Leppington to Glenfield?

 
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The "official" Network Map includes the "South West Rail Link - Under Construction" graphic, which is similar to when the ECRL was being constructed. It's unusual that it's not on the CityRail website though!
"Raichase"


It has made the website, along with a brief alteration for the South Coast Line

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  tranx Assistant Commissioner

Location: Somewhere in Southwest Sydney
This reminds me of the Camden Line.
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
That would be nice to have back, as it would have passed quite literally through my back yard Smile Not sure the missus would care too much about having a train go by our bedroom window about 2m away...
  ivahri Train Controller

The comment in the plan regarding a potential extension to either Oran Park or Bringelly gives me renewed confidence that a route taking it through to just north-west of the Oran Park land release is still a possibility. A major bus-rail interchange there would see a shift away from buses to Campbelltown from Camden, and instead a more logical (and quicker) feed from Camden-Narellan-Currans Hill to Oran Park. Three stops to Glenfield as distinct from a slow bus to Campbelltown & then 4 stops to Glenfield... makes a heap of sense to me.

From there it makes sense for the line to arc around to the northwest towards Luddenham & a potential connection to the main west near Penrith... Camden to Penrith in, what, 20 minutes? OK it isn't going to happen in my lifetime (I'm 47) but it makes a heap of sense to me.

I know I'll be one less car on the road once Leppington opens...

Cheers,


Richard
  lunchbox Locomotive Driver

The South West Rail Link doesn't open until 2016.
It's disingenuous (a nice word for lying) for CityRail to be showing it in carriages now.
Have they learnt nothing from the Parra - Epping election announcement, which, instead of winning votes, lost Bennelong?
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
They've displayed tracks that aren't complete but are currently building at least as far back as the original East Hills to Glenfield link.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The South West Rail Link doesn't open until 2016.
It's disingenuous (a nice word for lying) for CityRail to be showing it in carriages now.
Have they learnt nothing from the Parra - Epping election announcement, which, instead of winning votes, lost Bennelong?
"lunchbox"


It shows it is under construction- which it is. The PERL is not under construction, and is not in rail carriages.

Bennelong was not lost because of a rail announcement, reasons such as the response to the GFC, the BER, the Kevin 747 etc were.
  TE2815 Minister for Railways

Location: Mission control Minto or Thirlmere
The South West Rail Link doesn't open until 2016.
It's disingenuous (a nice word for lying) for CityRail to be showing it in carriages now.
Have they learnt nothing from the Parra - Epping election announcement, which, instead of winning votes, lost Bennelong?
"lunchbox"


It shows it is under construction- which it is. The PERL is not under construction, and is not in rail carriages.

Bennelong was not lost because of a rail announcement, reasons such as the response to the GFC, the BER, the Kevin 747 etc were.
"seb2351"
seb2351, I think lunchbox may be referring to 2010 not 2007. Anyway Bennelong was not won by Labor in 2007 in the first place it was lost by Howard through his perceived arrogance and WorkChoices. At this last election in 2010 it just reverted back to normal after the voters had had their say and made their point.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The South West Rail Link doesn't open until 2016.
It's disingenuous (a nice word for lying) for CityRail to be showing it in carriages now.
Have they learnt nothing from the Parra - Epping election announcement, which, instead of winning votes, lost Bennelong?
"lunchbox"


It shows it is under construction- which it is. The PERL is not under construction, and is not in rail carriages.

Bennelong was not lost because of a rail announcement, reasons such as the response to the GFC, the BER, the Kevin 747 etc were.
"seb2351"
seb2351, I think lunchbox may be referring to 2010 not 2007. Anyway Bennelong was not won by Labor in 2007 in the first place it was lost by Howard through his perceived arrogance and WorkChoices. At this last election in 2010 it just reverted back to normal after the voters had had their say and made their point.
"TE2815"


October 2007- Liberal, December 2007- Labor. Labor won the seat of Bennelong. That is from the AEC. We could have a spirited discussion on the ins and outs of which political party "won" which seat, but I am guessing both of us have lives and have better things to do.

I was referring to 2010. Lunchbox said that due to the announcement of the PERL, the seat was lost (presumely by disgruntled voters tired of hearing nothing but spin by an increasingly desperate government clining at straws to stay in power). Hence my listing of the reasons why the seat was "lost" (Was Labor, now liberal so lost irregardless of how you look at it)

Annnnyyyyway, back to the SWRL. Could go on for hours otherwise  8)
  TE2815 Minister for Railways

Location: Mission control Minto or Thirlmere
The South West Rail Link doesn't open until 2016.
It's disingenuous (a nice word for lying) for CityRail to be showing it in carriages now.
Have they learnt nothing from the Parra - Epping election announcement, which, instead of winning votes, lost Bennelong?
"lunchbox"


It shows it is under construction- which it is. The PERL is not under construction, and is not in rail carriages.

Bennelong was not lost because of a rail announcement, reasons such as the response to the GFC, the BER, the Kevin 747 etc were.
"seb2351"
seb2351, I think lunchbox may be referring to 2010 not 2007. Anyway Bennelong was not won by Labor in 2007 in the first place it was lost by Howard through his perceived arrogance and WorkChoices. At this last election in 2010 it just reverted back to normal after the voters had had their say and made their point.
"TE2815"


October 2007- Liberal, December 2007- Labor. Labor won the seat of Bennelong. That is from the AEC. We could have a spirited discussion on the ins and outs of which political party "won" which seat, but I am guessing both of us have lives and have better things to do.

