Liberal transport plan

 
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Considering that there is no truck/car bypass of Adelaide the hills project does have merit.
When i drove back and forth to Elizabeth as i shocked at how many trucks run on the small Adelaide Roads.
IMHO Adelaide is Australia's most beautiful Mayor City, yet lack of new PT and the Hills By-Pass are Chocking it.
I also don't buy into this time sensitive argument how many hours are spent watching telly or surfing the Internet now a days)

(I ride my pushy most places from West Footscray and even bet my mate from Richmond back to home during peak hour.)
"luznug"


luznug, a "hills" bypass for trucks and cars?
I have often driven from the Barossa (Angaston/Nuriootpa) to Goolwa (via Mount Barker) and gone nowhere near the metro area, Likewise from the Barossa to Murray Bridge and places beyond. There are a number of good roads to do this (and yes there is a fair swag of semi's and B-doubles that use them)
One thing I find amusing is peoples lack of knowledge about some freight.
Just because there are lots of trucks traveling into (and out) of Adelaide to the south and also to the north does not mean the same trucks and loads are simply passing through Adelaide.
You need to look at where they are going, a lot of through truck traffic already by-passes the metro area.
Did you know there is a substantial amount of truck traffic that originates in suburbs like Richmond (just west of the city), Hindmarsh, Croydon. Not to mention areas like Regency Park, Gilman, Wingfield, Woodville North and the Le Fevre Peninsula.

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  luznug Banned

Location: Banned

One thing I find amusing is peoples lack of knowledge about some freight.
"Pressman"


I don’t care about knowledge of Freight because I try and use my questions on a Social Level.
It not just Transport and Roads Ministers with Private Transport Companies that hold sway on these decisions.
So I will use, Health, Education, Environment, Community Services Ministers Portfolio’s to try and Push my Request Along.

Socially we need to look at removing heavy Trucks from Residential Streets that’s my angles and now I ride a lot I see the benefits in slower speed limits.
Adelaide has to get serious not worry not being Melbourne or Sydney.
Be Adelaide and Make Adelaide the Most Liveable City in Australia….
spoken and written by A Luznug for the Yes we Can Party
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
How many vehicles that use the mega construction of the Sth/Eastern freeway stay in the Adelaide Hills up to Mt Barker area's
Then how many vehicles carry on as far as Murray Bridge/ Tailem Bend?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Luznug how are you going to get new furniture or something delivered to your house, if you remove trucks from residential streets, you are going to cut your own throat on that one!

Not everyone has a car and trailer, and things could get worse car wise in the future, so you may have to depend on trucks delivering stuff! They don't drive down your street to annoy you, they drive there because they are delivering something! 8)
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
Gentlemen stop confusing the question.
Europe/America i guess are all First World Countries (like Oz?) and they have Industry Hubs removed from Urban Areas.

To say a delivery Van is a B Double is a typical 'Today Tonight' Answer.

I don't want to discuss the Ring Road unless you have positive input.
Or i my terms and Conditions if you have never lived in a real First World Country don't reply.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
How many vehicles that use the mega construction of the Sth/Eastern freeway stay in the Adelaide Hills up to Mt Barker area's
Then how many vehicles carry on as far as Murray Bridge/ Tailem Bend?
"luznug"

OK these figures are from Transport SA http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/facts_figures/traffic_volumes.asp and are dated 17th August 2008.
First the figures are per 24 hour period for total commercial vehicles in BOTH directions
Feeders:-
Portrush Rd (north of Glen Osmond Rd) 2,100
Cross Road (West of Glen Osmond Rd) 1,000
Glen Osmond Rd (city side of Portrush/Cross Rds) 1,200
South Eastern Freeway (interchanges) :-
Toll Gate to Crafers 3,500
Crafers to Striling 3,500
Striling to Bridgewater 3,200
Bridgewater to Verdun 3,100
Verdun to Mount Barker 2,400
Mount Barker to Murray Bridge (West) 2,000
Murray Bridge (West) to Swanport 1,550
Swanport to Murray Bridge (East) 1,700
Murray Bridge (East) to Tailem Bend 1,800
Dukes Hwy (south east of TB) 1,300
Mallee Hwy (East of TB) 240
Princes Hwy (South of TB) 220
  code red Locomotive Driver

