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DalyWaters
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 31, 2006
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:53 pm
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I've been thinking about the tunnel idea and maybe they are heading in the wrong direction.
How would the effect be if the tunnel went from Newport under the Yarra, then under Collins Street (with Southern Cross, Central and Parliament stations) then to Victoria Park to link up with the Epping and Hurstbridge lines (and maybe Doncaster one day).
That would then allow the Clifton Hill loop to be freed up as well as the Werribees to be taken out of the Northern loop.
Next step is to electrify to Geelong and put all the Siemens trains on to the Geelong - Epping, Hurstbridge group. They are unique and can't couple to the XTraps so keeps them seperate. They are also rated to a high speed and have air suspension so should suit the longer run with a seat change and toilet fitting.
Williamstowns could still run via Footscray. The Sydenham line could then have four tracks from Footscray to North Melbourne.
Any comments?
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fullofrubbish
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Mar 14, 2007
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Location: Parkville
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:34 pm
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Pretty sure Clifton Hill loop services weren't Siemens enabled but anyhow.
I think the reasoning behind the Footscray to Caulfield tunnel was that it enabled capacity in the growth zones (i.e the West and South-East). Clifton Hill loop still had plenty of room to deal with Epping/potential South Morang. Though if you want to through in Doncaster who knows!
I still don't still the need for the big-tunnel. Much prefer to a move to incorporate more direct running, through routing, and having outer suburban stations for the layover instead of the current operational practises at Flinders Street. Add in some infrastructure upgrades at middle suburban (i.e 3rd track Sunshine-Footscray, selected 'overtaking loops' along the Dandenong line) and outer locations (...single line sections or poor terminating platform arrangements at end stations) and I reckon you could get a pretty good result for the cost and leave the big big project for later down the track.
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Gauntlet
Train Controller
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:19 am
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If you're going to take a short cut from Newport why not send the sparks to Sandringham via Flinders Street and terminate the Vline trains at Southern Cross.
I once had an idea to tunnel from North Melbourne station into the Clifton Hill loop and run Upfield trains through there and either platform 9 or 8s at Southern Cross.
Trains arriving early would wait at Southern Cross not Flinders Street, Bairnsdale trains would use platform 14 at Southern Cross, and Craigieburn trains would use the flyover.
Unfortunately there are probably too many obstacles for the tunnel, and bigger solutions are required to ease city loop congestion.
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Speed
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:46 am
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| DalyWaters wrote: | | How would the effect be if the tunnel went from Newport under the Yarra, then under Collins Street (with Southern Cross, Central and Parliament stations) then to Victoria Park to link up with the Epping and Hurstbridge lines (and maybe Doncaster one day). |
I'd imagine that there'd still be a bottle-neck around Victoria Park. I might suggest that the tunnel emerge down from Clifton Hill and Clifton Hill have 2 underground platforms (the only apparent reason to emerge at Victoria Park is if you anticipate later building a line from there to Doncaster). Of course, single-track down from Clifton Hill will still constrain how many services can run.
If you're building a new tunnel towards Clifton Hill, I'd suggest new stops at either Nicholson Street or Brunswick Street (and maybe another one on Victoria Parade) rather than the existing city loop stops.
I believe that the Siemens trains can run on the Clifton Hill group (at least towards Epping for maintenance) but I consider this as of limited importance. Any such plan is far enough away that we can't assume that Melbourne will have the same rolling-stock which it has at present.
Such a tunnel has the potential to address congestion on the West Gate Bridge far better than anything proposed in the Eddington report. It would make train services far more appealing to people living in the western suburbs and could make public transport to Garden City and Fishermen's Bend more convenient. However, it does not mean that there won't still be a demand for more pathways for trains up from Mordialloc / Springvale.
Grade separation at Caulfield (similar to that at Burnley) and up from Richmond together with more triplicate or quadruplicate stretches down from Caulfield would help to increase the capacity of the existing Caulfield Group. If you want to add extra lines to outer suburbs or to increase the volume of trains coming up from Dandenong radically, then a tunnel may be the only option.
