Steam last operations...in NSWR

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seniorcit Locomotive Fireman

Gordon ,

You are correct with the last steam hauled on the West , from memory it was May 1967 .

The XPT started running out west in 1983 , again from memory .

 
SirNigel Locomotive Fireman

Location: Hornsby

Can we cut to the chase and dispel a lot of what has been written since I posted the following:

After coming in from Singleton on 720 Up Singleton pass On Saturday 24 July 1971, 3246 then ran to Broadmeadow and returned to Newcastle on the working you describe above - 827 (4.04pm from Broadmeadow Loco to Newcastle). 3246 was sent to Enfield and withdrawn the following month.

59s worked Gosford-Wyong shuttles during 1972 and the last known working was 5915 on 188x from Wyong to Gosford on 1 September 1972. These unexpected workings, and a revival of steam on the Short North, were due to the oil crisis. For a brief few weeks the clock was turned back, as 53s (some "borrowed" from Port Waratah) and 59s worked trains on their own and assisted Garratts on Down freights between Gosford and Broadmeadow.

In January 1972, Broadmeadow had seven 59s and eight 60s in service, right up to December, when only 5910, 6037 and 6042 remained. On 19 December 1972, the last run of double Garratts took place, when 6037 and 6042 thundered out of Fassifern on a 1,200 ton coal train, from a standing start at the foot of the 1 in 40 grade. Three days later, steam- worked coal trains into Port Waratah ended, with the last working being with saturated 5069 on 1056 Up coal from East Greta Junction.

6042 soldiered on, working to Newdell, Newstan (at Fassifern) and the Awaba-Wangi shuttle. It's last run was the Awaba shuttle on Friday 23 February 1973, which brought to an end regular steam working on the NSWR.

- A user

The reference to the run from Newcastle to Broadmeadow on Friday 2 March 1973 was a special train, to mark the end of regular steam operations on the NSWR (which by that stage had become the Rail Division of the Public Transport Commission). The working described in the previous paragraph was 6042's final revenue working.

The "last run" of 3246 described above appears to be slightly incorrect, given the recent post by Hunslet 1915

The last public service was NOT the Singleton to Newcastle passenger, as the locomotive then worked the scheduled Newcastle-Broadmeadow-Newcastle local to connect with the down Northern expresses, on Saturday 24/07/1971

- A user

[i](I ask that it be noted that the above details were sourced from the photo of this final working on page 226 of Ron Preston's book [i]Standards in Steam The 32 Class [/i])

Concerning today's "pearl" by gordon_s1942

I am sure the last timetable Passenger service by steam was No. 31/28 Central West Express, Sydney to Orange and the last run was I think on a Saturday in June or July but I cant be sure of the year.

The XPT recently had its 35th Birthday ? which if correct makes 1974 the year.

The Lithgow/Orange district was just about the last to fully Diesalise, Goods being the first, then the Night Mails and Finaly, The Central West Express.

- A user

1. The last steam locos on the West were 3628 (Lithgow), 3649 (Bathurst), 3811 and 3813 (Lithgow) and 6011 (Dubbo). The two Pigs and the Garratt were retained on the West for an Association of Railway Enthusiasts tour on the June long weekend and were sent to Enfield the following week.

2. The last run of steam on the Central West Express was 3813 on No 31 on Saturday 8 July 1967. It returned to Lithgow on 320 goods. The previous Saturday, 3811 worked 31 from Lithgow to Orange and was sent on Enfield on Friday 7 July.

3. The XPT's 35th birthday was in 2007 - the first XPT set entered service on the Central West Express on Thursday 8 April 1982, which was Easter Thursday.

Finally, concerning Philip Shirley, who was the Chief Commissioner of the PTC from 20 October 1972 to November 1975, history shows that his period at the helm marked the start of the demise of a once great railway system. It was during this period that the rail system lurched from crisis to crisis, with savage cutbacks to country rail services and reducing many long distance trains to a single loco, when two units were needed to maintain the timetable.

The final nail in Shirley's coffin was the may 1975 timetable, which on what is now Sector 3 (ie North Sshore/Main North and West, worked by Hornsby based sets) was designed around all trains being either W or S sets. The timetable proved unworkable - by the start of the afternoon peak, trains could be running up to an hour late and drivers and guards would find themselves being transposed, in an attempt to get services back to some semblance of reality.

This, together with lack of career prospects, was the main reason that caused me to resign from the PTC in November 1975 and join the Air Force.

Even now, attitudes which blossomed under Shirley's regime (such as bringing in "experts" from overseas) still pervades the current-day organisation. One only has to look back at Ross Sayers and other more recent CEOs of State Rail and RailCorp, to realise that to run such a large organisation, you have to at least have some idea of how trains operate.

Just think of what happened to Telstra under Sol and his three amigos, and other Government enterprises, where outsiders get the nod ahead of capable and experienced people from within.

