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djf01
Locomotive Driver
Joined: May 15, 2008
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:59 pm
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| nadnerb_2000 wrote: |
| djf01 wrote: | | 1) By any measure (I repeat *any* measure), Cityrail is an expensive system to operate, and that is largely down to labour costs. |
Agreed that it is expensive. But it's not just CityRail. Rail, as a mode of passenger transport, basically operates at a loss. I also agree that labour is expensive, but by no means the only expensive factor.
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No. CityRail is expensive compared with other comparable Rail systems. It's expensive compared with other modes. It's expensive in terms of PAX/km PAX/year etc. It's expensive in terms of cost recovery levels.
And no, it's not just labour. But labour and staffing levels are both expensive and high by almost any measure too.
It's all very well to say "it's a fact of life", but it's also a fact of life that if you charge over the odds, people are going to ask questions.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | 2) World's best practice is DOO, supported by CCTV (and mostly unstaffed stations too BTW) |
Ok, just to be petulant, I'm going to dispute the "world's best practice" phrase used here. Perhaps it is the most economical in terms of money spent - but that alone doesn't make it best practice. |
Agreed. World's cheapest practice is DOO without CCTV, station staff or any other sort of backup and poorly paid drivers.
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This statement makes me think you are confusing guards with security guards.
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Security is one of the roles and reasons for having guards on trains. A guard provides some measure of security. But it less than that of a full on/full time security guard, which is in turn less than that of a TO, which is in turn less than that of a cop.
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Don't for a second think they're somehow useless in an incident.
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I don't want to suggest for one second that guards are useless, and I apologies to any one who might thought otherwise. All I wanted to say is that a guard isn't - and can never be expected to be - an expert or specialist in dealing with whatever is thrown at them.
As I see it, the big advantage a guard has in dealing with issues is they are on site. But these days, that's less of an advantage than it was even 10 years ago.
| Quote: | | Defibrillators are now in place at bigger stations. |
Cool. I (obviously) didn't know that.
| Quote: | | Quote: | What I think is needed are:
- CCTV cameras
- CCTV monitoring software that can tell if the door is or is not obstructed
- Sensors in the doors that can *accurately* tell if the door has completely closed or not
... |
You've said it's not safer, then immediately turn around and say its safer with a little bit of software and door sensors.
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At the moment, the method of establishing the train's doors are secured is *only* via visual inspection, currently performed by the guard directly.
If other methods are used to supplement, or be supplemented by visual inspection, it is possible to improve the overall safety outcomes even if the quality of visual inspection isn't as high or as comprehensive as it is now.
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What do you know about how well a guard can or can't see? And multiple cameras - tried watching several TVs at once?
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I can tell you, *no-one* can watch 16 doors simultaneously. You might think you can, but that's your brain filling in the blanks with what it "expects" to see.
But I readily concede CCTV is not as good as a pair of eyes in the same spot.
What I don't concede is that a two person crew is the *only* way to provide a suffciently safe system, or one as safe as it is now.
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:23 pm
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The removal of guards on Cityrail trains is not a good idea but DOO may be feasible in a few limited situations, for example if you have a two or three car single deck trains on a lesser used branchline DOO maybe an option. I'm not an expert but would Carlingford at quiter times be an option for this sort of thing? Also if the Kippa Ring line is ever built in Brisbane maybe DOO on the Shorncliffe line could be another option.
I like the idea on Vline and Countrylink of combining the guards role with conductors/passenger attendants.
However I'm not really a fan of the arrangement on the Melbourne trams with a driver locked away in his/her comparment and with a coin only ticket machine. Maybe Melbourne could have a few premium tram routes with conductors in more heavily used times who could amongst other things provide information for visitors, eg route 96.
Also will the Myki tram ticket machines accept notes?
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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tsgsjm
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:21 pm
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| djf01 wrote: | At the moment, the method of establishing the train's doors are secured is *only* via visual inspection, currently performed by the guard directly.
If other methods are used to supplement, or be supplemented by visual inspection, it is possible to improve the overall safety outcomes even if the quality of visual inspection isn't as high or as comprehensive as it is now. |
There is also Traction Interlocking which is visible to the driver, until your TI light goes out you have no traction available.