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DalyWaters
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 31, 2006
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:19 pm
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| Quote: | | I think the reasoning behind the Footscray to Caulfield tunnel was that it enabled capacity in the growth zones (i.e the West and South-East). Clifton Hill loop still had plenty of room to deal with Epping/potential South Morang. Though if you want to through in Doncaster who knows! |
Taking Hurstbridge and Werribees out of the current loops should make a big difference.
| Quote: | | I'd imagine that there'd still be a bottle-neck around Victoria Park. I might suggest that the tunnel emerge down from Clifton Hill and Clifton Hill have 2 underground platforms (the only apparent reason to emerge at Victoria Park is if you anticipate later building a line from there to Doncaster). Of course, single-track down from Clifton Hill will still constrain how many services can run. |
Agreed. I am now thinking maybe the Eppings could stay on the old route with the Hurstbridge going under or over at Clifton Hill.
Footscray to Caulfield currently has four tracks. That is sufficient for expresses and stoppers to work together. There is little to gain by having more tracks in that section. The problems are North Melbourne to Footscray has two tracks dedicated to Geelong / Werribee / Williamstown. This plan frees that up. Also, Caulfield to Dandenong is a huge obstacle to an efficient system and urgently needs a third track.
The biggest urgent problems on the system now are :
Sydenham line overcrowded. Clifton Hill overcrowding. Northern Loop overcrowded. V/Line trains delayed crossing over at North Melbourne junction. Journey times too long to Dandenong. Siemens trains have only two doors per car and are too slow to load and unload.
Otherwise, we have a system where Siemens trains can't run on the same lines as XTraps, whilst more XTraps are on order. So running the Siemens to Geelong would be more suitable for them and the system.
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PalmerEldritch
Say goodnight to the bad guy
Joined: Jun 16, 2004
Last Visited: Oct 27, 2008
Location: Princes Park, Carlton
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:13 pm
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Found at: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24284852-2862,00.html
| Quote: | Fares toll to pay for Caulfield-Footscray tunnel
Ashley Gardiner
September 03, 2008 12:00am
TAXPAYERS could bankroll the proposed rail tunnel from Caulfield to Footscray by paying a "shadow" fare for every passenger.
The funding idea was floated yesterday by Treasurer John Lenders during a speech about infrastructure investment.
"If a proposition is put to us that is value for money, we will look at it," Mr Lenders said. "Everything is on the table from our perspective."
Mr Lenders, speaking to the Australian British Chamber of Commerce, said the State Government subsidised 66 per cent of the cost of running public transport.
In his report released in April, Sir Rod Eddington recommended an underground rail link between Caulfield and Footscray worth $8.5 billion.
Mr Lenders said this tunnel could be built with private sector money, like roads such as EastLink and CityLink.
"It's more problematic in a lot of ways, because you need the shadow toll (fare) aspect if you're going to actually finance it," Mr Lenders said.
He said he had not seen any other suggestion on paying for the rail tunnel with private money.
Railway stations could be rented out for commercial use as another way of raising money, Mr Lenders said.
But there was little private sector interest when the Government last tried to attract investment for the rail system.
"The last time we floated any of that, that was for the regional fast rail, and there wasn't at that stage any commercial appetite to be involved in that," Mr Lenders said. |
Watch out for the mighty Blues in 2008, with Judd, Stevens, Kreuzer, Cloke and Aisake
Ó hAilpín to join Fevola, Gibbs, Murphy, Carrazzo, Scotland, Fischer, Waite, Setanta
Ó hAilpín, Houlihan, Walker, Simpson, Betts and co!
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ZH836301
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 30, 2008
Location: BleakCity
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:59 pm
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| Quote: | | "The last time we floated any of that, that was for the regional fast rail, and there wasn't at that stage any commercial appetite to be involved in that," Mr Lenders said. |
Fast trains to whoop whoop for chicken feed - who wouldn't be interested?
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Deep Throat
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 21, 2004
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: Hanging out with Donald Snerd
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| Deep Throat |
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:54 pm
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| DalyWaters wrote: | I've been thinking about the tunnel idea and maybe they are heading in the wrong direction.
