Angaston to Adelaide Passenger service

 
  mclaren2007 Assistant Commissioner

Location: recharging my myki
So it can be called the "Main North Road Big Bypass"?

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  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Wilfy a bus depot could be built at Gawler say and the buses run to and fro from there, Gawler is still in the Metro area so it is feasable to build one there, as I said this depot could also service Gawler and other districts as well as the Barossa Valley.

Buses zip along a lot faster than some cars do Wilfy, so they would not be that much of a hold up on the roads! In the city they really belt along at times, leaving cars and trucks in their wake! You need to travel on one to appreciate how fast they actually are at times! 8)
  2001 Moderator The Snow Lord

Location: The road jump at Charlotte Pass. Paxman Valenta on two planks.
I'm trying to recall now where Torrens Transit have their depot in the outer north.

Elizabeth ?
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
I'm trying to recall now where Torrens Transit have their depot in the outer north.

Elizabeth ?
"2001"


Yes, former Telstra works depot, corner of East Ave and Bell Chambers road.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me

Buses zip along a lot faster than some cars do Wilfy, so they would not be that much of a hold up on the roads! In the city they really belt along at times, leaving cars and trucks in their wake! You need to travel on one to appreciate how fast they actually are at times! 8)
"David Peters"

So true, just have a look at them on the Freeway or the Southern Expressway  Shocked
So it can be called the "Main North Road Big Bypass"?
"mclaren2007"

mclaren2007, the Northern Expressway was never intended as a road to Gawler or Angle Vale, it was from the outset an Expressway to link the Sturt Highway to the Port River Expressway and get the trucks off Main North Rd (through Smithfield / Elizabeth / Salisbury) and off Angle Vale and Heaslip Rds
(Oh and it will be interesting to see just how long it takes before Road Trains are allowed on the Northern Expressway and Sturt Highway!  Rolling Eyes  )
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
Regarding regional passenger trains a bizarre idea I've got is to extend the planned line on a new alignment down towards Victor Harbor Mandurah/Gold Coast style.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Now that would be a mountain goat line for sure!  Shocked
  GN4472 Deputy Commissioner



Buses zip along a lot faster than some cars do Wilfy, so they would not be that much of a hold up on the roads! In the city they really belt along at times, leaving cars and trucks in their wake! You need to travel on one to appreciate how fast they actually are at times! 8)
"David Peters"


The Barossa Valley Way is very hilly and a lot of busses, along with other heavy vehicles are not very good at climbing steep hills.

An example - I'm not referring to the Barossa here, but: I rode the J1 bus to Golden Grove, it struggled like mad to climb the hill on Golden Grove Rd, lucky it's a dual carriage way as many cars were flying past the bus - Do they really zip along?
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA


Buses zip along a lot faster than some cars do Wilfy, so they would not be that much of a hold up on the roads! In the city they really belt along at times, leaving cars and trucks in their wake! You need to travel on one to appreciate how fast they actually are at times! 8)
"David Peters"


The Barossa Valley Way is very hilly and a lot of busses, along with other heavy vehicles are not very good at climbing steep hills.
"GN4472"


That maybe so, but busses are better at it than trains... Rolling Eyes
  GN4472 Deputy Commissioner



Buses zip along a lot faster than some cars do Wilfy, so they would not be that much of a hold up on the roads! In the city they really belt along at times, leaving cars and trucks in their wake! You need to travel on one to appreciate how fast they actually are at times! 8)
"David Peters"


The Barossa Valley Way is very hilly and a lot of busses, along with other heavy vehicles are not very good at climbing steep hills.
"GN4472"


That maybe so, but busses are better at it than trains... Rolling Eyes
"Aaron"


Very true............But, a train could get a few of those heavy vehicles off the road, making it easier for those who drive. Rolling EyesRolling EyesWink
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

G'day all

Regarding road access to the Barossa there is an alternate route to the three major centres; that is the road through Gomesal. This road leaves the Sturt Highway east of Gawler and enters the Barossa Valley Way just south of Tanunda.

