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kipioneer
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:13 pm
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| Aaron wrote: | Logging on and logging off the trip... NO CHANCE! Adelaide will now only ever have timed trips, no politician would be brave enough to take it from us.
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From a day's travel on Perth services a couple of weeks ago, this doesn't appear to be a problem in Perth which has a very similar fare system to Adeiiade's, albeit with a greater number of zones (9 instead of 3).
Each bus has reminder signs, and there are default trip prices and other mechanisms in place to determine a fare in case a traveller does not "tag off" one service.
Perth retains paper tickets for casual travellers as I was.
The WA Seniors Card is also a SmartRider card, provided, of course, it has some value on it, so multiple use of cards is possible.
| Quote: | The dumb crouzet system is at least able to tell me with nothing more than a cursory glance what type of ticket it was and how many available trips were left. Even after I'd put it through the wash and or left it in my draw for half a year having forgot it was there. It could also tell me when the current validation I am using expires.
How would you propose to get this info from the highly intelligent dumbcard that cannot tell you anything? |
As with the card tickets in Melbourne travellers need to heed the ticket machine on the vehicle (or at the station) to see what remains on their ticket. So you take your old ticket to the bus or train and try it next time you travel. If you have credit you travel, if not you buy a paper ticket - easy.
Neil - the KIPioneer
Hawthorn SA
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David Peters
Minister for Railways
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: In a black Trans Am!
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:48 pm
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I'm with Aaron, I do not want to log on and have to log off, I want a similar type arrangement to what we have now, use it and it simply deducts one trip from the card, and does this till it runs out. Nothing more than that will do. If they can do it on a piece of card with a magnetic strip on it, surely something similar could be done on a smart card.
National Railway Museum member.
The opinions expressed by my me in these posts is not the opinion of the N.R.M. and should not be construed as such.
Ferroequinologist and Microferroequinologist.
Photosite http://davidpeters950.fotopic.net |
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kipioneer
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:16 pm
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But how does the system know the fare to be charged if we have an essentially 2 level fare structure - 2 section and 2 hour - if it doesn't know where the journey ends?
How, too, do you go to a system system with a 2 section, 1 zone, 2 zone and 3 zone fare which would overcome the present anomaly of a relatively high fare for a trip of 3 to, say, 6 sections?
A flat fare which only tagging on would imply would disadvantage the 2 section travellers.
As I have said, from my limited observations (two paying rail trips and one paying bus trip (the various CAT services are free, and all services in Perth city are free)) it doesn't seem to be a problem in Perth.
As I understand it the Perth system, as do the ones in Singapore and Hong Kong, deals in money, not trips. It needs to know the class of traveller, and the journey made. A value credit is made to the card, not a number of trips and the cost of the trip is debited to the card.
Neil - the KIPioneer
Hawthorn SA
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ET423
Station Staff
Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: behind you
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:08 pm
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| David Peters wrote: | | I'm with Aaron, I do not want to log on and have to log off, I want a similar type arrangement to what we have now, use it and it simply deducts one trip from the card, and does this till it runs out. Nothing more than that will do. If they can do it on a piece of card with a magnetic strip on it, surely something similar could be done on a smart card. |
I think we need 3 types of ticketing;
First Option ; the same tickets to what we use now, with single trips, day trips and multi trips.
- this would be more suited to people like tourists who stay only for a short time and only rarely use public transport
Second Option ; smart card system that operates similar to our current system where users can "log on" and the fare is deducted from their account, when the user runs out of credit, they top their card up at their nearest railway station, or wherever
- this option would be best suited to people who use public transport occasionally and are more likely only going to travel short distances or just between home and work/school/uni/...
Third Option ; a card similar in appearance to the smart card but users pay a monthly/6monthly or yearly fee and for that fee they get unlimited and unrestricted travel across the entire suburban network at any time of the year,
- this would be the best option for people who frequently use public transport and travel long distances or just want to not worry about having to recharge their card.
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Halo
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Aug 01, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 25, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:19 am
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So we aren't talking about RFID tags here are we, The Smart cards I'm aware of would take far longer to use than even the current system. pull it out, insert, wait for read write, then remove. And DONT remove card while data is being transferred!
Surely in this day and age there is some way or using "leave in the wallet/purse" tickets? Otherwise exactly what are the passengers gaining? I'm aware we have run out of machines, but thats no reason these days, patents can be brought for the right price, and new equipment can be built. A shortage of machines alone is simply not reason enough to uproot a system, and its passengers, we all need to gain something...
