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drwaddles
In need of a breath mint
Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Lifting the A-League trophy!
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:35 pm
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| gw0071 wrote: | | Yeah I agree totally, close all of the silly little stations around Lake Macquarie. Locals are spoilt with an extensive choice of other forms of public transport. |
Like what? Clearly you have never ever gotten public transport in this area.
| gw0071 wrote: | | Central>Strathfield>Hornsby>Woy Woy>Gosford>Broadmeadow(terminate) |
And this comment just backs up my theory - why on earth would you not continue the service to the CBD?
It's not a freakin bogan bus taking the locals to work in Sydney and then home again 
People who talk out their asre usually have bad breath.
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Thomas the tank engine
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 11, 2003
Last Visited: Oct 18, 2008
Location: In bed doing what I do best!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:59 pm
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| Comeng wrote: | | Your thinking of Wondabyne, situated between Hawkesbury River and Woy Woy! |
That would be the one. I remember once seeing a passenger getting off the train, to be met by a small dinghy and headed straight for one of the secluded houses on the other side of the river.
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:12 pm
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| drwaddles wrote: | And this comment just backs up my theory - why on earth would you not continue the service to the CBD?
It's not a freakin bogan bus taking the locals to work in Sydney and then home again |
Yeah, the Newcastle CBD line is useful, mainly for people making local rail journeys within the Hunter region to the CBD for shopping/work/etc. I'd consider the Newcastle-Morisset shuttles and Telarah trains a suburban service within Newcastle rather than an intercity service, so those locations should be serviced appropriately so.
I'd like to see a proper suburban service provided to those smaller places (as well as new stations at Glendale+Kotara) than to start closing them due to patronage, as I have mentioned on another site  . The 2-car K sets would be appropriate trains for such runs - pity that they can't run those as DOO, as having a guard for such trains is rather pointless and doubles the staffing cost of boosting such services.
| Thomas the tank engine wrote: | | I remember once seeing a passenger getting off the train, to be met by a small dinghy and headed straight for one of the secluded houses on the other side of the river. |
I have used Wondabyne once, it does actually get used - in one hour there, one other person got off my train and headed for a small boat to one of the houses, and one 'local' who lived I think in a house in the same side as the station got off a train coming from Wyong. There was also someone who was fishing from the station jetty 
There's no ticket machine there - my luck was that I boarded a Wyong-bound service (obviously not having a ticket) and NSW Police officers boarded at another station and asked for my ticket. It was a good thing that I kept my ticket to Wondabyne as proof that I had been there, although they were surprised that someone who lives so far away would be visiting Wondy of all places 
A photo showing the platform length and the nose of a V set can be seen over here, for those who are not familiar with the place.
"The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:55 pm
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[quote="Somebody in the WWW"]| drwaddles wrote: | And this comment just backs up my theory - why on earth would you not continue the service to the CBD?
It's not a freakin bogan bus taking the locals to work in Sydney and then home again |
| Quote: | | Yeah, the Newcastle CBD line is useful, mainly for people making local rail journeys within the Hunter region to the CBD for shopping/work/etc. I'd consider the Newcastle-Morisset shuttles and Telarah trains a suburban service within Newcastle rather than an intercity service, so those locations should be serviced appropriately so. |
I would not think that the NCLE CBD line is only useful for people making local train services. The fact is that a lot of people who travel from outside the NCLE area go into the CBD as well.
I see no reason to stop at BMD at all, & don't even live in the area, all it does is give credence to closing the line altogether & have more yuppy buildings constructed in the ROW. It takes a lot longer to go by bus into NCLE from BMD than by train, & thats not taking into account the time to change etc.
| Quote: | | I'd like to see a proper suburban service provided to those smaller places (as well as new stations at Glendale+Kotara) than to start closing them due to patronage, as I have mentioned on another site . The 2-car K sets would be appropriate trains for such runs - pity that they can't run those as DOO, as having a guard for such trains is rather pointless and doubles the staffing cost of boosting such services. |
What is the staffing cost for a guard, especially when you look at the stations between BMD & Morriset. How many of the stations have staff these days? The railways have saved a heck of a lot over the years with rduced staff, & what benefit to the travelling public has it really been?
