayers
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| ARG706 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:03 pm
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| NR103_Pacnat wrote: | Id like to know what moderator locked this thread
Who hates the guy in a bottlesuit on the Bottlemart TV ads? Why did they lock it! |
Stop asking! It's a trivial question which didn't really require it's own thread
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MrNathan
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Sep 22, 2004
Last Visited: Jan 5, 2009
Location: In and out.
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:48 am
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| KRviator wrote: | | And no smart-asre comments from the monkey gallery about how Elmo is too cute to hate, thank you very much. |
It's just a front man, it's always the cute ones...
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David Peters
Minister for Railways
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
Location: In a black Trans Am!
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| David Peters |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:41 pm
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You should have no problems with a simple discussion if names etc are not made public, this is what I implying with the post about about the police etc. They will dicuss it to a point but will not name the person or person's involved, nor tell you you anything that is involved deeply with the case, but over a beer at the pub with non police friends they will openly discuss this type of thing. It is not against the law and they have not divulged any info that has not already been made public, so what really is the problem.
There is no difference really to us discussing something here than to be in the front bar of a hotel discussing it, the only thing missing is the beer!
In the end all of the person or person's dirty laundry usually wind up in the paper anyway, look at Wayne Carey for instance or Heath Ledger for that matter, it all comes out in the wash!
National Railway Museum member.
The opinions expressed by my me in these posts is not the opinion of the N.R.M. and should not be construed as such.
Ferroequinologist and Microferroequinologist.
Photosite http://davidpeters950.fotopic.net |
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