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MOM
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 3, 2008
Location: here, there, everywhere....
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:04 pm
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In any event this thread is about Mildura, not the Barossa or what the crow eaters are doing or not doing or what they should have done.
Without re-reading this thread IIRC the $70M that is being spent was a miniscule amount compared to the total cost of SG'ing the line.
That's a S**t load of freight that has to be moved even before the BG upgrade breaks even. Fast forward to it being SG'd and it would never recover cost. Narrow view point ...maybe , but the bean counters will always win this one unless a Broken Hill SG connection is made.
The concept of what port handles what cargoes and how it handles them is the prime reason Mildura DOES not require a SG connection.
Prove to me that there is a cargo/freight demand for movement from Mildura to an interstate destination, then I'll agree a SG link would be feasible. Until that happens a BG upgrade is more than adequate.
Oh, before wilfy asks, yes a Pax service will eventually be re-instated. I'm sure Mikelander will be able to fill in the missing pieces.
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YM-Mundrabilla
Chief Commissioner
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Last Visited: Nov 29, 2008
Location: Finke CAR
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:09 pm
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| fabricator wrote: | | MOM wrote: | | What do you propose to do with all the obsolete rolling stock that your idea will create? |
Huh ? There isn't any rolling stock assigned to the Mildura line, but in any case shortening the axle by 6 1/2 inches isn't that hard.
In most cases you'd just swap the entire bogie for rolling stock, and convert the locos.
Point is there is a LOT more SG rolling stock and locos around the country, and thusly a larger pool to select from. If the train breaks down there are also a lot more locos nearby to assist. |
You don't shorten the axle you just push the wheels in (on dual seat axles) and use the same bogie frames but with new brake beams. Costs damned all (like gauge conversion of the track) and the flexibility of more SG wagons could be nothing but good.
YM Mundrabilla
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Reality has been omitted for clarity.
Why is it that there are so many in high places who prefer activity to achievement?
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Bulbous
Locomotive Fireman
Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:57 pm
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i thought the total cost from the Fisher report was that the whole of Victoria could be converted to SG for around $110 million? seems to me to be a pretty cheap thing to manage, with only benefits coming from it.......
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skippy1
Beginner
Joined: May 10, 2008
Last Visited: Oct 2, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:47 pm
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Not too be forgotten is the unpredicatable grain haulage would benefit by having a common gauge across NSW / VIC.
I understand northern NSW is expecting a bumper crop this year, however VIC and southern NSW not too good unless rain falls shortly. Next year could see the reverse.
A common gauge would improve the economics of rail haulage in both states.
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The Vinelander
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:06 am
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| MOM wrote: | | Oh, before wilfy asks, yes a Pax service will eventually be re-instated. I'm sure Mikelander will be able to fill in the missing pieces. |
As stated previously, AFAIK the Mildura pax service will be re-instated incrementally.
Maryborough, first when rolling stock & drivers become available, the driver shortage being the real hiccough.
I know I'll be lampooned, harpooned and generally be made fun of however, when I say St Arnaud will then be the next step as I believe official feelers have been put out, so that's half way.
St Arnaud is a pretty town, with a reasonable population which like Echuca will IMO boom, particularly as a weekend visit once the train eventually runs there.
The northern Pyrenees wineries are local and a great tourism drawcard and its always sunny in the winter. That's always a bonus in a grey overcast Melbourne July
Mike, in Longreach where the clouds have vanished in the heat.
The Vinelander, from Melbourne to Mildura was Victoria's only overnight sleeping car train which was launched 8/8/1972.
Ballan, the best town, on the best railway line, in the best state, of the best country in the World. Currently in Longreach.
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PClark
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Apr 01, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:29 pm
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I think that the current economic climate is going to put the stopper on a lot of these more fanciful expansions.
By re-introducing the Mildura service "incrementally" (first Maryborough, then St Arnaud, then where? Donald? Birchip?) you will wind up with a third world, 80k/h max, all-stations stopper that will have nix appeal to paying passengers to and from Mildura who can aford the alternatives of air or driving.
As for St Arnaud, yes, it's a "pretty" little town but nowhere near as tourist-friendly or compact as Echuca. And, if you're wanting to visit the wineries you'll need a car. No point in just being offloaded at the station.
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The Vinelander
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:00 am
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| PClark wrote: | I think that the current economic climate is going to put the stopper on a lot of these more fanciful expansions.