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leighkay
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:04 am
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| Halo wrote: | So we aren't talking about RFID tags here are we, The Smart cards I'm aware of would take far longer to use than even the current system. pull it out, insert, wait for read write, then remove. And DONT remove card while data is being transferred!
Surely in this day and age there is some way or using "leave in the wallet/purse" tickets? Otherwise exactly what are the passengers gaining? I'm aware we have run out of machines, but thats no reason these days, patents can be brought for the right price, and new equipment can be built. A shortage of machines alone is simply not reason enough to uproot a system, and its passengers, we all need to gain something... |
Totally Agree..
I want something that is credit card sized, but that can be put in a back section of hte wallet and never really need to be taken out. Wither i just walk between a gate and it reads it, or tap my wallet on a machine (as they have in Japan) and it activates.
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kipioneer
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:22 am
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The Perth system uses swipe cards.
And, yes, you can recharge your card with any amount - so you could prepay 6 or 12 months if you wished. There is no particular benefit for doing so, however.
The effect of using the swipe tickets is that each use is at a discounted rate, so, effectively, fares are reduced across the system, but just how many people buy tickets in Adelaide in peak anyway? 5 or 10% by my observation.
Neither do you pay more than a daytripper if you start your journey after 9:00 am or whatever the rules are.
Since the system debits the fare for your journey, and you have paid a deposit for the card, as long as you have credit you can travel, even if you don't actually have enough credit for that last trip.
I don't know what happens to your $10 deposit in Perth when you have finished with the ticket - but then a trip to Mandurah from the city is $8.40 so, if you had $0.10 left for that last trip the deposit would be reduced to $1.70 ($10.00 deposit + $0.10 credit - $8.40 fare)
It isn't complicated, and is easy to use.
Paper tickets are retained for casual use. The existing system in Adelaide would be replaced by something similar to Perth.
Neil - the KIPioneer
Hawthorn SA
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David Peters
Minister for Railways
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: In a black Trans Am!
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:13 pm
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What is actually wrong with using the system we have now but on a different type of card and using better quality validators, base it around the current system and you would not have to change much, just the actual tickets and validators, the way it works is the same, card into the slot, validator reads card, validator activates to remove one trip from the card, it could also print on the card as it does now. In other words it would be a defacto Crouzet system using bigger cards and better technology!
The cards could still be card type instead of plastic and everything is again on the magnetic strip on the card, the validators would then know what type of ticket it is and respond accordingly. No great change for the travelling public but it has to be a lot better than the existing system and not forced to do things that it is not designed to do in the first place! This is also an area that the then STA/TA fouled up the ticket system, they were trying to use it for various other things, like accounting, head counts and probably other things as well! 
National Railway Museum member.
The opinions expressed by my me in these posts is not the opinion of the N.R.M. and should not be construed as such.
Ferroequinologist and Microferroequinologist.
Photosite http://davidpeters950.fotopic.net |
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Pressman
Chief Commissioner
Joined: May 23, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: anywhere between Glenbawn and Pemberton
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:11 pm
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| Halo wrote: | <snip>
Surely in this day and age there is some way or using "leave in the wallet/purse" tickets?
<snip> |
In Brisvegas, Sydknee and Melbonk they have an E-toll system on their toll roads, you have a "tag" (small card type thingie) fixed on inside of your windscreen, simply drive through the toll gate and your account is charged the toll.
There would be no reason this technology couldn't be used / adapted to public transport.
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phower
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Jul 14, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: At Home In Adelaide, Sth Australia
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:20 pm
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| David Peters wrote: | What is actually wrong with using the system we have now but on a different type of card and using better quality validators, base it around the current system and you would not have to change much, just the actual tickets and validators, the way it works is the same, card into the slot, validator reads card, validator activates to remove one trip from the card, it could also print on the card as it does now. In other words it would be a defacto Crouzet system using bigger cards and better technology!
The cards could still be card type instead of plastic and everything is again on the magnetic strip on the card, the validators would then know what type of ticket it is and respond accordingly. No great change for the travelling public but it has to be a lot better than the existing system and not forced to do things that it is not designed to do in the first place! This is also an area that the then STA/TA fouled up the ticket system, they were trying to use it for various other things, like accounting, head counts and probably other things as well! |
Hi david /all
The thing that is /was wrong with the crouzet system ?? where does one start ....