And that's why the Chief or Air Force always has been and always will be a pilot or other air crew officer, who has risen to the top from within the Service.

 
Maikha - Moderator Not a gunzel

Thanks SirNigel for that, and the efforts you've gone to to write that post.

I hope there are no further arguments on this  Evil or Very Mad

 
seniorcit Locomotive Fireman

Sir Nigel ,

Well  said , Philip Shirley was indeed an unsavoury type .

Thankyou for the correct info re western steam .

 
4001firstdiesel Chief Commissioner

Location: GONE!!!! TIRED OF THE ABUSE AND PERSONAL ATTACKS

Sir Nigel ,

Well said, Philip Shirley was indeed an unsavoury type .

Thankyou for the correct info re western steam.

- seniorcit

Not only that, such was his unpopalurity that he resigned TWO YEARS before he was supposed to and the Government appointed Alan Reiher (responsible for commissioning the 81 class) instead. Reiher had previously been employed as a Public Servant for the Commonwealth.

Regards,

Ben

 
ivahri Junior Train Controller

Ummm Sir Nigel,

Maths clearly is not your strong point..

1982 + 35 would make the year 2017 (and I thought we were in 2009). I believe you will find they have been in service for 27 years (see, that is what happens when you try to be a S-A).

Did David Hill ever drive a train before he confronted Nifty at, I think, the Pambula Show about the disgrace that was the Railways? I believe he was a young long haired uni graduate- but he had brains, common sense, and some vision. I'm sure there are train drivers with those qualities & I suggest they should point themselves out the next time the job gets advertised!

The Chief of the Defence Forces is by tradition a serving officer. There is some logic in that given the extensive management & strategic training they are given on the way up. It doesn't mean a non-pilot couldn't have the skills to do it but they might find it hard to accumulate them outside defence.

And Sol was hopeless because he was hopeless not because he had never installed a telephone...

Hardly a parallel anyway...

Regards,

Richard



3.  The XPT's 35th birthday was in 2007 - the first XPT set entered service on the Central West Express on Thursday 8 April 1982, which was Easter Thursday.

Even now, attitudes which blossomed under Shirley's regime (such as bringing in "experts" from overseas) still pervades the current-day organisation.  One only has to look back at Ross Sayers and other more recent CEOs of State Rail and RailCorp, to realise that to run such a large organisation, you have to at least have some idea of how trains operate.

Just think of what happened to Telstra under Sol and his three amigos, and other Government enterprises, where outsiders get the nod ahead of capable and experienced people from within.

And that's why the Chief or Air Force always has been and always will be a pilot or other air crew officer, who has risen to the top from within the Service.

- A user

- SirNigel
 
michinyon Chief Commissioner

I hope there are no further arguments on this Evil or Very Mad

- A user

3. The XPT's 35th birthday was in 2007 - the first XPT set entered service on the Central West Express on Thursday 8 April 1982, which was Easter Thursday.

- A user

That'd be 25 years then.

 
michinyon Chief Commissioner

Not only that, such was his unpopalurity that he resigned TWO YEARS before he was supposed and the Government appointed Alan Reiher (responsible for commissioning the 81 class) instead. Reiher had previously been employed as a Public Servant for the Commonwealth.

- A user

Reiher yes,   now this dude was remarkable because HE ACTUALLY CAUGHT THE TRAIN TO WORK.    He was on the 7:36 from Lindfield almost every day.

Shirley's timetable was rather odd.   He was very keen on trains skipping stations in seemingly erratic patterns,   made it rather difficult to get from A to B sometimes.

 
4001firstdiesel Chief Commissioner

Location: GONE!!!! TIRED OF THE ABUSE AND PERSONAL ATTACKS

Not only that, such was his unpopalurity that he resigned TWO YEARS before he was supposed and the Government appointed Alan Reiher (responsible for commissioning the 81 class) instead. Reiher had previously been employed as a Public Servant for the Commonwealth.

- A user

Reiher yes, now this dude was remarkable because HE ACTUALLY CAUGHT THE TRAIN TO WORK. He was on the 7:36 from Lindfield almost every day.

Shirley's timetable was rather odd. He was very keen on trains skipping stations in seemingly erratic patterns, made it rather difficult to get from A to B sometimes.

- michinyon

WOW Exclamation. Never thought I'd that. What an accomplishment for a Public Servant. The decline of a great system probably commenced with that scheduling.

Regards,

Ben

 
ivahri Junior Train Controller

I was around and catching trains daily during the "Shirley timetable". I actually thought it was way ahead of its time. He tried to speed up trains by introducing expresses but using rolling stock that was way too old to cope. Trying to run what were then 50 year old stock flat out was a recipe for disaster, but he at least had a go. Being a South line commuter having trains that skipped stops like Casula for the first time, or used "unconventional" rolling stock like a U boat (yes, they did run to Campbelltown once a day under Shirley) did attempt to provide services that till then no-one had tried.