Express to Blackwood, then Belair, Bridgewater, Mt Barker (Could be done in 52 minutes (A TA driver reckons that the fastest/safest time from Adelaide to Belair -express- could be done in around 22 minutes)
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Gentlemen stop confusing the question.
Europe/America i guess are all First World Countries (like Oz?) and they have Industry Hubs removed from Urban Areas.

To say a delivery Van is a B Double is a typical 'Today Tonight' Answer.

I don't want to discuss the Ring Road unless you have positive input.
Or i my terms and Conditions if you have never lived in a real First World Country don't reply.
"luznug"

Firstly, who mentioned Europe and America (presume you mean USA and Canada)?

Secondly, Industry Hubs have two functions:-
(a) A source/destination for Transport
(b) a place of employment, the very reason for urban development (residential developemnt)

Thirdly, go for a walk down to your local supermarket / mall
Woolies ........ deliveries by semi trailer
Coles ........... deliveries by semi trailer
Macdonalds ... deliveries by semi trailer
Hungry Jacks .. deliveries by semi trailer
Myer/David Jones ... deliveries by semi trailer
your local IGA or Foodland ....... guess what ....... deliveries by semi trailer

Now don't go saying it isn't so ....... Because it is so, and it's happening every day.

Sure get those trucks off the road ....... then wait for the howls because your local supermarket doesn't have anything on their shelves!

Ring Road? isn't that a freeway in Melbourne?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Yes ........ Stop confusing the Question

Liberal Party Transport Plan Fact or Political Spin?
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
How many vehicles that use the mega construction of the Sth/Eastern freeway stay in the Adelaide Hills up to Mt Barker area's
Then how many vehicles carry on as far as Murray Bridge/ Tailem Bend?
"luznug"

OK these figures are from Transport SA http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/facts_figures/traffic_volumes.asp and are dated 17th August 2008.
First the figures are per 24 hour period for total commercial vehicles in BOTH directions
Feeders:-
Portrush Rd (north of Glen Osmond Rd) 2,100
Cross Road (West of Glen Osmond Rd) 1,000
Glen Osmond Rd (city side of Portrush/Cross Rds) 1,200
South Eastern Freeway (interchanges) :-
Toll Gate to Crafers 3,500
Crafers to Striling 3,500
Striling to Bridgewater 3,200
Bridgewater to Verdun 3,100
Verdun to Mount Barker 2,400
Mount Barker to Murray Bridge (West) 2,000
Murray Bridge (West) to Swanport 1,550
Swanport to Murray Bridge (East) 1,700
Murray Bridge (East) to Tailem Bend 1,800
Dukes Hwy (south east of TB) 1,300
Mallee Hwy (East of TB) 240
Princes Hwy (South of TB) 220
"Pressman"



Commercial Vehicles over 24hrs

Mount Barker to Murray Bridge (West) 2,000
Swanport to Murray Bridge (East) 1,700

I prefer having higher statistics so I will use all Easterly arriving Vehicles between Mt Barker-Murray Bridge not (Swanport) bypassing traffic?

3,700 @ 40 tonnes a vehicle is 152,000 tonnes a day that would be on the bypass.
That’s 50 trains a day @ 3000 tonnes a train (does this sound about right?)

With these statistics from the Transport Government site it has 7400 [Tailem Bend] 10500 [Murray Bridge] East/West over 24hrs.

10500-3,700 is 6,800 that’s a hefty reduction in traffic on the commuter road called the South Eastern Freeway

If we say the 6,800 vehicles are all 1 Tonne Rodeos while the 3700 vehicles are 40 tonne tanks the statistics take a new form.