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:24 pm
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| djf01 wrote: | | nadnerb_2000 wrote: |
| djf01 wrote: | | 1) By any measure (I repeat *any* measure), Cityrail is an expensive system to operate, and that is largely down to labour costs. |
Agreed that it is expensive. But it's not just CityRail. Rail, as a mode of passenger transport, basically operates at a loss. I also agree that labour is expensive, but by no means the only expensive factor.
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No. CityRail is expensive compared with other comparable Rail systems. It's expensive compared with other modes. It's expensive in terms of PAX/km PAX/year etc. It's expensive in terms of cost recovery levels.
And no, it's not just labour. But labour and staffing levels are both expensive and high by almost any measure too. |
CityRail isn't a business, it's a political plaything. That's both good and bad by turns. It's good in that it could potentially achieve goals not centred on profit/loss, that have greater overall community benefits. It's bad in that it lets short term politics set the agenda. CityRail's can't go forwards or backwards on it's own. It's role today is to cause as little embarrassment to the government as possible between election cycles, and to let the pollies trot out a series of feel good announcements come election time.
The current timetable is a case in point. It's geared to cause the least amount of trouble, not to move the most amount of people as quickly as possible. A more aggressive timetable would require more care and attention to make work, so we have the dumb option. CityRail are capable of more, but only ever do so in short bursts (The Olympics, WYD..), timed to make the government look good.
| djf01 wrote: | At the moment, the method of establishing the train's doors are secured is *only* via visual inspection, currently performed by the guard directly.
If other methods are used to supplement, or be supplemented by visual inspection, it is possible to improve the overall safety outcomes even if the quality of visual inspection isn't as high or as comprehensive as it is now. |
No, all the trains now have traction interlocking of the doors, which means that each door is electrically proven to be closed before the train can power. The guard has to confirm that the TI system is satisfied that the doors are closed, and visually inspect the train, before giving the driver the OK to proceed away from a platform.
The TI system can tell that the doors have closed, but can't tell if someone's bag strap, coat, or other appendages are caught in the door. Depending on the type of door, quite a large object can be trapped and the door will still close and release the TI. You can't have it any other way, unless you want hard closing doors without rubbers. If the guard closes the doors and the TI system doesn't show them as closed, the guard has to ascertain the cause and remedy the situation.
Passengers are regularly obstructing and holding open the doors, placing objects to prevent them from closing, or putting stickers across the gap to stop them opening properly. Less often, there can be faults with the door mechanisms themselves or the TI monitoring. The guard then has procedures to follow to isolate the problem, or bypass the TI, after taking extra precautions to ensure that the doors are safely closed. It's a lot quicker and easier to have the guard doing all this stuff than to put it on the driver's plate.
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nadnerb_2000
Chief Commissioner
Joined: May 07, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: between my hat and my shoe soles
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:03 pm
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| djf01 wrote: | | nadnerb_2000 wrote: |
| djf01 wrote: | | 1) By any measure (I repeat *any* measure), Cityrail is an expensive system to operate, and that is largely down to labour costs. |
Agreed that it is expensive. But it's not just CityRail. Rail, as a mode of passenger transport, basically operates at a loss. I also agree that labour is expensive, but by no means the only expensive factor.
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No. CityRail is expensive compared with other comparable Rail systems. It's expensive compared with other modes. It's expensive in terms of PAX/km PAX/year etc. It's expensive in terms of cost recovery levels.
And no, it's not just labour. But labour and staffing levels are both expensive and high by almost any measure too.
It's all very well to say "it's a fact of life", but it's also a fact of life that if you charge over the odds, people are going to ask questions. |
Expensive compared with other comparable systems and other modes huh? Care to back that up with something resembling evidence? I don't deny its expensive, but do you have any idea how many railways make a profit? The Japanese can't do it, except on a few private, short, highly patronised lines, and their ridership figures are staggering.