I have read where some of those smaller unmanned stations have vandal problems with ticket machines & people not paying, so why not the guards being used to sell tickets from those stations?
As petrol gets more expensive more people will use the services, especially in those areas that are actually growth locations. Like I also said that if a station was built at Glendale I pretty sure that it would increase patronage there.
A new station at or near Garden City would be a good idea & if sutiably located, could even do away with Adamstown. What is the patronage there?
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:20 pm
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| a6et wrote: | | I have read where some of those smaller unmanned stations have vandal problems with ticket machines & people not paying, so why not the guards being used to sell tickets from those stations? |
Bit hard for the guard to be roving the train selling tickets etc when he is required to be in his cab before & after all station stops to give right of way and control the doors, even if the train is only 2 carriages long.
Even if they did sell tickets, they would be no different to having ticket machines on stations, as unless they were multi-skilled as Transit Officers they could not force you to pay.
Having a guard sitting in the back cab of a little 2-car K set doing little other than opening/closing the doors and giving ROW is a waste of valuable funds. Better off investing that money in a useful frequency, and in station staff at the busier stations as well as extra transit officers for security.
| a6et wrote: | | As petrol gets more expensive more people will use the services, especially in those areas that are actually growth locations. |
Given the current decline in patronage along that section, I would be surprised if any patronage increases due to petrol prices would cause it to be significantly higher than it was prior to decline, if any higher at all. The 60min weekday/120min weekend frequency is hardly enticing to new passengers, and the ones closer to Newcastle have slightly more frequent (albeit still poor) bus services.
I'm not aware of any of those Lake Macquarie places as being growth areas.
| a6et wrote: | Like I also said that if a station was built at Glendale I pretty sure that it would increase patronage there.
A new station at or near Garden City would be a good idea |
Yeah, you could increase the patronage fairly significant by providing a couple of fairly significant trip generators along the line, rather than just servicing the little insignificant hamlets as at present.
| a6et wrote: | | could even do away with Adamstown. What is the patronage there? |
I was there for a couple of hours on an afternoon back in April on the RP Short North trip, not very busy, possibly an average of 5 people per train, with the infrequent train service.
I'd rather not close any of the stations between Broadmeadow and Morisset serviced by local trains, they do not add significantly to the travel time of those services.
"The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
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neety
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Apr 22, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
Location: At my computer
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Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:59 am
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: |
| Thomas the tank engine wrote: | | I remember once seeing a passenger getting off the train, to be met by a small dinghy and headed straight for one of the secluded houses on the other side of the river. |
I have used Wondabyne once, it does actually get used - in one hour there, one other person got off my train and headed for a small boat to one of the houses, and one 'local' who lived I think in a house in the same side as the station got off a train coming from Wyong. There was also someone who was fishing from the station jetty |
Wondy has its regulars.
My record is 13 for Wondy, took ages to unload 'em all.
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neety
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Apr 22, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
Location: At my computer
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Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:15 am
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: |
Even if they did sell tickets, they would be no different to having ticket machines on stations, as unless they were multi-skilled as Transit Officers they could not force you to pay.
Having a guard sitting in the back cab of a little 2-car K set doing little other than opening/closing the doors and giving ROW is a waste of valuable funds. Better off investing that money in a useful frequency, and in station staff at the busier stations as well as extra transit officers for security.
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So in the short time between some stations, you would like us to sell a ticket to someone at the opposite end of the train, calculate the cost of their ticket, write the ticket out, wait for them to count out the 10000000000 5c coins in their wallet. By this time the train has gotten to the next station, we're still waiting for Joe Blow to finish handing over the coins.
After we have sold everyone tickets and have a bag full of $ on us, we get bashed and robbed. Any more great suggestions?