A little calculation here…so that’s 6,800 tonnes minus 152,000 tonnes.
That makes -145,200 tonnes of wear and tear over 24hrs on the Commuter Road called the South Eastern Freeway.


Laughing Shoot it down  Laughing
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
I think you may have mistook the figures luznug
There are three interchanges West to East
1. Murray Bridge (west) located west of the town
2. Swanport located south of the town
3. Murray Bridge (East) located east of the town (and river)

so we get .............

2,000 -- West Interchange -- 1,550 -- Swanport -- 1,700 -- East Interchange -- 1,800
In a nut shell ..............
450 vehicles leave/enter the freeway at the west interchange
150 vehicles leave/enter at Swanport
100 vehicles leave enter at the East Interchange
That is the 1,500 quoted are part of the 2,000 quoted

Maximum vehicles in the area is 2,000!

The link I quoted gives both total, and commercial only figures, I have quoted commercial only.
  DF4D-0130 Junior Train Controller

G'day Pressman!

It would be interesting if you can get the through traffic figures for the ALF site at Callington from the Culway, and if you can find the information for the heavy vehicles through the Monteith C/S for a 24 hour period.  

I will ask a couple of questions from my end of my contacts about heavy vehicle flows to see if we can get some more information on the matter.  

I know that Portrush and Cross Roads are now preferred options over South Road for travelling across town.  People are still avoiding South Road and using other roads to get across town.  For example, brick trucks from Golden Grove that are going south go via Portrush and Cross Roads to go to the southern suburbs.  Going this way is about a 10 minute time saving.  Over the course of the day, this can be the difference between getting another load or missing out.  

Ding.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

G'day Luznug

Even discounting you wonky figures it does show that there are many vehicles that should be off the road and replaced by rail. That is really the best bypass Adelaide or Melbourne can have.

As Tony says we still need heavy vehicles on the roads for ordinary door to door deliveries.

Neither political party has addressed rail freight. We have major warehouses, like Coles or Woolorths without rail access. We have a new glass works built away from rail access. Who pays for the upgrading of the roads required by their heavy vehicles?

On another topic I raised that sand used to be carted by rail. We now have a heavy B double transporting sand across the city, you can see the ruts in the tarmac surface caused by these vehicles, who pays? Neither party has the whit to address this issue.

We have grain receival bunkers built away from rail.

No party has addressed the issue of developers openning up land without any thought of public transport access.

NO PARTY IN SA HAS A REAL PUBLIC TRANSPORT PLAN. Electrifying an inadequate suburban rail network is only lip service.

Luznug. Don't try and impose what might be appropriate for Melbourne on Adelaide. But thanks all the same for the complements to our dead end city.

Regards
Ian
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
Hmm all right, but if we can convert vehicles to Tonnes its more realistic.

2000 trucks @ 40 tonnes (good central figure) is 80,000 tonnes removed from the S/E

So removing all this Road Tonnage and calculating like Rail we have 80,000 tonnes a day heading into Adelaide from Murray Bridge.
If my calculations are correct then 80,000 on the ARTC calculator would amount to this;

Variable Price per 000’ GTK is 2.950.
Divide by 1000 gives us .00295 cents a tonne kilometre.
Or 41c a tonne over the entire 140 kilometre bypass.
Then to give Heavy Vehicles a false victory we can use ARTC’s Flagfall price discrepancy by taxing cars/buses at a higher rate then Trucks.
I have divided the flagfall prices by 1000.  
cars $2.266 [passenger] and trucks $1.789 [Express Freight] so that’s 32c toll for Cars/Buses and a 25c toll for Commercial over the entire Bypass

Average B-double is 80 tonnes?
That's 32.80 for the tonnage plus .25 toll.
Total $33.05

Lowest toll is One tonne 41c + Flagfall

Does this make any sense
Total 73c LaughingLaughingLaughing
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
G'day Luznug

Even discounting you wonky figures it does show that there are many vehicles that should be off the road and replaced by rail. That is really the best bypass Adelaide or Melbourne can have.