So he may have been a historically unpopular figure but he at least tried, unlike some that take their money & do nothing while Rome burns (aka our present NSW Nero).

Regards,

Richard

Shirley's timetable was rather odd.   He was very keen on trains skipping stations in seemingly erratic patterns,   made it rather difficult to get from A to B sometimes.

- A user

- michinyon
 
SirNigel Locomotive Fireman

Location: Hornsby

michinyon and ivahri

OK - I was 10 years out about 1982-2007.  Sorry, and I was not trying to be a S-A...   Embarassed

However, there are simply too many posts being put on without any cross-reference to facts or any simple research being done.

Concerning the need for the CEO to have some basic rail operating knowledge, just think back to some of those that have occupied that role.

The point I was trying to make is sadly, so many large organisations "import" so called experts, who come in, stuff things up and then get a huge golden handshake, when they leave.

Two examples that come to mind are Bob Joss, who took Westpac to the edge in the 1980s and more recently, the head of AMP (whose name escapes me). And just look at how the cost of NRMA membership has gone through the roof, because of the collective egos of the previous Board of Directors.

There are parallels here, as the organization suffers, staff morale plummets and shareholders see the value of their equity decline.

I recall at the time that Alan Reiher's appointment in March 1976 was not supported by the ALP, which won the subsequent State Election.  Alan Reiher took up his appointment 11 days before the election. From memory, he was Secretary of the Department of Housing and Construction (see below).

As opposed to 2005 when John Brew was "sacked" by Brian Langton, after Labor regained office, Alan Reiher remained in his job until October 1980, when the PTC was split up and the State Rail Authority (SRA) created.

And yes, David Hill, who met Neville Wran, while the latter was campaigning for a by-election, did have brains, common sense, and some vision.  He also had a significant parting in writing Labor's 1976 transport policy, which played a key role in delivering Neville Wran the five seats (including key commuter seats of Blue Mountains and Hurstville that Labor had lost in 1965 and Gosford) that he needed to win government.  “Call me David” was appointed an Associate Commissioner after the 1978 State Election and two years later became the first Chief Executive of the SRA, a position he held for six years, when he took over as Chairman of the ABC.

Finally, as you have both rightly pointed out, the 1975 timetable was a good idea in theory, but it didn't work because of delays to delivery of rolling stock and insufficient trains that could operate to the faster running times.

Of interest, the following is an extract on a biography of Alan Reiher:

In 1963 he moved to New South Wales as Director of Works, supervising a large staff and being responsible for annual expenditures of £40 million.

In 1965 he returned to the Commonwealth service, based in Melbourne, where he was successively First Assistant Director-General Management Services (1965-1966), Deputy Director-General (Australia) (1966-1967) and Director-General Australia (1967-1973) (of the Commonwealth Department of Works - Sir Nigel), heading a staff of 14,000 people expending $330 million annually. His upward path continued when he was appointed as Secretary of the Department of Housing and Construction and Director of Works, and then for the years 1975-1976 Director-General of the Department of Construction.

In 1976 Reiher returned to the NSW Government service as Chief Commissioner of Public Transport, heading a department of 50,000 employees with annual budget $1000 million, roughly a fifth of which was invested in capital works. Under his leadership there was substantial improvement in operating performance (earning him the Australian Institute of Production Engineers’ James N. Kirby Memorial Medal), and declining patronage was reversed. New approaches such as leverage leasing and program and project management, especially for major projects such as the XPT and the Eastern Suburbs Railway were introduced before Reiher was ‘head hunted’ in 1980 to become Chairman of the Victorian Railways Board.

Alan Reiher died on 3 August 2003.  So while, he had no actual rail experience, he was a civil engineer, who had headed up large government enterprises, with significant capital works budgets.  

Many previous Railway Commissioners (both here in NSW and interstate, as well as Mr Keith Smith, a retired Commonwealth Railways Commissioner) had engineering backgrounds. Four of the nine Branches in the NSWR prior to 1972, were engineering undertakings.

 
4001firstdiesel Chief Commissioner

Location: GONE!!!! TIRED OF THE ABUSE AND PERSONAL ATTACKS

3246 did haul the last steam hauled passenger service in NSW. IIRC, it was a commuter train from Maitland or Singleton Question

- NSWRTM123

It was the Singleton Passenger

Regards,

Ben

 
hunslet1915 Chief Train Controller

3246 did haul the last steam hauled passenger service in NSW. IIRC, it was a commuter train from Maitland or Singleton Question

- NSWRTM123

It was the Singleton Passenger

Regards,

Ben

- 4001firstdiesel

IT WAS NOT!!!    Please see my earlier posting of 14/08/2009.