How would the effect be if the tunnel went from Newport under the Yarra, then under Collins Street (with Southern Cross, Central and Parliament stations) then to Victoria Park to link up with the Epping and Hurstbridge lines (and maybe Doncaster one day).
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Bugger it.
Let's dust off the 1938 City Railway plans from the VR.
They were even costed (though I can't recall how much) and people are looking at Answers To Our Railway Woes, the past may prove more attractive to the dribblers...
Essentially it went:
Two north/south tunnels under Swanston St.
St. Kilda tunneled out to Elwood diving in at St. Kilda - dives at 45deg angle SW/NE under Flinders St, up Swanston,left around Lonsdale, returns up at North Melbourne. In reality you could vary it to follow St. Kilda Rd and eliminate some trams - although I think geologically I wouldn't be digging tunnels in that swampy morass..
Epping/Hurstbridge dives SE/NW under Flinders St, north up Swanston, two/three stations at current Museum site, Melb. Uni, Lygon St/Elgin Sts, one more, appears up near North Fitzroy site and loops toward Clifton Hill providing a loop/offset of Epping congestion. Plans were to route Eppings this way I think.
Extend Ashburton to Eastmalvern, forming similar track to Waverley Rd except junction for Up trains to head inward to the city in a loop.
Extend Hawthorn-Kew (and they wanted to have a flyover at Burnley and four tracks to Hawthorn from Richmond back then, which they did) to DOncaster in a NE direction.
They did plan duplicating Glen Waverley in full, triplicating Caulfield-Moorabbin (but wanted Cheltenham) and eight car 71' Taits and extended platforms.
They did the sums back then and knew that eventually, the network would exceed capacity in outer areas and was more time-efficient at a certain point than trams. They weren't planning on competing with trams in inner-urban routes and were prepared to leave that to the M&MTB but knew that they would reach crisis point soon based on projected numbers.
Looking at it then, you realise that they were right - but the attraction of cars simply delayed it until now.
Anonymous - and proud of it.
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Rheneas
Beginner
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Last Visited: Sep 12, 2008
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:52 pm
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| richiebogie wrote: | London may have its regional (and intercontinental) lines separate from its metro lines.
Melbourne too could benefit from a dedicated express track in and out of the city from Southern Cross to Sunshine.
As Paul Mees points out, we have this in the Bunbury Street dual gauge - unelectrified and perfect for our diesel regional fleet.
It just takes a bit of creative thinking to use our current infrastructure optimally, or with a few tweaks. |
Apologies if I've missed discussion of this elsewhere, but this point from Mees about using the Bunbury street route to Sunshine doesn't appear to have been explored.
Even if Eddington's tunnel does go ahead its still several years away. While the Bunbury street suggestion only addresses some of the wider problems, and perhaps only for the short term, outwardly it seems relatively cost-effective. So why not?
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SteamtoStay
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: Behind you!
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:30 pm
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| Deep Throat wrote: |
Essentially it went:
Two north/south tunnels under Swanston St.
St. Kilda tunneled out to Elwood diving in at St. Kilda - dives at 45deg angle SW/NE under Flinders St, up Swanston,left around Lonsdale, returns up at North Melbourne. In reality you could vary it to follow St. Kilda Rd and eliminate some trams - although I think geologically I wouldn't be digging tunnels in that swampy morass.. |
The extra two viaduct tracks and Southern Cross 15/16 (will) serve for this purpose, right? All we need is North Melb 7/8!
| Deep Throat wrote: | | Epping/Hurstbridge dives SE/NW under Flinders St, north up Swanston, two/three stations at current Museum site, Melb. Uni, Lygon St/Elgin Sts, one more, appears up near North Fitzroy site and loops toward Clifton Hill providing a loop/offset of Epping congestion. Plans were to route Eppings this way I think. |
Similar job done by the Clifton Hill loop, except it uses platforms at Flinders, and misses the hospital/uni/etc.?
Happy Chanukah! 
David S.