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Speed
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
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Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:32 am
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The suggestion about selling tickets was by a6et. V-line services run with a driver and a conductor, the latter selling tickets and leaning out the closest passenger door at each stop to give the right of way. If robbery of conductors was common on such trains, you'd have to question whether it was safe for any other passenger to travel on the train.
Somebody in the WWW was suggesting that 2-car trains could be operated by a single-person. He wasn't suggesting that any Cityrail staff would sell tickets.
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vdan
Locomotive Driver
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 14, 2008
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Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:18 pm
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | I usually enjoy the part of the trip from Gosford to Newcastle moreso than the scenic Hornsby-Gosford part as the former is quite a fast trip, while the latter is rather slow, and the scenery wears off on you after a while. |
Yeah, if you're a regular Gosford-Sydney commuter, the slow, winding trip between Cowan and Woy Woy Tunnel definitely loses its appeal.
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bruce
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 29, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 19, 2008
Location: Newcastle
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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:16 am
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | I'm not aware of any of those Lake Macquarie places as being growth areas. |
Most of them are ... now that the Lake Maquarie peninsula is pretty much developed out, the next big areas to be opened for development in the city of Lake Macquarie will be on the mainland side of the lake.
The two keys to building patronage in that area, other than just waiting around for a decade fiddling the thumbs, is the Transport Interchange and integrated bus/rail ticketing in the Lower Hunter region.
What the Transport Interchange does is take two medium sized employment zones, the industrial estate southwest of Cardiff and Glendale itself, and turn it into one large employment zone.
For rail in particular, that means first off that the rail will be passing between the two largest employment zones in the region, so during peak, any service running either way between Glendale and the CBD is running in the peak service direction.
Second, for buses, the Cardiff Industrial Estate is a cul-de-sac, and the Transport Interchange with the road connection over the rail line turns it into a through route.
Even without regional ticket integration, a Lake/CBD service running all-stops Morisset to Glendale, express to the CBD, all stops to Glendale, and return, is a route with very good possibilities if the Transport Interchange is put into place. Add regional bus/rail ticket integration and extend the route to touch over overlap a new CC terminus further north, and it only gets better.
The Newcastle/Sydney route itself is a true inter-city, and it could run at less than hourly intervals if an hourly connection is available via the CC and if in return it runs a genuine Express service.
-- Go Broadmeadow Magic --
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bruce
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 29, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 19, 2008
Location: Newcastle
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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:35 am
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| a6et wrote: | | I see no reason to stop at BMD at all, & don't even live in the area, all it does is give credence to closing the line altogether & have more yuppy buildings constructed in the ROW. |
There's actually very little development potential in the ROW ... the only noticeable development potential that that the company hired by mirror head found was Newcastle Station itself, and even that was qualified by the experience that redeveloping under heritage constraints always pushes up costs, so cuts into profits.
Its more about getting the wires out of the views and getting ready access between the old CBD and the foreshore ... which they could do something about without closing the line, but that would take design and engineering, and "rip out the ugly old line" takes not thought at all.
BMD itself is a great bus transfer station, given the way the road network is laid out in Newcastle ... but for transfers onto through services in both directions. Stopping the train and shoving people onto buses is a way to kill both rail patronage and bus patronage.
-- Go Broadmeadow Magic --
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Bwana
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:29 am
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| neety wrote: | | Somebody in the WWW wrote: |
Even if they did sell tickets, they would be no different to having ticket machines on stations, as unless they were multi-skilled as Transit Officers they could not force you to pay.
Having a guard sitting in the back cab of a little 2-car K set doing little other than opening/closing the doors and giving ROW is a waste of valuable funds. Better off investing that money in a useful frequency, and in station staff at the busier stations as well as extra transit officers for security.
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So in the short time between some stations, you would like us to sell a ticket to someone at the opposite end of the train, calculate the cost of their ticket, write the ticket out, wait for them to count out the 10000000000 5c coins in their wallet. By this time the train has gotten to the next station, we're still waiting for Joe Blow to finish handing over the coins.
