Curing the current problem.....without major works

 
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
Ok guys...
i think that at the moment with the current way our government is we need to work out ways to cure our problems with the rail network the way it currently is. So I was thinking and we could
-Through route the Frankston and Werribee services all day, everyday like it is currently planned. Trains would run every 10 minutes in interpeak.
-Create a 5 minute frequency in peak and interpeak on the Pakenham Line. We would do this by running the Cranbourne Service as a shuttle which comes every 15 minutes and runs from Dandenong to Cranbourne. The Gippsland V-line services would also need to terminate at Pakenham and V-line coach could replace them or passengers would need to get onto a suburban train.
-Do the same for the Sydenham line. The Melton line could be a shuttle to Sunshine (i dont know how often it could run)
-Do they same for the Craigieburn Line
-Run the Upfield Line every 10 minutes in interpeak
-Run Williamstown-Newport as a full time shuttle
-Run Alamein-Camberwell as a full time shuttle
-Run the Epping/Greensborough services every 15 minutes interpeak.
-Run the Lilydale every 10 minutes and into the city look interpeak
-Run the Belgrave direct to Flinders Street every 10 minutes interpeak.
-Run the Glen Waverly every 10 minutes interpeak into the city look.


Any comments....discussions?

Sponsored advertisement

  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
The simplest solution?



Pump Melbourne's food and drinking water supplies full of LSD. Everyone will be so #@%$ed up they won't notice if their train is late, cancelled, stolen, derailed, upside-down, or on fire. Laughing
  Turi Beginner

Absolute RUBBISH!
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Absolute RUBBISH!
"Turi"


What:

The original post.

Wongm's suggestion about the LSD or

The 'service' we have now   Very Happy

Could be all three for all I know - but somebody needs to do something....
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around

-Through route the Frankston and Werribee services all day, everyday like it is currently planned. Trains would run every 10 minutes in interpeak.

-Create a 5 minute frequency in peak and interpeak on the Pakenham Line. We would do this by running the Cranbourne Service as a shuttle which comes every 15 minutes and runs from Dandenong to Cranbourne. The Gippsland V-line services would also need to terminate at Pakenham and V-line coach could replace them or passengers would need to get onto a suburban train.

Why should LaTrobe Valley passengers have to change to a coach or slow suburban service? If we are to run interurban and intercity trains, we need dedicated express tracks. Simple as that.

-Do the same for the Sydenham line. The Melton line could be a shuttle to Sunshine (i dont know how often it could run)

-Do they same for the Craigieburn Line

-Run the Upfield Line every 10 minutes in interpeak
You can't run a 10 minute service to Upfield currently. IN fact, you can't even currently run a 15 minute service. The single-line section between Gowrie and Upfield, combined with the single platform at Upfield mean it's not possible. You would have to terminate every second train at Gowrie or Coburg.

-Run Williamstown-Newport as a full time shuttle
Right now you have well breached capacity of the Northern Loop. 10tph SDM, 10tph UFD and 10tph CGB = 30tph. The loop wont be able to handle that, nor would Flinders Street have sufficient capacity
-Run Alamein-Camberwell as a full time shuttle
-Run the Epping/Greensborough services every 15 minutes interpeak.
-Run the Lilydale every 10 minutes and into the city look interpeak
-Run the Belgrave direct to Flinders Street every 10 minutes interpeak.
-Run the Glen Waverly every 10 minutes interpeak into the city look.

Also, not that to do this you will need to buy a substantially larger fleet of trains. We can't support this many off peak services as it is. There would be no time for trains to have maintenance carried out. The theory is good, but it's not a "cheap" solution as you suggest.
"Robbb01"


OK I'll bite... comments in blood red!
  comeng301M Chief Commissioner

Location: Melbourne, VIC
Pipe Dreams! The DOT is full them. You gotta spend money to make money
  712M Chief Commissioner

[quote="Robbb01"]-Through route the Frankston and Werribee services all day, everyday like it is currently planned. Trains would run every 10 minutes in interpeak.[/quote]

It would be a lot easier if there was a crossover from 10 to 9A East, so the service could use platforms 10 or 12 with out passing through another platform. Otherwise it would work well with trains running express Caulfield to South Yarra and Newport to Laverton (Run the Altona line as a shuttle from Newport to Laverton)

[quote="Robbb01"]-Create a 5 minute frequency in peak and interpeak on the Pakenham Line. We would do this by running the Cranbourne Service as a shuttle which comes every 15 minutes and runs from Dandenong to Cranbourne. [/quote]

Alternate trains starting and terminating at Pakenham and Westall off-peak, have all services start/terminate at Pakenham during peak times. Use 4 x 3 car Comengs to run the shuttle between Dandenong and Pakenham. A fourth platform would be required at Dandenong so the Cranbourne service is isolated from Pakenham/Gippsland service.