 
4001firstdiesel Chief Commissioner

Location: GONE!!!! TIRED OF THE ABUSE AND PERSONAL ATTACKS

3246 did haul the last steam hauled passenger service in NSW. IIRC, it was a commuter train from Maitland or Singleton Question

- NSWRTM123

It was the Singleton Passenger

Regards,

Ben

- 4001firstdiesel

IT WAS NOT!!! Please see my earlier posting of 14/08/2009.

- hunslet1915

My apologies EmbarassedEmbarassed, Hunslet1915. I will be more careful next time.

Regards,

Ben

 
MrNathan Chief Commissioner

Location: In and out.

"Railways of the South Maitland Coalfields" was accurate as it could be at the time it was published in 1969, but as has since been evidenced since the publication of his parallel book on "The Railways of J & A Brown" (1972), subsequent research has found that many, many aspects have required review.

- hunslet1915

Should you be seeking further information, then I recommend "Coal, Mines and Railways" by Brian Robert Andrews, as it dispels the myths that have surrounded Brown's operations for a great many years.

Regards,

Ben

- 4001firstdiesel

And what myths, pray tell, would those be Mr Expert? I'd go so far to say that that book creates more (the rubbish about the replacement 10 Class Boilers being one) and the failure to reference such sources as Mr Eardley's notes creates the notion that attempts were made to muddy original sources in order to establish that book as the definitive source.

While it is a very good book, there are still some glaring errors.

 
Shed_Rat Train Controller

Location: 'A' Shop - Swindon Works



And what myths, pray tell, would those be Mr Expert? I'd go so far to say that that book creates more (the rubbish about the replacement 10 Class Boilers being one) and the failure to reference such sources as Mr Eardley's notes creates the notion that attempts were made to muddy original sources in order to establish that book as the definitive source.

While it is a very good book, there are still some glaring errors.

- MrNathan

And do pray tell Mr 'expert' Nathan can you prove why the bit regarding the 10 class boilers is rubbish with documented "FACTS" as well as the other supposed problems with the book? According to the end papers the author worked in the office of Coal & Allied & would have had access to information not readily available to anyone outside of C & A. As for referencing Eardley's work why would the author do that if he never used it as a reference, you seem to have a big problem with the variations with this books version from Eardley's version of the history of J & A Brown.

 
dthead - Administrator Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

{effie mode}
Oh sorry for interrupting but I were cold and it has got a little warm here recently. Don't mind me, I'll just be lurking a bit so lets be nice....

{/effie mode}

Get the message all  Wink

 
MrNathan Chief Commissioner

Location: In and out.



And what myths, pray tell, would those be Mr Expert? I'd go so far to say that that book creates more (the rubbish about the replacement 10 Class Boilers being one) and the failure to reference such sources as Mr Eardley's notes creates the notion that attempts were made to muddy original sources in order to establish that book as the definitive source.

While it is a very good book, there are still some glaring errors.

- MrNathan

And do pray tell Mr 'expert' Nathan can you prove why the bit regarding the 10 class boilers is rubbish with documented "FACTS" as well as the other supposed problems with the book? According to the end papers the author worked in the office of Coal & Allied & would have had access to information not readily available to anyone outside of C & A. As for referencing Eardley's work why would the author do that if he never used it as a reference, you seem to have a big problem with the variations with this books version from Eardley's version of the history of J & A Brown.

- Shed_Rat

I am not an expert, nor do I purport to be. My problem with the boiler bit is that it completely contradicts the records held by the SMR on the matter. If those records are erroneous, then I will gladly retract that statement. Basically - Mr Andrews states that the boiler pressings were supplied by Hunslet in the 1960s when I would have thought it was common knowledge that they were done here using the original Byer, Peacock dies that were shipped out.

I have no reason to doubt Brian's knowledge of the workings of the mines, which is most informative, but there are many inconsistencies in the references to the locos, particularly the erroneous diagram of the 10 Class. Never mind the three years of arguing with the ARHS over many operational problems.

Regarding Giff's books though, you'd think that being the seminal texts on the subject at least some reference would have been appropriate. It's difficult to comprehend that absolutely no material was taken from these books. Working in the office doesn't give one full and complete knowledge of the operations of a railway.

I am not near my copies of either book to completely verify my argument, but, if you wish, when I am I will post thusly.

 
4001firstdiesel Chief Commissioner

Location: GONE!!!! TIRED OF THE ABUSE AND PERSONAL ATTACKS

Call me David” was appointed an Associate Commissioner after the 1978 State Election and two years later became the first Chief Executive of the SRA, a position he held for six years, when he took over as Chairman of the ABC.

- SirNigel

Recalling a forum that one attended during the 150th Celebrations 4 years ago, David Hill (who I actually met Cool) was reappointed between 1993 (Question) and 1996.

Regards,

Ben

 

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