As Tony says we still need heavy vehicles on the roads for ordinary door to door deliveries.

Neither political party has addressed rail freight. We have major warehouses, like Coles or Woolorths without rail access. We have a new glass works built away from rail access. Who pays for the upgrading of the roads required by their heavy vehicles?

On another topic I raised that sand used to be carted by rail. We now have a heavy B double transporting sand across the city, you can see the ruts in the tarmac surface caused by these vehicles, who pays? Neither party has the whit to address this issue.

We have grain receival bunkers built away from rail.

No party has addressed the issue of developers openning up land without any thought of public transport access.

NO PARTY IN SA HAS A REAL PUBLIC TRANSPORT PLAN. Electrifying an inadequate suburban rail network is only lip service.

Luznug. Don't try and impose what might be appropriate for Melbourne on Adelaide. But thanks all the same for the complements to our dead end city.

Regards
Ian
"steam4ian"


I am only talking about a road bypass that trucks must use Wink of course rail may build a line also.

Chill on the Melbourne Adelaide Dig, it was more to do with the general comment about...Not enough people or not enough traffic to build something necessary.

so get me started on higher road speed limits on the S/E
Maybe start with the French 130km/h
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.
G'day Luznug

Even discounting you wonky figures it does show that there are many vehicles that should be off the road and replaced by rail. That is really the best bypass Adelaide or Melbourne can have.

As Tony says we still need heavy vehicles on the roads for ordinary door to door deliveries.

Neither political party has addressed rail freight. We have major warehouses, like Coles or Woolorths without rail access. We have a new glass works built away from rail access. Who pays for the upgrading of the roads required by their heavy vehicles?

On another topic I raised that sand used to be carted by rail. We now have a heavy B double transporting sand across the city, you can see the ruts in the tarmac surface caused by these vehicles, who pays? Neither party has the whit to address this issue.

We have grain receival bunkers built away from rail.

No party has addressed the issue of developers openning up land without any thought of public transport access.

NO PARTY IN SA HAS A REAL PUBLIC TRANSPORT PLAN. Electrifying an inadequate suburban rail network is only lip service.

Luznug. Don't try and impose what might be appropriate for Melbourne on Adelaide. But thanks all the same for the complements to our dead end city.

Regards
Ian
"steam4ian"

Steam4ian,luznug, Pressman.

I have been watching this discussion with great interest.

Where I live on the Central Coast of NSW, Woolworths built a Large Warehouse at Warnervale between the F3 freeway and the Railway line.

All their stock goes by road.

I work at Sanitarium health foods at Berkeley vale on the Central Coast and the main North Railway Line passes our distribution centre, but no adjoining loop, of course.

The Road Transport Lobby group in this country have too large a hold on the freight business so for it to change, Rail transport companies are going to have to lobby companies like Woolworths, Coles and Sanitarium Health foods to get the business to go by Rail.

There is a few problems with this as there are many things that effect freight, one of them being time sensitive situations.

Our loads out of Berkely Vale have a time slot at the arrival end and for rail to be used, Transport hubs with smaller, faster trucks would be necessary to acheive the current timeslots.

To me it is very complicated and I am not sure whether Freight will ever return fully to Rail.

You are correct in saying if the Adelaide Hills is bypassed for Freight movement, then a decent Public Transport service could be installed in the Adelaide Hills.

But as I have been told by many Rail infastructure is very expensive, so you have to ask will these proposed changes ever happen.

Regards,
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
G'day Pressman!

It would be interesting if you can get the through traffic figures for the ALF site at Callington from the Culway, and if you can find the information for the heavy vehicles through the Monteith C/S for a 24 hour period.  