After we have sold everyone tickets and have a bag full of $ on us, we get bashed and robbed. Any more great suggestions? |
I'm in 2 minds about this - it seems to work well in Wellington, where there is bugger all station staff except at the major stations and the guard sells tickets as well as controlling doors and ROW. To do this they have a control panel at EVERY door (from memory with a lock so dropkicks can't play silly buggers). They have single deck carraiges though, and much less patronage than Sydney. They also have a much better ticketing system which means selling one ticket normally will cover even the most unusual travel pattern for a day, and more often covers the week or longer. I doubt one guard could do it in Sydney - maybe on the L sets, but not much else.
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:06 am
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| Speed wrote: | The suggestion about selling tickets was by a6et. V-line services run with a driver and a conductor, the latter selling tickets and leaning out the closest passenger door at each stop to give the right of way. If robbery of conductors was common on such trains, you'd have to question whether it was safe for any other passenger to travel on the train.
Somebody in the WWW was suggesting that 2-car trains could be operated by a single-person. He wasn't suggesting that any Cityrail staff would sell tickets. |
Being a 2 car set, with the train stopping at the entry/steps to the station, how hard is it for the guard to take the fare from impending passengers on those short services?
How many guards actually ride in the rear cabin of the train anyway? from what I have observed they tend to be in the drivers end on them. If not in all directions at least in one direction to save them walking, & is that really where they are suppossed to be? Don't say yes, as I know that is not correct.
As such, they are in the drivers cab area, & as a result there is the protection of 2 people, & there is also the point if there is problems to have radio communication to the police. Shut the doors & lock them in until the police arrive.
How easy is it now for people to avoid paying for a fare at those & many other stations in the whole network? How many times do you see people go through the gate barrriers, intended for people with prams & luggage, with attendant staff just watching them through without once glancing at tickets?
For people to whinge about the way that PT is losing money & not look at solutions to ensure that everyone is paying their way surelly is a priority. Surelly the situation is also there to try & protect jobs & to allow each person the maximum security in employment & make their jobs more justifiable.
tThe way I see it, the cost of ticket machines, & repairs to them is easilly offset by the price of a guards wages. How much does it cost to have a machine serviced, to have the tickets, replaced & surelly the money is collected by security staff in 2 man crews?
The situation is that there is so much fare avoidance going on that I would think that staff would be doing what they could to prevent it, especially with a government that is hell bent on doing everything it can to reduce or cut out services.
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:21 am
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| bruce wrote: | | Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | I'm not aware of any of those Lake Macquarie places as being growth areas. |
Most of them are ... now that the Lake Maquarie peninsula is pretty much developed out, the next big areas to be opened for development in the city of Lake Macquarie will be on the mainland side of the lake.
The two keys to building patronage in that area, other than just waiting around for a decade fiddling the thumbs, is the Transport Interchange and integrated bus/rail ticketing in the Lower Hunter region.
What the Transport Interchange does is take two medium sized employment zones, the industrial estate southwest of Cardiff and Glendale itself, and turn it into one large employment zone.
For rail in particular, that means first off that the rail will be passing between the two largest employment zones in the region, so during peak, any service running either way between Glendale and the CBD is running in the peak service direction.
Second, for buses, the Cardiff Industrial Estate is a cul-de-sac, and the Transport Interchange with the road connection over the rail line turns it into a through route.
Even without regional ticket integration, a Lake/CBD service running all-stops Morisset to Glendale, express to the CBD, all stops to Glendale, and return, is a route with very good possibilities if the Transport Interchange is put into place. Add regional bus/rail ticket integration and extend the route to touch over overlap a new CC terminus further north, and it only gets better.
The Newcastle/Sydney route itself is a true inter-city, and it could run at less than hourly intervals if an hourly connection is available via the CC and if in return it runs a genuine Express service. |
This is the main point of the whole issue & many forget when talking about the Lake MacQuarie area, as whenever we travel north & looking out the windows to see something, the water views always seem to take precedence, to relieve whatever monotony there is of the journey.
Looking over the lake, we forget the huge solid land on the other side which are not all coal mining sancturies, but they are future development areas for both industry & housing.