If you want to ask questions, ask why does cityrail need 30 customer service managers? Especially if you want to remove most of the front line staff that provide customer service.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | 2) World's best practice is DOO, supported by CCTV (and mostly unstaffed stations too BTW) |
Ok, just to be petulant, I'm going to dispute the "world's best practice" phrase used here. Perhaps it is the most economical in terms of money spent - but that alone doesn't make it best practice. |
Agreed. World's cheapest practice is DOO without CCTV, station staff or any other sort of backup and poorly paid drivers. |
Which demonstrates that "cheapest" doesn't mean "best". Not by a long shot.
| Quote: |
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This statement makes me think you are confusing guards with security guards.
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Security is [color="red"]one[/color] of the roles and reasons for having guards on trains. A guard provides some measure of security. But it less than that of a full on/full time security guard, which is in turn less than that of a TO, which is in turn less than that of a cop. |
Its also less than an army platoon with RPG's. Should we get rid of cops because they aren't as good as army units with RPGs and therefore are limited? Because that appears to be your argument. Hell, why don't we hang a nuclear weapon in the streets and detonate it next time theres a street mugging?
And its interesting to see that you didn't address the other issues of security - for instance the fire scenario I threw at you.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
Don't for a second think they're somehow useless in an incident.
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I don't want to suggest for one second that guards are useless, and I apologies to any one who might thought otherwise. All I wanted to say is that a guard isn't - and can never be expected to be - an expert or specialist in dealing with whatever is thrown at them.
As I see it, the big advantage a guard has in dealing with issues is they are on site. But these days, that's less of an advantage than it was even 10 years ago. |
And again you say they aren't experts. Mate - don't post your photo here. You'll never be able to board a train again.
They do 5 months training, minimum. They get experience on the job. They have numerous skills that members of the travelling public do not. 99.9% of the time those skills aren't called on and it's the easiest job in the world. In that other 0.1% of the time - its their training and know-how that solves problems.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
What do you know about how well a guard can or can't see? And multiple cameras - tried watching several TVs at once?
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I can tell you, *no-one* can watch 16 doors simultaneously. You might think you can, but that's your brain filling in the blanks with what it "expects" to see.
But I readily concede CCTV is not as good as a pair of eyes in the same spot.
What I don't concede is that a two person crew is the *only* way to provide a suffciently safe system, or one as safe as it is now. |
I agree, thankfully its not the only way. We also have station staff doing right-aways to assist the guard, which makes it safer than only having a 2 person crew on those busy or curved platforms.
But if you want to get rid of a crewmember - you have to automate the trains, its that simple. A person cannot drive and watch (sometimes breathtakingly idiotic) passengers at the same time.
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:13 pm
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| nadnerb_2000 wrote: | | But if you want to get rid of a crewmember - you have to automate the trains, its that simple. A person cannot drive and watch (sometimes breathtakingly idiotic) passengers at the same time. |
No, automation is clearly not a given. All the DOO operations around the world can't be wrong. They obviously accept the lack of supervision of the platform, lessened security, poorer emergency response, and higher engineering expenses as an acceptable risk, and get on with it. It can be done, it could be done here.
If they ever get a full roll out of ATP, and retire all the pre-Tangara stock, and completely re-write the rules, and crunch the numbers in favour of dragging a few passengers up the platform, it could be a goer.
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DHT
Chief Train Controller
Joined: May 15, 2006
Last Visited: Oct 8, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:32 pm
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At the end of the day, many of nadnerb's arguments are the same that were used when airlines moved from 3 person cockpits to 2 person. Workload utterly too much for 2 people, flight engineers take years to train (much more than a train guard, mind you), flight engineer can ensure safety on a flight, doom and gloom if they were to disappear. Well what happened? Flight engineers disappeared and life moved on. Yes, there is certainly higher risk, but it has been to the greater extent mitigated, and given the number of commercial airline movements a day, the accumulated savings are huge.
nadnerb since you seem to be so keen on asking people to show evidence - please show definitive evidence of a rail system where DOO has been implemented and the crime/injury rates have increased to an unacceptable level.
DOO works, in many systems, without automated trains, so it is not that simple, nadnerb.
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:18 pm
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The thing about aircraft however is that they still have a person or persons in the passenger section (unless they carry less than 20? passengers). The removal of guards on trains will mean that there will be noone who will be able to enter the passenger compartment when the train is moving.