It was sold to the govt by the crouzet people BUT it was already out dated and ready to be placed into the BIN before we bought it , it had so many problems .. far too many to list here in fact ,
They came with a little stick on magnetic strip on the tickets but when it went to tender ,the strip was incorporated on the ticket , how long did it take to find out how to defraud it ???? 30 seconds.........when the ticket was wet , it failed most of the time ... the list has a long history that had to be modified . to try and fix it ....
I could keep on going , but some other time and not on here .
Rail Fan Extrordonaire !!! OAP, ESQ.
Certified Tram Driver
Certified Bus Driver
Licenced Car Driver
Licenced Truck Driver
In Fact I am Certified & Licenced for many things . but not all??
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kipioneer
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:22 pm
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The paradigm of the Perth ticketing system is entirely different to the Adelaide system. There is no need to know the ticket type, whether it is a 2 section or 2 hour ticket - you are debited with what you travel which is the whole point of the ticket.
If you travel 2 sections then you are charged 2 sections at whatever your going rate is; if you travel 2 zones then you are charged for 2 zones.
You don't need to carry a collection of tickets for use at different times - you just carry one.
| David Peters wrote: | | What is actually wrong with using the system we have now but on a different type of card and using better quality validators, base it around the current system and you would not have to change much, just the actual tickets and validators, the way it works is the same, card into the slot, validator reads card, validator activates to remove one trip from the card, it could also print on the card as it does now. In other words it would be a defacto Crouzet system using bigger cards and better technology! |
The Perth system is essentially as you suggest using smart card technology.
| David Peters wrote: | | The cards could still be card type instead of plastic and everything is again on the magnetic strip on the card, the validators would then know what type of ticket it is and respond accordingly. No great change for the travelling public but it has to be a lot better than the existing system and not forced to do things that it is not designed to do in the first place! |
Again that is what you have in Perth except the system doesn't need to know what sort of ticket it is.
| David Peters wrote: | | This is also an area that the then STA/TA fouled up the ticket system, they were trying to use it for various other things, like accounting, head counts and probably other things as well! |
I disagree that it was fouled up.
What exactly is wrong with this? Data about travel is collected essentially free of charge by the system and without lengthy returns by the drivers to the ticket office.
What fouled it up was a government descision to allow school children to travel free which had two effects: overcrowding and the loss of reliable travel statistics without going to the great expense of hiring surveyors to do the job. Fortunately sanity prevailed after a year or so.
Neil - the KIPioneer
Hawthorn SA
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nscaler69
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Jul 25, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 26, 2008
Location: adelaide
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:26 pm
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It would be good when the government chooses the replacement ticketing system, they ask us the user what we want it to do / how we want it to work. eg football express services, instead of showing the driver you members pass you just swipe or scan it. The ticketing system can be incorporated into the football pass. The same thing could be done for the Clipsal 500 car race.
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:54 pm
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| kipioneer wrote: |
Paper tickets are retained for casual use. The existing system in Adelaide would be replaced by something similar to Perth. |
That sounds like the system in Brisbane. It would be good to have magnetic tickets for occassional users.
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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kipioneer
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:57 pm
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| Pressman wrote: | | Halo wrote: | <snip>
Surely in this day and age there is some way or using "leave in the wallet/purse" tickets?
<snip> |
In Brisvegas, Sydknee and Melbonk they have an E-toll system on their toll roads, you have a "tag" (small card type thingie) fixed on inside of your windscreen, simply drive through the toll gate and your account is charged the toll.
There would be no reason this technology couldn't be used / adapted to public transport. |
This would be the ideal way of going about things, with readers at each door but I suspect they would be need to be quite sensitive to pick up a card at a distance of a couple of hundred millimeters, so sensitive that they might be inclined to give a false reading if you even passed it inside the vehicle.
People standing at the doors and in the stair-wells of buses could clock in or out multiple times.
This might be hard to cater for.
Neil - the KIPioneer
Hawthorn SA
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kipioneer
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:02 pm
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | kipioneer wrote: |
Paper tickets are retained for casual use. The existing system in Adelaide would be replaced by something similar to Perth. |
That sounds like the system in Brisbane. It would be good to have magnetic tickets for occassional users. |
Perth's tickets are simple quite plain paper tickets, and certainly no magnetic stripe.
Their ticket machines change notes which is certainly an advance on Adelaide.
Note that the readers for train travel are on the platforms, not the trains. So, too, are the ticket machines each overlooked by a CCTV camera.
Neil - the KIPioneer
Hawthorn SA
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