There would be few if any impediments to widening this road in the future and for the present it would be a good bus route.

At a meeting addressed by a senior PT planner for SA last night it is encouragingly that rail is now back on the agenda. A service to the Barossa is did not get a mention, many other projects did.

The SA Gov't is very concerned to preserve horticultural land, eg the Barossa and Southern Vales so expansion of towns like Tanunda, Angaston, McLaren Vale and willunga will not be encouraged. Greater population densities along existing rail corridors will be encouraged.

It seems like there are more projects being seriously studied than we are yet aware of. As this state becomes cashed up with mining royalties there will be exciting projects ahead.

Watch this space.

Regards
Ian
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Ian, Gomesal Road was rebuilt just a few years ago, From a dirty track to a major road to allow B doubles. (It has a blanket 90kph speed limit)
One of the major reasons for the upgrade was to stop trucks and semis from using Murray St in Gawler to access the Barossa Valley way.
  GN4472 Deputy Commissioner

The Gomersal Road is in a bad way at the moment. There are pot holes everywhere. The local Barossa papers have been doing stories on it.

Gomersal Road is blanketed at 90kph, but many motorists ignore it and drive faster - I usually get a tailgater.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
The Gomersal Road is in a bad way at the moment. There are pot holes everywhere. The local Barossa papers have been doing stories on it.
"GN4472"


Huge shock there, this road never got a top coat (term for the final layer of smooth ashfelt), done to save money is the obvious conclusion. As a result two things happened, one its the noisest road I've ever encountered, two the surface was predicted to break up (which it has).

Much of this road has no place to pull over, if you leave the ashfelt expect a trip up or downhill.
  62440 Deputy Commissioner

I was recently reminded that the stoney actually starts on the old Sedan branch and Sedan is not that far from Cambrai, on google the trackbeds and corridors appear to be intact. With the standardisation to Gawler, there is an opportunity to join the dots for a bypass route, initially with not a lot of new corridor, though in bumpy country and which could gradually be speeded up in stages but which would start as double stack north of the wires. Not sure that the vignerons would like 2 km intermodals trundling through the valley though but it would provide a track for the future passenger service.
WW
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
I was recently reminded that the stoney actually starts on the old Sedan branch and Sedan is not that far from Cambrai ...
"62440"


The Sedan and Penrice branches were distinct branches, one from Monarto South on the south line and the Penrice line from Plush's Corner on the Truro line.

The former no longer exists, and the latter was built for, and is in daily use by, the stoney.
  62440 Deputy Commissioner

Mea Culpa, I meant Truro from the Barossa and Sedan from Monarto. The gap is challenging to put it politely but it is easier to put a railway in an existing right of way rail corridor than to build greenfield. Linking the two line corridors gives a bypass of the Adelaide Hills with least track corridor needed in the first stage though with heavy earthworks including tunnelling.
WW
  kevin48 Junior Train Controller

Congratulations Wilfy. You started this thread over 18 months ago with a request for contacts who might help in pushing for re-establishment of the Adelaide Angaston passenger rail service. You have received many helpful suggestions.

The subject quickly morphed into a discussion of the pros and cons of your idea. And substantially more posts are for your idea than against it.

By far the biggest issue is the cost, both the initial capital and the running cost.

The second largest anti group are those who would prefer a road based solution over rail, mainly for cost and versatility reasons.

The third anti group are a sad lot of name-callers who are entirely dismissive of your idea and with one or two exceptions provide no useful input.

The fourth largest anti group are those who say there are rail projects of higher priority that should be attended to before your project.

The fifth anti group are those who fear that railway stations in the valley will encourage urban sprawl and loss of charm and attractiveness.

Others regard tourism by rail to the valley as a failed experiment, and freight also impossible to get going, so knocking out two of the three income sources.