*Vice President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
*Holder of Cert I, Transport & Logistics
*Bogie Winner 2008 - "Best Contribution to Signalling and Infrastructure"
*Youngest person in 20 years to author four Connex Circulars
*Youngest person ever to sit at the control desk in METROL (I think)
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Robbb01
Assistant Commissioner
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Location: The eastern suburbs PB whole, Manningham
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:20 pm
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Better option to the cross city railway link....
-Caulfield under Balaclava Road and eventually coming above ground at St Kilda. Converting the St Kilda light rail back to Heavy rail and then tunneling it once reaching the Crown. Tunnel it straight under Swanston St and then Connect it to Footscray. The Sandringham Line would be re-routed once reaching South Yarra and would instead go under St Kilda Road and Swanston Street. It would then follow the same route as the cross city tunnel and connect at Footscray. Build the Alamein-Oakliegh Link and allow trains to run from Westall-Melbourne Airport via Campbellfield, Coburg. Next tunnel the railway at Newport. This will be used for Werribee trains only. Werribee will gain a 5 minute frequency full time and trains will run under Bourke St and half the services will go to the Epping Line at Merri and the other half to Doncaster. The Aurora railway line would be built and the Weribee trains will go there. Quad the Epping line from Merri-Lalor. Then quad to Dandenong. Now....all i need it the 20 billion to complete this
My new website on Melbourne and its public transport network coming sooonnn.
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Stewie: What did you just say?
Lois: Stewie, stop fussing.
Stewie: Pipe down Lois. (Slaps guy on head.) Hey big man, turn around. Oh you can't hear me now. I was going to watch the movie, but forget it. For the next 5 hours, you're my smeg.
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SteamtoStay
Chief Commissioner
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:19 pm
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1. If the Caulfield-Footscray tunnel and the Sandringham-Footscray tunnels were built as you propose, what would you do with the spare tracks from Caulfield and South Yarra to the city?
2. Alamein-Oakleigh link -> Why not extend it further to Rowville?
3. Why the hell would Airport trains come from Westall instead of Southern Cross?
4. Werribee does not need a 5min frequency.
5. Why would you quad from Merri to Lalor? Even with the service you propose, two tracks would be sufficient. Also, it sounds like there's no Whittlesea in your plan.
6. Dandy quadding should be first on the list.
Happy Chanukah!
David S.
*Vice President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
*Holder of Cert I, Transport & Logistics
*Bogie Winner 2008 - "Best Contribution to Signalling and Infrastructure"
*Youngest person in 20 years to author four Connex Circulars
*Youngest person ever to sit at the control desk in METROL (I think)
My photos |
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Robbb01
Assistant Commissioner
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Location: The eastern suburbs PB whole, Manningham
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:52 am
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I wasn't quite sure about Merri-Lalor...i thought that a 5 min frequency would need 4 tracks, however i was wrong. Werribee needs the 5 minute frequency because it is a major growth corridoor. The Westall-Melb. Aiport trains will run through Southern Cross, how else will it get across town?
My new website on Melbourne and its public transport network coming sooonnn.
Guy on Airplane: Oh great, I always end up sitting next to a damn baby.
Stewie: What did you just say?
Lois: Stewie, stop fussing.
Stewie: Pipe down Lois. (Slaps guy on head.) Hey big man, turn around. Oh you can't hear me now. I was going to watch the movie, but forget it. For the next 5 hours, you're my smeg.
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Robbb01
Assistant Commissioner
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Location: The eastern suburbs PB whole, Manningham
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:56 am
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Oh yea.....No whittlesea...just Mernda
My new website on Melbourne and its public transport network coming sooonnn.
Guy on Airplane: Oh great, I always end up sitting next to a damn baby.
Stewie: What did you just say?
Lois: Stewie, stop fussing.
Stewie: Pipe down Lois. (Slaps guy on head.) Hey big man, turn around. Oh you can't hear me now. I was going to watch the movie, but forget it. For the next 5 hours, you're my smeg.
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Batman1988
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Last Visited: Dec 26, 2008
Location: Iskenderun railway station, Republic of Hatay
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