By re-introducing the Mildura service "incrementally" (first Maryborough, then St Arnaud, then where? Donald? Birchip?) you will wind up with a third world, 80k/h max, all-stations stopper that will have nix appeal to paying passengers to and from Mildura who can afford the alternatives of air or driving.
As for St Arnaud, yes, it's a "pretty" little town but nowhere near as tourist-friendly or compact as Echuca. And, if you're wanting to visit the wineries you'll need a car. No point in just being offloaded at the station. |
True Peter, however this is the case in all areas of tourism regarding wineries. The Yarra valley being a prime example where PT tourism OR day visits by tourists in anything but a private car requires bus transport. The wineries in the Echuca region would also require bus transport for their PT tourists.
IMO, as in the case of the Echuca line, incremental track upgrades will follow the extension of the VLocity services as they branch out towards St Arnaud. The alignment is quite straight and no hills of consequence to worry about.
Others better qualified than I would better understand the infrastructure upgrades required, utilising existing rails to enable higher speeds. Remember, St Arnaud is before the 'black soil' country of the Birchip region, so that won't be a factor.
None of this is tomorrow, and the driver shortage reported during the grand final week needs to be addressed and that takes time.
Mike.
The Vinelander, from Melbourne to Mildura was Victoria's only overnight sleeping car train which was launched 8/8/1972.
Ballan, the best town, on the best railway line, in the best state, of the best country in the World. Currently in Longreach.
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gy
Locomotive Fireman
Joined: Apr 15, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 5, 2008
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:05 am
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Several posts back the economy of the cost of standardizing the track versus destinations of the freight.
True I think we could say with confidence there is not a lot of freight loaded from Mildura to Brisbane on a regular basis. What standard gauge allows is the flexibility of capturing such loads as today we would have to tranship the container or bogie exchange the wagon if such a facility existed. Instantly you can see we have to have bogies of each gauge or two container wagons to ship the one load. In other words near double the dollar investment to achieve the same outcome.
Standard track gauge flows onto the the availability and flexibility of Locomotive use and naturally flows straight into dollar investment as well.
If you pick a figure of 5 million dollars for a new locomotive it is a lot of money to have tied up because for example the Loco. arrives from Mildura and instead of being immediately re-deployed to Hosham on a wheatie we go, Oh! Wrong gauge we shall have to wait until we can find a standard gauge loco.and our Broad gauge loco. sits around all day before going back to Mildura that evening. Not a wise use of your investment.
All pretty obvious examples but as simple as it is if we think of the whole Victorian broad gauge system as locked in that is the situation we are in and have been for that long the Accountants belive it is the normal.
These suttle savings mount up and have to be factored in when we consider the never ending proposal of when will we standardize the majority of the Victorian System.
There are no other transp[ort modes that think these sorts of breaks in the chain are acceptable. Imagine if it applied to the aircraft industry with 747 planes with different under-carriage width that only allowed them to land at Tullermarine and not in London.
THe cost of standardizing the Mildura line will be expensive but we cannot afford not to if Rail is to continue other wise we might as well just pull up the track now.
PTE.
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MOM
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 3, 2008
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:24 am
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Using the demurrage argument, you could then apply the same reasoning to QR and all the coal they move.
Standardise all the coal lines and free up engines & wagons.
Now, wasn't it silly that QR isn't SG, we could freight containers from Mildura to Cairns.
Even if you SG Mildura, no operator is going to LE from Mildura to Melbourne for the day, just so it the engine is working?
It takes a day to get to Mildura.
You could apply similar arguments to all BG Freight in Victoria, none of it stacks up cost wise.
As much as most believe it should be SG, it just isn't cost effective unless it's part of a TOTAL Vic wide SG program. (thats one program I support).
However, to do it without any long term plan is no solution.
Then again the November transport plan might hold a surprise or 2. 
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DalyWaters
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Oct 31, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:27 am
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| Quote: | Without re-reading this thread IIRC the $70M that is being spent was a miniscule amount compared to the total cost of SG'ing the line.
That's a S**t load of freight that has to be moved even before the BG upgrade breaks even. |
The cost to convert is about $10 to 15 million. The annoying thing is that it would have been more economical to do it as part of this upgrade.
| Quote: | The concept of what port handles what cargoes and how it handles them is the prime reason Mildura DOES not require a SG connection.