A small group thinks it unfair to discriminate in favour of the valley over all the other places in SA that might need improved PT.

I personally like your idea Wilfy but some good points against have been raised. As time permits I shall try and analyse in more detail the main concerns the anti groups have raised.

Regards
Kevin
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Kevin

I would be almost certain that few of the groups you have described as anti Wilfy's Barossa Rail proposals are anti rail.

There would hardly be a poster on these pages who would not want to see all major towns and developments in SA served by rail. Some of us can remeber when they were and are aware of the reasons why this is no longer the case. These "services" ceased for quite practical reasons and not just some oonspiracy. My pet, the Spencer Gulf service is an exception, that failed due to inadequate equipment, ineptitude and a lack of commitment to seeing it succeed.

Of those who are suggesting road based solutions most see road as an interim patch opening the way to rail as the permanent solution. It seems that even road based PT services to the Valley are inadequate. My point, let's establish the market first.

There are a number of hurdles to a successful Barossa service. They can all be overcome but at costs economic, environmental and social. There are much higher priorities. Some of these if not addressed will strangle rail altogether. We don't want Wilfy and others having to campain for a return of rail services to Gawler!

You will need to address demographics. Two problems. One getting the population base in the Barossa without killing the Barossa. Two, to where those living in the Barossa will actually travel to on a very frequent basis, eg work.
This latter problem is a severe impediment to successful PT in Adelaide. Access to places of employment is almost totally based on private vehicles. Gone are the days when people either worked in the CBD or in industries at Port Adelaide or those served by rail eg Holdens, Hendon, Finsbury and Penfield.

I look forward to constructive solutions to what I and others have put forward.

I personally do not want to see a lot of foaming of frothy emotive ideas with no engineering substance.

Regards
Ian
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Steam4ian could not agree more with you put the bus service in and if it is a success then expand it later to rail if needed, but if it does not succeed then you have not lost a huge amount have you. No use spending Billions to upgrade track and provide new or repair existing infrastructure not to mention new signallining etc, to see the whole thing fall flat on it's face!

If the bus service is a success but cannot cope then you have a good argument for a rail service to augement the bus service. Most of us that have pushed this idea I would imagine think the same, prove the service viable first up and then improve it later if needed! This save's jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

By the way a post like that is worth a nomination for a bogie award! 8)
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.
Good evening,
Yes kevin 48 it is 18 months ago since I started this thread and at times it has gone of track, but yes you are right there has been some very good posts.

Recent posts have indicated that Gomesal(spelling)Road would not be suitable for a bus service because it was not built properly as it was not completed. A local resident from Tanunda has told me that it is a terrible road. The Barossa Way, has no overtaking lanes from Angaston to Gawler.

2001 has suggested an articulated bus to replace the proposed railcar. This bus when full would have trouble on the hills travelling to Gawler along the Barossa Way. So the service will have to go via Nuriootpa and travel along the Sturt highway where it could travel quickly but in a round about way.

I have been called many names because I have put forward this proposal and others because they are not suitable, or there is not enough population, or perhaps there would not be enough commuters , or not enough tourists. If the ideas are not put forward there will never be change.

Yes the Government has done a lot of work in planning improvements for public transport to various places around the city of Adelaide and in the 30 year plan there are more plans to extend the system, but no services will go to the Barossa or the Southern Vales wineries area.

There is mention of a second Park and ride facility for Mount barker to cope with expected housing growth but no mention of a Rail service to Mount barker.
No set date for the start of the Aldinga extension on the Noarlunga line.

No mention of Rail passenger services to any of the major rural cities of the state so the expansion of public transport system is very city centric as Ivan venning has been saying for years.

I know exactly what is going to happen with the barossa Line because I have been talking to a lot of people over the last 18 months and it will be interesting if a Bus service is persued or a Train service.