There will come a time when the bypass from near Fassifern or near Cockle Creek will happen, (sooner the better) & as a result the existing line will in some ways come under threat.
The area around Glendale is not just a shopping precinct, but also a large industrial area, & was seen as a replacement for old Honeysuckle, although the preffered option by those higher up was Sandgate.
As such a station at Glendale could not only be for shoppers but certainly seen as viable for workers in the industrial area, especially if the track on that side was developed properly.
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:49 am
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: |
Bit hard for the guard to be roving the train selling tickets etc when he is required to be in his cab before & after all station stops to give right of way and control the doors, even if the train is only 2 carriages long
Even if they did sell tickets, they would be no different to having ticket machines on stations, as unless they were multi-skilled as Transit Officers they could not force you to pay. |
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My other post covers this, as they do not have to travel through the train, the option of course is if they do not pay, or have a valid ticket, they are not allowed on the train, something the guard can do.
| Quote: | | Having a guard sitting in the back cab of a little 2-car K set doing little other than opening/closing the doors and giving ROW is a waste of valuable funds. Better off investing that money in a useful frequency, and in station staff at the busier stations as well as extra transit officers for security. |
Interesting, but are you not being a bit contradictory in this? Having extra station staff at busy stations, is one thing if they check the tickets of commuters, but what about other times, & are we not talking aboout stations that do not have staff? Extra Transit officers, they roam in pairs, so you replace one person with 2 on the train??
More frequency of services is great, but we have gone down that same path in the past, & part of this thread talks about the lack of people using the existing services.
Once people see the benefits of getting off the roads & start using what is there now, then the extra services will come or, at least they should
| Quote: | | Given the current decline in patronage along that section, I would be surprised if any patronage increases due to petrol prices would cause it to be significantly higher than it was prior to decline, if any higher at all. The 60min weekday/120min weekend frequency is hardly enticing to new passengers, and the ones closer to Newcastle have slightly more frequent (albeit still poor) bus services. |
Again, how can you say or talk about about increasing service frequencies when you say that existing patronage is declining. The point is that there is an increase in patronage in a lot of areas owing to the petrol issue. It may not be showing up that much at the moment in the Hunter, but I am sure that it is there.
| Quote: | | a6et wrote: | Like I also said that if a station was built at Glendale I pretty sure that it would increase patronage there.
A new station at or near Garden City would be a good idea |
Yeah, you could increase the patronage fairly significant by providing a couple of fairly significant trip generators along the line, rather than just servicing the little insignificant hamlets as at present.
| a6et wrote: | | could even do away with Adamstown. What is the patronage there? |
I was there for a couple of hours on an afternoon back in April on the RP Short North trip, not very busy, possibly an average of 5 people per train, with the infrequent train service.
I'd rather not close any of the stations between Broadmeadow and Morisset serviced by local trains, they do not add significantly to the travel time of those services. |
Again, there seems to be a contradiction in this. You initially say about providing locations that add up to significant trip generators along the line regarding new stations, whilst then saying rather than just servicing the little insignificant hamlets as at present How can this be seen as then being of an advantage to retain stations along the line when you have said that there is no growth potential.
Also to then say to not close any stations as they do not really add significantly to the travel times. I am pretty sure that most commuters who sit on those all stations services on a regular basis get frustrated when the train stops all the time with no one gettin on or off the train.
Each stop adds around 3 minutes to a service at a minimum, with an increase in stations that has to be considered. & if a new station is built in a more suitable location that will attract more passengers then it needs to be considered.
Looking at Kotara, how many use it? as to get to the station is a bit of a distance for most people. Adamstown station actually has buses running right past there, both to Garden City, as well as to Adamstown/Newcastle & then to John Hunter, the only people who would use it are probably those going to Sydney, or further afield.
One station between the two would easily serve the area, as it is primarilly built up. Likwise, A station at Glendale would not be of any real disadvantage to the few who would lose out with a closure at Cockle Creek, if it was seen to be necessary.
Last edited by a6et on Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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