[quote="Robbb01"]The Gippsland V-line services would also need to terminate at Pakenham and V-line coach could replace them or passengers would need to get onto a suburban train.[/quote]

2 services an hour could fit into the timetable but no doubt a very slow service would be expected (But compare that to coaches on the Princes Hwy!)

[quote="Robbb01"]-Do the same for the Sydenham line. The Melton line could be a shuttle to Sunshine (i dont know how often it could run)[/quote]

Run Sydenham service every 5 minutes.

There is no such thing as the "Melton line", but squashing people from the "Ararat line" onto the already crowded Sydenham line would not work. Just run Ararat/Ballarat through to Southern Cross.

[quote="Robbb01"]-Do they same for the Craigieburn Line [/quote]

Albury-Wodonga will use the Albion to Jacana SG line, Seymour trains could run to Essendon. Run Craigieburn trains every 10 minutes.

[quote="Robbb01"]-Run the Upfield Line every 10 minutes in interpeak[/quote]

Run the Upfield line every 10 minutes at all times.

[quote="Robbb01"]-Run Williamstown-Newport as a full time shuttle[/quote]

Create a third platform at Newport to isolate the service from Werribee/Frankston. Run the Williamstown service every 10 minutes.

[quote="Robbb01"]-Run Alamein-Camberwell as a full time shuttle[quote="Robbb01"]

Run the service every 10 minutes.

[quote="Robbb01"]-Run the Epping/Greensborough services every 15 minutes interpeak.[/quote]

How frequent will Eltham/Hurstbridge get trains?

[quote="Robbb01"]-Run the Lilydale every 10 minutes and into the city look interpeak
-Run the Belgrave direct to Flinders Street every 10 minutes interpeak.
[/quote]

Run them both into the loop and have Blackburn run direct.

[quote="Robbb01"]-Run the Glen Waverly every 10 minutes interpeak into the city [b]look[/b][/quote]

Take Glen Waverley out of the loop and run to Sydenham.

Also have a service every 5 mins North Melbourne Yard-North Melbourne-Flagstaff-Melbourne Central-Parliament-Flinders Street-Southern Cross-North Melbourne-North Melbourne Yard.
  fast01 BUTTSCRATCHER!

Location: Somewhere your not.
The simplest solution?



Pump Melbourne's food and drinking water supplies full of LSD. Everyone will be so #@%$ed up they won't notice if their train is late, cancelled, stolen, derailed, upside-down, or on fire. Laughing
"wongm"
I think someone has already bet you to it, or at least, Robbb01's drinking water.
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around

Run the Upfield line every 10 minutes at all times.
"712M"


You still haven't explained how you will make that possible.

Duplication to Upfield, or at minimum a second platform at Upfield will be required.
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Duplication to Upfield, or at minimum a second platform at Upfield will be required.


Or extension through to Somerton and terminate at Craigieburn to make Craigieburn a super depot.
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
For Upfield....you could instead run a service to Gowrie every 10 minutes and extend it to Upfield every 20.

All of this is simply a short-term solution. With the current infrastructure, this is ALL we can do.
Does anyone see the government doing any real major works. No. So this would probly be the best we could get for now. And also, could you run extra services to Deer Park since it is 2 tracks untill Deer Park?

And also.....running the Sydenham services to Glen Waverly would also be a good idea as stated. Some Sydenham services would go through the loop though as it has a better frequency. And the Greensborough service would be extened to Eltham every half hour and to Hurstbridge every 45 minutes.

I know the V-line situation isn't fantastic. However it would work out a hell of a lot better for the many more Pakenham Line passengers as they could get extra trains.
  fast01 BUTTSCRATCHER!