May the best service win.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Glad to see you have finally seen that a bus service could be possible Wilfy, not knocking your idea about the train though but just thinking that our state government always seem to opt for the cheap way out of anything. But as I said if the service was started and could not cope then rail might be a better option, to ease the PT woes of this area. The wine train as a separate private venture could get the light if done in conjunction with these things.

So you can see I am not as negative as once thought, just a bit of a realist! Cheers! 8)
  Riccardo Minister for Railways

Location: Gone. Don't bother PMing here.
Can someone please explain to me why members of the rail 'realist' or 'rationalist' faction like myself are always challenged as to whether we are railfans or not?

Would we hang around so much with so much passion if we didn't like trains?

It's because I like trains so much, I don't wish to see them misused or their reputation ruined, by placing them on worthless runs like the Barossa.

I love trains. I'll share 3 of them I like and I'll explain briefly why, then you'll know why I don't like your Barossa proposal.



This train runs at 140km/h from Perth to a place about as far away as Angaston is from Adelaide. It carries 80,000 people A DAY. The Barossa doesn't even have that many people and I doubt your service could carry that in a year.



This train carries heavy bulk freight (iron ore) the Pilbara ranges to port. A single train carries more than a month's worth of shipment on the Barossa stony.



This train runs in France and travels at a service speed of 320km/h. It beats aircraft over the same route and is profitable. Thousands of people on business and in time-critical situations get the travel they need from a rail vehicle, in a way that the operator and society can afford.

As I said, I love trains, and would hate to see good rail projects get canned because of all the money wasted and public grief incurred on bad ones.
  kevin48 Junior Train Controller


So you can see I am not as negative as once thought...
"David Peters"


Forgive me for getting the idea you are negative but what else could I think when I read through your posts.

"... rail in general in SA is dead and just needs to be buried, which is a pretty accurate statement." (Page 2 13 Jan 2008)

"If the stone train goes, which it has to one day, either because of trucks or the mine closes, that will be the end of the Barossa line." (Page 5 16 Jan 2008)

"Talk all you want about rail extensions in SA metro, and I will show you a pollie full of hot air!" (Page 21 28 Feb 2008)

"...there is no hope for extended services..." (Page 23 1 Mar 2008)

"I cannot see any government of any party doing it in the future, because there is not enough left to really worry about and by the time they do decide to buy it, it will all be a rotting mess that you could not run a gangers quad along without derailing it!" (Page 37 27 Jan 2009)

"I don't think it will have a hope in heaven of ever happening, not while bean counters control this world anyway." (I wonder what your mate kipioneer thought of that one) (Page 43 15 Mar 2009)

I could quote several others completely dismissive of the idea. You have posted on this thread more times than Wilfy (More than 158). Would you like me to quote from all your posts favouring the bus option? Is the bus lobby paying well? (Joking!)

Kind Regards
Kevin
  kevin48 Junior Train Controller

Riccardo

You are obviously a rail savvy person with a wide interest in the subject. I think your best post on this thread was on Page 23 1 Mar 2008 when you exhorted readers to consider other more worthy projects than the subject of this thread. Apart from your occasional off topic meanderings to which we are all prone you have been consistently against Wilfy's idea. As a newcomer to this forum and this thread may I respectfully suggest that you are more likely to make your point if you give substance to your assertions. I have an open mind but as humorous as they might be posts such as

"So have you all worked out how many angels dance on the head of a pin yet?

I'm keen to know coz its more interesting than trying to justify reinstating SA country passenger trains."  (Page 21 27 Feb 2008)

and

"Cityrail would be thinking of reopening to Camden before Transadelaide would run services to the Barossa.

And do you want to know the chances of reopening to Camden?

Zilch! The big Niente. Nada and Nichevo." (Page 21 28 Feb 2008)

and

"When's this thread going to die?" (Page 55 29 Jun 2009)

do not help to clinch the argument. I guess the reason this thread has not died yet is that there still remains stuff to be said.

If Ethiopia can rebuild their decaying railway system why can't we? Last time I checked we were a little more wealthy than them, but for how long?

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