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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DHT
Chief Train Controller
Joined: May 15, 2006
Last Visited: Oct 8, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:49 pm
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | The removal of guards on trains will mean that there will be noone who will be able to enter the passenger compartment when the train is moving. |
Guards don't enter the passenger saloon when a train is moving anyway, so it is a rather moot point.
I don't see the big problem, take a line, say the Illawarra / Eastern subrubs, measure the crimee s and passenger injury statistics for 6 months, trial DOO for six months and compare - if nadnerb and Geoffrey are right then they have nothing to fear from such a test because the numbers will fall on their side. I don't see why CityRail cannot trial this.
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:35 pm
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| DHT wrote: | | GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | The removal of guards on trains will mean that there will be noone who will be able to enter the passenger compartment when the train is moving. |
Guards don't enter the passenger saloon when a train is moving anyway, so it is a rather moot point.
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I've certainly seen them enter the passenger compartment on the Blue Mountains line and they should be able to if there is any trouble or if passengers need assistance.
I've heard that in Melbourne and Adelaide if a wheelchair bound passenger needs to board or alight the driver must get out of their cabin and assist passengers thus causing a greater delay. That maybe ok for branchlines like the Carlingford line but I would not suggest it for more heavily used lines like say the Western line to Penrith.
I've also been told that Transperth have two security guards on board in lieu of guards to provide security and information. Maybe its an idea that could be discussed here for Cityrail. Could someone tell me if this is correct?
Regarding a six month trial on the Eastern Suburbs line I would be worried about the potential trouble within that time although the underground stations are staffed.
With regional/interurban trains it would be good for the guards to be used in a ticket checking/selling role as what occurs on Vline trains.
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:42 pm
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | I've certainly seen them enter the passenger compartment on the Blue Mountains line and they should be able to if there is any trouble |
What do you mean by "trouble"? In the case of something like a fight or similar all I could imagine the guard doing is locking themselves in the cab until TOs or Police arrive 
| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | I've also been told that Transperth have two security guards on board in lieu of guards to provide security and information. Maybe its an idea that could be discussed here for Cityrail. Could someone tell me if this is correct? |
That applies at night (after 7:30pm) when only an infrequent service (30 minutely) operates. At other times they patrol trains at random the same as CityRail transits do.
TransAdelaide has the same arrangement after 7pm each evening, usually with one Passenger Service Attendant and a contract security guard on each train.
" The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
Transport Textbook - My photos at RailPictures.Net |
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pm1225
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Aug 29, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:53 pm
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | I've also been told that Transperth have two security guards on board in lieu of guards to provide security and information. Maybe its an idea that could be discussed here for Cityrail. Could someone tell me if this is correct? |
Yes at night on PTA [Transperth]. Also wheelchairs/disabled requiring assistance boarding etc on Perth suburban network must make a booking in advance [24hrs??]. If no booking is made they may find they have a long wait [during day]. I believe security gaurds usually help out at night if required. .
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Simes_mk2
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:58 pm
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | DHT wrote: | | GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | The removal of guards on trains will mean that there will be noone who will be able to enter the passenger compartment when the train is moving. |
Guards don't enter the passenger saloon when a train is moving anyway, so it is a rather moot point.
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I've certainly seen them enter the passenger compartment on the Blue Mountains line and they should be able to if there is any trouble or if passengers need assistance.
I've heard that in Melbourne and Adelaide if a wheelchair bound passenger needs to board or alight the driver must get out of their cabin and assist passengers thus causing a greater delay. That maybe ok for branchlines like the Carlingford line but I would not suggest it for more heavily used lines like say the Western line to Penrith.
I've also been told that Transperth have two security guards on board in lieu of guards to provide security and information. Maybe its an idea that could be discussed here for Cityrail. Could someone tell me if this is correct?
Regarding a six month trial on the Eastern Suburbs line I would be worried about the potential trouble within that time although the underground stations are staffed.
