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Speed
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Last Visited: Jan 9, 2009
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| Speed |
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:22 am
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I notice from the Age's blog that Doyle was proposing a theme park for the Melbourne CBD.
If the idea of a theme park at Werribee Zoo didn't make the idea, at the start of this thread, of a theme park near Baxter look like enlightened wisdom, Doyle's alleged policy certainly does.
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 10, 2009
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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| mjja |
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:06 pm
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | mjja wrote: | | Stony needs to be electrified |
You didn't answer my question on the last page as to why the line beyond Hastings needs to be kept, let alone electrified. |
No point not doing it really. The marginal cost of keeping the whole thing would be tiny.
| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | mjja wrote: | | simply because economies of scale say that when something is the only one of its kind (in this case, the only diesel outer-suburban service) its costs go through the roof. |
Sounds like the justification for electrifying Hurstbridge in the 1920s - too hard to keep a steam locomotive stationed at Eltham for that service.
Not sure how keeping a few Sprinters down at Frankston for a shuttle to Hastings costs more than electrifying it would. Disadvantage of that arrangement is 40km dead trips to/from Melbourne for changeovers. |
And the diesel fuel. And the messy arrangements with making sure Sprinter-trained drivers are on duty. Etc.
| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | mjja wrote: | | and it will justify more services within 10-15 years. (And realistically, the job won't be done before then anyway!) |
Hastings justifies more than a service every two hours now, not in 10 years.
Train every two hours = non means tested welfare. |
Agree - it should be up to half hourly at least. But what I meant was that it would justify the same level of service as other sparked lines get (ie 15 minute services off peak) within 10-15 years.
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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fogcv
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Dec 06, 2006
Last Visited: Jan 10, 2009
Location: The Burnley Group
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:06 pm
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| Metro Transit wrote: | | comeng301M wrote: | | The main problem with Southern Bayside and Mornington Peninsula, is it's secure Labour Seats around here which doesn't help. |
How is that a problem? Frankston is a labor seat, although the seat of Hastings is a Liberal seat, State and Federally. |
Hastings (Legislative Assembly) is marginal, held by Liberals. Frankston (Legislative Assembly) is marginal, held by ALP.
Frankston 2.55% swing required.
Hastings 1.84% swing required.
This contributes to why Hastings has a train service and not a desalination plant.
The Ghost of (Sir) John Monash (Circa 1931)
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 31, 2008
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| Somebody in the WWW |
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:15 pm
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| mjja wrote: | | No point not doing it really. The marginal cost of keeping the whole thing would be tiny. |
Do you have any per-km figures handy for how much it costs to electrify, and also in this case upgrade (re-sleeper, etc) a line?
I'm curious how much it would cost to do the 10km of line beyond Hastings.
Another question, let's assume that there was only electrification to Greensborough, and there were proposals to take it further to Eltham. Would your group be in support of taking the wires further from Eltham to Hurstbridge if it were not already electrified?
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 10, 2009
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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| mjja |
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:50 pm
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Let's not cloud the issue with the Hurstbridge analogy. The question is about the marginal cost of 30km electrification scheme vs a 20km one - and whether the value of the service justifies the extra.
Let's assume it stays single track beyond Long Island Junction, with a second platform at Stony Point. Cost: wires, track repairs and a platform. My estimate: $35m.
Let's also assume sparks can get up the hill slightly better than either locos or DMUs, saving about two minutes off the total running time. That gives us easily enough time to run a half hourly service all the way to Stony without passing loops. That's probably a good frequency to run Stony trains at anyway. Running to Hastings would take two trains, running to Stony three.
And the alternative is to put a permanent bus route down there. Let's assume it will also run every half hour (meeting every train). A single bus could maintain the timetable, but could it carry the number of passengers? I think it highly unlikely. There's usually about 20 people getting on the train at Stony itself (not counting gunzels) and more at Crib Point and Mooradoo. It would need two buses - how inefficient is that?
And what about the future - do you think scientists might one day discover life outside of Hastings? Shock horror, we might one day discover that it would have been better to plan for the future, not the present.