Prove to me that there is a cargo/freight demand for movement from Mildura to an interstate destination, then I'll agree a SG link would be feasible. |
Don't have to worry about interstate. What about the mineral sands for Hamilton and Portland?
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MD
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 10, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Canbera
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:42 am
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You wont guage convert much for $10-$15 million.
It costs around $100K per KM and thats if the sleepers are in good condition and dont need much replacement.
Unless there is substantial volumes of freight from Mildura that have to go interstate, and I dont know of any, everything else simply goes to destinations within Victoria.
Mineral sands can go to any Victorian port, doesnt have to goto Portland.
You could easily ask why dont the Swan Hill line or the Warnambool line need to be guage converted.
The existing outcome of guage converting lines such as Yaapeet, Hopetoun and Portland simply shows that all that happens is the same trains carrying the same freight keep running but on SG and not BG.
There is no net increase in freight hauled just because the line is now SG.
If there were, you could argue that every line in Australia that currently isnt SG needs to be guage converted.
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richiebogie
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:32 pm
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Perhaps it will only cost $10 million dollars once the 2 in 5 timber sleeper replacement has finished. That would be about $10,000 per kilometer or $10 for every 3 sleepers.
Why not standardise the section from Mildura to Lascelles first, and build the 25km from Hopetoun to Lascelles. This will bypass the hills and make an express route from Mildura to Portland.
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The Vinelander
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:10 pm
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| gy wrote: | Imagine if it applied to the aircraft industry with 747 planes with different under-carriage width that only allowed them to land at Tullamarine and not in London.
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In a way there is a similar analogy to this in the demise of Ansett Airways.
Because they were operating many different aeroplanes, there wasn't the economies of scale by being able to utilise parts from one supplier and the safety and servicing requirements of different aircraft and the specialty knowledge that entailed, was a factor in the demise of that airline.
Mike..
The Vinelander, from Melbourne to Mildura was Victoria's only overnight sleeping car train which was launched 8/8/1972.
Ballan, the best town, on the best railway line, in the best state, of the best country in the World. Currently in Longreach.
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MOM
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 3, 2008
Location: here, there, everywhere....
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:30 pm
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[quote="DalyWaters"]| Quote: |
Don't have to worry about interstate. What about the mineral sands for Hamilton and Portland? |
The processed sand is being bagged and loaded into containers for transhipment to Melbourne where containers can be loaded into any vessel departing to all points of the compass. Don't fall into thinking that this cargo can be bulked into vessels, there just wouldn't be enough to justify the charter of an entire ship, hence it is bagged.
You also need to consider that there may be more than 1 customer for this mineral. Much easier to send 2 container's to China and 1 to India.
You would be waiting a long time to send a bulk shipment of processed minerals to one country/producer.
Agreed, that if there was an existing SG rail line from where it is being quarried/mined/dredged, it would be more economical to use that line.
But there isn't so lets be glad that at least half of the journey is being completed via rail and SG rail as well.
What is standard here is the method of handling cargo.
A point that seems to have gotten lost in this thread.
Containers....because they are standard, train and vessels have been developed to move them. It makes little difference what type of train or vessel it is, they can be moved economically.
As for the aircraft/airport argument..good try but...all planes are different, what is exactly the same are the containers that airlines use.
Like shipping containers, they are interchanged between forwarders as well. Airports share similar facilities, just as Ports, thats where the similarity apart from the container used finishes.
Regardless of whatever argument is used, it comes down to cost, and unless it's in the national interest to SG this line, it ain't going to happen.
Now, how is that upgrade going? 
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MOM
Deputy Commissioner
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:40 pm
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| The Vinelander wrote: | | gy wrote: | Imagine if it applied to the aircraft industry with 747 planes with different under-carriage width that only allowed them to land at Tullamarine and not in London.
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In a way there is a similar analogy to this in the demise of Ansett Airways.
Because they were operating many different aeroplanes, there wasn't the economies of scale by being able to utilise parts from one supplier and the safety and servicing requirements of different aircraft and the specialty knowledge that entailed, was a factor in the demise of that airline.
Mike.. |
Not so.
Ansett was cut loose by Air NZ.
If it was sold to Singapore it would still be flying. (All it needed was management who could run it).
It's fleet was no less similar to Australian/Qantas at the time.
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