With regional/interurban trains it would be good for the guards to be used in a ticket checking/selling role as what occurs on Vline trains. |
From what I read after this article was published, it seems the RBTU seem to be open to talking about the role of the guard...
| Quote: | The state secretary of the Rail Tram and Bus Union, Nick Lewocki, said guards provided security for commuters. "We don't think the answer is just removing the guard. The debate has to be what is the role of the guard and can you improve that role?
"On the Illawarra line, there is a bad reputation for assaults. The question is do people feel safe riding the train without someone to call for assistance?" |
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/why-we-cant-afford-the-12b-metro/2008/09/17/1221330929912.html
Thanks for nothing Costa!
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:20 pm
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| pm1225 wrote: | | Also wheelchairs/disabled requiring assistance boarding etc on Perth suburban network must make a booking in advance [24hrs??]. If no booking is made they may find they have a long wait [during day]. |
I'm surprised that that would be accepted in this day and age.
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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nadnerb_2000
Chief Commissioner
Joined: May 07, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: between my hat and my shoe soles
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:34 am
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| DHT wrote: | | At the end of the day, many of nadnerb's arguments are the same that were used when airlines moved from 3 person cockpits to 2 person. Workload utterly too much for 2 people, flight engineers take years to train (much more than a train guard, mind you), flight engineer can ensure safety on a flight, doom and gloom if they were to disappear. Well what happened? Flight engineers disappeared and life moved on. Yes, there is certainly higher risk, but it has been to the greater extent mitigated, and given the number of commercial airline movements a day, the accumulated savings are huge. |
Oh yeah, because a 747 is so similar to a T set. Amazing how often people say "look at airlines" when discussing railways. The daily tele did it to criticise how long it took to train train drivers.
Different kettle of fish here. Diffrerent technologies, different jobs. For one thing, we're not talking 3 crewmembers down to 2 (and flight attendants) - its 2 down to 1. If its necessary to have a crew of 10 or so for 300 passengers on an aircraft, I don't see how a crew of 2 for 1500-2000 passengers is unjustified.
For another thing, historically railways already have cut down on train crew. Once upon a time a passenger train needed 3 crewmembers to go anywhere. Now it's 2 (except for countrylink). They got rid of the second person in the cab on suburban trains when the train stop was invented and loco hauled trains were phased out. More on this later.
| Quote: |
nadnerb since you seem to be so keen on asking people to show evidence - please show definitive evidence of a rail system where DOO has been implemented and the crime/injury rates have increased to an unacceptable level.
DOO works, in many systems, without automated trains, so it is not that simple, nadnerb. |
Funny - you're asking for definitive evidence, yet saying that DOO works without said evidence. How can anyone say it works or doesn't work without the evidence?
The simple fact is - there is very little. Railcorp publishes in detail statistics about its performance, including fatalities etc. I've been searching for half an hour now, and have not found any published figures for melbourne's system. If anyone can point me in the right direction I'd much appreciate it.
I looked at the ABS site, at the Victorian Infrastructure site, Melbourne's connex site - the closest I got was the ABS which had fatality + injury figures for each state for the last 7 years, but as guards in Melbourne were removed before then it is impossible to tell if there was/is a spike in their figures.
What I did find: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24327935-2862,00.html. Though New Ltd is a dubious source and not to be trusted, it would appear that they are having a much bigger problem with security in Melbourne than we are here in Sydney. Not definitive - but something of an indicator that the less staff you have, the more trouble you get.
So I'm using the only proof I have available to me (and significantly more proof than what you've provided) - what I've seen, with my mark 1 eyeballs, whilst performing my work as station staff, guard and driver over the last 4 years. I've seen what can happen after the train doors close. I can tell you its not possible for a driver to watch a train out of a platform at present. Would you drive a car without looking through the windscreen for 160 metres?
So - Some form of automation would solve that problem. Train stops and deadman handles allowed a driver to be up the front alone on the suburban network, but still required the use of a guard. If you are going to remove that person, you need to appropriately modify the working environment again. Automation with an "operator" is quite common, and as we're already getting ATP (assuming Rees doesn't dump it in the mini-budget), automation would really just be an extension of it. If you want DOO, that is a perfectly reasonable way to do it - its how its done on San Francisco's BART system.
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