Ding.
"DF4D-0130"

The figures I quoted above all come from this Transport SA page > http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/facts_figures/traffic_volumes.asp
scroll down and select the area maps you want, rural or metro.
Just beware you need to select between "Total Traffic" and "Commercial Vehicles" BEFORE you select the maps

luznug you can't assume that ALL truck traffic can be diverted off the freeway to a by-pass or rail.
Also you allow 40 tonnes per vehicle, I doubt you'd find many trucks loaded to the max, also I drive a commercial vehicle and it'd be lucky to drag a single tonne (of load) up that road

G'day Wilfy
Yes seems a common design for Woolies
Woolies distribution centre at Monarto South has the freeway on one side and the DIRN on the other boundary fence, yet NO rail access was ever planned or allowed for in the future.
I find it amusing as the site was chosen because of the two transport corridors, also because it was de-centralized and offered potential employment opportunities for the near-by city of Murray Bridge.
The State government offered "incentives" also.
Even more amusing was that the State Government built a complete Freeway interchange not long after the centre was established (at a cost of some $1.4m) NOT for the centre, but for access to the nearby Monarto open range Zoo! This exit from the freeway just happens to go straight past the Woolies centre by shear coincidence!  Rolling Eyes

Outside Wodonga in Victoria there is also a Woolies (Safeway) distribution centre, bounded by the Hume Hwy on one side, and the Melbourne - Albury rail line on the other (now DIRN).
Strangely massive road works also occurred near the site where the Murray Valley Hwy intersects the Hume Hwy

Edit: Also of interest Wilfy, is a certain company that runs it's own trains straight past these two distribution centres has Woolies as a major client ........ Woolies freight goes straight passed and then gets trucked BACK to the distribution centres! Shocked
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned

luznug you can't assume that ALL truck traffic can be diverted off the freeway to a by-pass or rail.
Also you allow 40 tonnes per vehicle, I doubt you'd find many trucks loaded to the max, also I drive a commercial vehicle and it'd be lucky to drag a single tonne (of load) up that road
"Pressman"


Well i will lobby for all Semi/Doubles heading to the areas North of Adelaide to use the Bypass.

(I sometimes wish we had no freight trains and all the lines where dirt tracks like the logging roads in WA where trucks can tarvel at 130k/h.
Then cars can travel at 200km/h on truck free roads.



LaughingLaughingLaughing
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
I believe i am completely wrong with my calculations.
If the Variable price per '000k GTK is $2.95
What is it at 1GTK?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

G'day Luznug

1GTK is most likely 1 Gross Tonne Kilometre.

It could also be one Giga Tonne Kilometre but I doubt it.

Regards
Ian
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

G'day all

Regarding warehousing etc and Wilfies observations. This seems to be a pattern in this country caused by the separation of the rail operators from the freight handlers. One just operates trains, the other forwards freight.

Railways used to walk away from LCLs now they are not interested in LTLs. Hence up to half a train of Woolies loading will pass Woolworths at Monarto because it is too much trouble to break up a train.

At least in this country freight is going by rail. There is almost no freight on rail in the UK.

As I said before. No government has a real policy.

Regards
Ian
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
G'day all

Regarding warehousing etc and Wilfies observations. This seems to be a pattern in this country caused by the separation of the rail operators from the freight handlers. One just operates trains, the other forwards freight.

Railways used to walk away from LCLs now they are not interested in LTLs. Hence up to half a train of Woolies loading will pass Woolworths at Monarto because it is too much trouble to break up a train.

At least in this country freight is going by rail. There is almost no freight on rail in the UK.

As I said before. No government has a real policy.

Regards
Ian
"steam4ian"


But when does the cost of breaking up a train outweigh the cost of trucking that loading some extra 100kms back to the wharehouse?
  dvdplaza Chief Train Controller

If you need faster running times improve the track
"steam4ian"
Which has already been planned and about to start?
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
G'day Luznug

1GTK is most likely 1 Gross Tonne Kilometre.

It could also be one Giga Tonne Kilometre but I doubt it.

Regards
Ian
"steam4ian"


Lets say its a Gross Tonne Kilometer.

So it 2.95 per 000' gross tonnes kilolmetres

.00295c for 1 gross tonne kilometer.

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