Location: Somewhere your not.
I know the V-line situation isn't fantastic. However it would work out a hell of a lot better for the many more Pakenham Line passengers as they could get extra trains.
"Robbb01"
Not fantastic? When the Shep and Albury's (even though thats going to SG) are pretty much full, your suggesting them to get booted off complete with luggage and catch a spark to their final destination even if its in the city.. Its almost criminal.

And lets not forget, Albury and Sheps combined equal to about 7 cars of a Spark. Any credibility you once had from your already insane ideas in the past have just flown out the open space thats inbetween your ears.
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
I know the V-line situation isn't fantastic. However it would work out a hell of a lot better for the many more Pakenham Line passengers as they could get extra trains.
"Robbb01"
Not fantastic? When the Shep and Albury's (even though thats going to SG) are pretty much full, your suggesting them to get booted off complete with luggage and catch a spark to their final destination even if its in the city.. Its almost criminal.

And lets not forget, Albury and Sheps combined equal to about 7 cars of a Spark. Any credibility you once had from your already insane ideas in the past have just flown out the open space thats inbetween your ears.
"fast01"


Ok maybe its not the same for Albury and Shepparton trains....and that was a fact i did NOT know. However you have Gipsland trains which are only a few carriages. They also run express to the city taking up room for more trains. Are you suggesting that very bad overcrowding on the Sydenham and Pakenham lines should not be eased just a little bit by making not as crowded V-line trains terminate in the suburbs and change to larger trains.

Thats ok, lets squish the Sydenham passengers in like CRAZY and let small V-line trains running to Bendigo and Kyenton run past and not do anything to help?
  fast01 BUTTSCRATCHER!

Location: Somewhere your not.
I know the V-line situation isn't fantastic. However it would work out a hell of a lot better for the many more Pakenham Line passengers as they could get extra trains.
"Robbb01"
Not fantastic? When the Shep and Albury's (even though thats going to SG) are pretty much full, your suggesting them to get booted off complete with luggage and catch a spark to their final destination even if its in the city.. Its almost criminal.

And lets not forget, Albury and Sheps combined equal to about 7 cars of a Spark. Any credibility you once had from your already insane ideas in the past have just flown out the open space thats inbetween your ears.
"fast01"


Ok maybe its not the same for Albury and Shepparton trains....and that was a fact i did NOT know. However you have Gipsland trains which are only a few carriages. They also run express to the city taking up room for more trains. Are you suggesting that very bad overcrowding on the Sydenham and Pakenham lines should not be eased just a little bit by making not as crowded V-line trains terminate in the suburbs and change to larger trains.

Thats ok, lets squish the Sydenham passengers in like CRAZY and let small V-line trains running to Bendigo and Kyenton run past and not do anything to help?
"Robbb01"
I'm saying that the paths created by terminating V/line short will only be made up by invisible sparks to convey the V/line passengers.
A path is only useful if there is a train to run it. the only viable way to create room is to lay track or re signal, niether of which is cheap. I'll agree with comeng301m, the only way to save money is to spend it.
  Flinders_Flyer Chief Train Controller

Location: Greensborough
Yeah I don't know if this will cure the current problem nor am I confident that this is even possible without a larger fleet and infrastructure upgrades
  jezzap Locomotive Fireman

I'm saying that the paths created by terminating V/line short will only be made up by invisible sparks to convey the V/line passengers.
"fast01"

Not true. On the Pakenham line, a spark takes 53 minutes stopping all stations to Caulfield while a Vline takes 40. Running at 3 minute headways, the Vline uses 5 spark paths (Passing currently not practical between these stations). The cost of saving 2 Vline carriages worth of people 13 minutes is potentially 30 stopping all station spark carriages.


A path is only useful if there is a train to run it. the only viable way to create room is to lay track or re signal, niether of which is cheap. I'll agree with comeng301m, the only way to save money is to spend it.
"fast01"


Of course, the only proper solution is to have dedicated track. But until that happens, a compromise may be rather than making the Vline passengers change trains, let the Vlines run into the city, but do it at a speed using only one spark path.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

That's basically what the current situation is.  If the section ahead is clear, the V/Line train can move up, but if it's already following a spark at minimum headway, it has to crawl at the same speed of a spark.  "Using 5 spark paths" is nonsense.
  jezzap Locomotive Fireman

That's basically what the current situation is.  If the section ahead is clear, the V/Line train can move up, but if it's already following a spark at minimum headway, it has to crawl at the same speed of a spark.  "Using 5 spark paths" is nonsense.
"route14"

Yes, Vlines on the Pakenham line often get stuck behind sparks due to the pathetic on time performance of the sparks(69.7% for March). However, the timetables do allow gaps for the Vlines to travel as an express.