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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ZH836301
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 30, 2008
Location: BleakCity
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:45 am
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Craigieburn was $115 million for an equivalent distance - serving a growing population of what, several times that of anything past Hastings already.
Hell, the direct catchment past Hastings wouldn't hit double k.
And what's the point of sparking for a half-hourly service? Waste of money.
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Metro Transit
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 08, 2006
Last Visited: Jan 9, 2009
Location: Stony Point Line & Frankston in Zone 3
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| Metro Transit |
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:58 am
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| fogcv wrote: | | Metro Transit wrote: | | comeng301M wrote: | | The main problem with Southern Bayside and Mornington Peninsula, is it's secure Labour Seats around here which doesn't help. |
How is that a problem? Frankston is a labor seat, although the seat of Hastings is a Liberal seat, State and Federally. |
Hastings (Legislative Assembly) is marginal, held by Liberals. Frankston (Legislative Assembly) is marginal, held by ALP.
Frankston 2.55% swing required.
Hastings 1.84% swing required.
This contributes to why Hastings has a train service and not a desalination
plant. |
They would never build a desalination plant out here, no one would want to drink the water from Westernport Bay. 
Metro.
Metro Transit - For King and Country
Minister for Cultural Affairs and the Arts
The next station is Spencer Street
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fogcv
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Dec 06, 2006
Last Visited: Jan 10, 2009
Location: The Burnley Group
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:40 am
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| Metro Transit wrote: | | fogcv wrote: |
This contributes to why Hastings has a train service and not a desalination
plant. |
They would never build a desalination plant out here, no one would want to drink the water from Westernport Bay.
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Hastings and Werribee were on Melbourne Water's short list of desalination sites, before the last election.
The Ghost of (Sir) John Monash (Circa 1931)
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wongm
Minister for Railways
Joined: May 26, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 1, 2009
Location: Geelong, Victoria
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| wongm |
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:52 pm
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| Metro Transit wrote: | | They would never build a desalination plant out here, no one would want to drink the water from Westernport Bay. |
Isn't the planned desalination plant to use reverse osmosis technology? If it is, then you could connect the input to a sewer and you wouldn't be able to notice the difference at the other end.
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fogcv
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Dec 06, 2006
Last Visited: Jan 10, 2009
Location: The Burnley Group
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:30 pm
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| wongm wrote: | | Metro Transit wrote: | | They would never build a desalination plant out here, no one would want to drink the water from Westernport Bay. |
Isn't the planned desalination plant to use reverse osmosis technology? If it is, then you could connect the input to a sewer and you wouldn't be able to notice the difference at the other end. |
Correct and Correct. Ask the people in Toowoomba what they are getting soon.
The Ghost of (Sir) John Monash (Circa 1931)
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bevans
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 11, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 9, 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| bevans |
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:59 pm
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| mjja wrote: |
Let's assume it stays single track beyond Long Island Junction, with a second platform at Stony Point. Cost: wires, track repairs and a platform. My estimate: $35m. |
I would have thought that would do it. A small amount of money in the scheme of things. You would also need some loops on the route electrified.
It is only a matter of time before electrification reaches the point. If you look at the mount of money being proposed on road works by brumby, then this amount is very modest.
Victoria needs to stop talking about it and start doing it!
Regards,
Brian
RP2 - Project Director
The Hon Peter Garrett, every performance a sell-out!
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 31, 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:31 pm
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You'd only ever have a chance of seeing overhead beyond Hastings for political reasons - similar to how Rosewood got the wires in 1993 and still only gets a 60 minute frequency for it's immediate catchment pop of 7,400.
I'd suggest reading Phin's Economics of Electrification series if you haven't already.
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bevans
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 11, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 9, 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| bevans |
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:47 pm
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | I'd suggest reading Phin's Economics of Electrification series if you haven't already. |
Interesting article. Being a resident of the peninsula, I can relate to increased services that electrification would bring. The perception is that a cleaner, electrified service past Frankston would be preferred by the locals. I would like to see 30min services on the line.
Could Connex increase services now using sprinter services?
Regards,
Brian
RP2 - Project Director
The Hon Peter Garrett, every performance a sell-out!
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 10, 2009
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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