When will the govt totally scrap the current timetables and start from scratch? They have been squeezing in services where they fit for as long as I can remember, and as a result, the currently timetables are terribly inefficient.
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
I don't really like the idea of v-line trains terminating in the suburbs...but i don't know if we have any other option. It's a difficult situation and either way someone loses. The only way we will see a win win situation is if the V-lines have their own tracks.....but i highly doubt that is coming anytime soon.

And by the way i forgot to mention that the only thing that would really be needed for this plan is extra trains.
  Speed Minister for Railways

I think that Route14's point is that you can timetable a V-Line service to crawl behind a suburban service. If you do that, it won't take many suburban paths.

If the crawling V-Line train is around 6 cars long then you gain nothing by terminating it further down the line and having passengers change for a suburban.

Such an arrangement is far from perfect but it works when you only have a single track in each direction.
  jezzap Locomotive Fireman

I think that Route14's point is that you can timetable a V-Line service to crawl behind a suburban service. If you do that, it won't take many suburban paths.

If the crawling V-Line train is around 6 cars long then you gain nothing by terminating it further down the line and having passengers change for a suburban.

Such an arrangement is far from perfect but it works when you only have a single track in each direction.
"Speed"

OK, if that is his point then we are in agreement Smile
  steamchaise Junior Train Controller

People seem quick to shoot this guy down, but I'm interested.  What *would* people suggest as a way to stop some of the bleeding we have currently without medium or large infrastructure investments?

Is it an absolute must for country v/line trains to terminate in the city, or could we live with them doing so in the suburbs for a while?  If passengers changing trains is a problem, perhaps we could have the v/line follow a spark and stop only at particular stations (to compensate for the acceleration curves) to pick up passengers?  Sure, things will indeed get squashy, but at least they wont be changing trains?  After all; people in the suburbs cop crowded services like that every day.  If the argument is that country passengers pay more for a better service - why don't we lower their ticket prices for a while for the inconvenience?  I'd love to be able to pay a premium to get a seat and an express train - but since it's not in the best interests of the majority, it's not something available to me.

Remember; we're talking about stopping the bleeding - not curing it.  We all seem to be in agreement that the cure is investment.
  fast01 BUTTSCRATCHER!

Location: Somewhere your not.
I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is here..

Firstly, It is perfectly possible with a little upgrading (Because I think we are all in full agreement that fixing the current issues is going to cost money) the North East V/Line trains can run via Upfield with just a reopening of the line from Upfield - Somerton. It frees up space on the Craigieburn line further in town.

Bendigo, Ballarat and Werribee Lines - Fail. Nothing can be done in any way, shape, or form without major spending, unless you route V/line or the independant goods via Bunbury St, which opens up a whole other can of worms.

Pakenham, not knowing the line too well I could be off the mark, but if Oakleigh was to utilise all 3 platforms for overtaking and such, it is possible to bring up the on time performance a bit, but its still in the same boat as half the Northern Group.

None of this V/Line terminating at Metro terminus' bullchite, if we do that we may as well tear down Southern Cross, it'll be no longer needed..
  cookie930 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Spencer Street Station (Not SCS)
Just a question but how much could be gained by all forms of public transport if we were to wipe the current timetables and create new ones with better connection times and spacing. Remembering that this is only hypothetical and eliminates the chaos that would become of it with everyone having to rethink their commute. But it would require no major works at all therefore saving the government $$$ which they seem to always want to do rather than fix the main problem.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Just a question but how much could be gained by all forms of public transport if we were to wipe the current timetables and create new ones with better connection times and spacing. Remembering that this is only hypothetical and eliminates the chaos that would become of it with everyone having to rethink their commute. But it would require no major works at all therefore saving the government $$$ which they seem to always want to do rather than fix the main problem.
"cookie930"

Interesting idea, and I have developed the program to do it.

If you're interested, PM me your email address and I can send it to you.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: fast01, jezzap, SteamtoStay

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.