I was referring to 2010. Lunchbox said that due to the announcement of the PERL, the seat was lost (presumely by disgruntled voters tired of hearing nothing but spin by an increasingly desperate government clining at straws to stay in power). Hence my listing of the reasons why the seat was "lost" (Was Labor, now liberal so lost irregardless of how you look at it)

Annnnyyyyway, back to the SWRL. Could go on for hours otherwise  8)
"seb2351"
Not to dwell on it but my point was that Labor would have lost it announcement or not simply for the fact that the Liberal voters deserted Howard over WorkChoices etc...., so in practicality we are in agreement.

Anyhow back to the topic at hand.
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
Is the price tag of $2,000,000,000 going to stand? Or will it change (up or down?)
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Is the price tag of $2,000,000,000 going to stand? Or will it change (up or down?)
"newington"


Normally when a quote is given, that is the expected cost of the item. However, as unforeseen circumstances occur, then yes that price will change.

Have you heard of any reason why the figure would change? I dont see why it would, outside of the usual contractors getting paid much more then they would working for a private businesses needs.
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
Is the price tag of $2,000,000,000 going to stand? Or will it change (up or down?)
"newington"


Normally when a quote is given, that is the expected cost of the item. However, as unforeseen circumstances occur, then yes that price will change.

Have you heard of any reason why the figure would change? I dont see why it would, outside of the usual contractors getting paid much more then they would working for a private businesses needs.
"seb2351"


No reason heard, because they'd probably be a massive beat-up about it if there were LaughingRolling Eyes .

Seriously, why does the Gov't get charged streets more than private clients? Obviously exploitation, but why does the Gummint allow it?

gee, should be a political nightmare squandering so much money, yet, nothing is done Sad
  Speed Minister for Railways

I agree that a promise to extend the Epping-Chatswood line, increasing its throughput, was not what lost McKew her Bennelong seat.

The seat, although it got classified as marginal while Howard occupied it, had been stable Liberal and Labor holding it could be an exception to the Liberal norm.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The "official" Network Map includes the "South West Rail Link - Under Construction" graphic, which is similar to when the ECRL was being constructed. It's unusual that it's not on the CityRail website though!
"Raichase"


It has made the website, along with a brief alteration for the South Coast Line
"seb2351"


Ah, thanks for the link - silly me was only looking at the interactive map, not the downloaded one!
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
This is a basic overview of what the diagram displays:

[bigimg]http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/nadnerb2k/leppo.jpg[/bigimg]

From this we can surmise:

Trains coming from the East Hills line will not be able to terminate at Glenfield - they can only access platform 4. From there they can go to Leppington or Campbelltown.
"nadnerbster"
To me it looks like trains could shunt over the South Flyover to return to Platform 1 for an Up East Hills service too.

Just going off that diagram and signalling arrangements permitting it is possible.
"TE2815"


There's no crossover from the down to the up for the move. I only "joined" the two lines there to indicate they share the same bridge.

"nadnerbster"


A good place for a Leppington turnback would be a centre siding past the south flyover.

This allows trains to terminate in the Down island platform, and recommence in the Up Island plaform for good interchange either way.  As is is a long way to Leppington distancewise and timewise, a short way turnback would be useful.
  ivahri Train Controller

As for Oran Park, it's too far away to attract people to Leppington station. Campbelltown is still much closer and all the bus services head there. They really need to keep going and have it run down Camden Valley Way to pick up all those new suburbs that are going in, or already established.
"jcouch"

I'd like to see a high frequency busway (T-Way) built between Leppington and Campbelltown running via Camden Valley Way and Narellan Road to provide a decent form of transport to connect to the railways. With that, there should be buses running to the various centres along the way and down around Camden. Can't see it happening though.

If they had any brains they would push the line through to meet up with the western line.
"42101"

Why? Are there even many growth areas which are set to happen along a route out there? - I'm talking further out at like Luddenham etc (if that's an area you meant for it to run through)
"Crazy-D"


Of course the areas around Luddenham are part of the urban release area... significant industrial & residential developments are planned for there. There will soon come a day when there is development along the whole Northern Rd from Narellan through to Penrith so there is an urgent need to allow for a heavy rail corridor to go with the expansion of the road to 4 or 6 lanes.

Cheers,

Richard
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Regarding awsgc24's post (to prevetn eyestrain from over quoting), why can't a train terminate P2, shunt fowards and return to Leppington P3.
  Rails Chief Commissioner

I agree that a promise to extend the Epping-Chatswood line, increasing its throughput, was not what lost McKew her Bennelong seat.

The seat, although it got classified as marginal while Howard occupied it, had been stable Liberal and Labor holding it could be an exception to the Liberal norm.
"Speed"


I think you will find that with the changing of the boundaries for this seat a few years ago it will be more of a swinging seat than in the past. However it would be notionally liberal still I think.
  Murasaki Chief Train Controller

Location: Going sideways... in carriage DET-9216 (>ω<)
Pardon me, seb2351, but where is this "brief alteration for the South Coast Line"? I figured you might have meant "Dunmore replaced by Flinders", but that was not the case. Or is it the Bundagong* bus drawn in green now, instead of blue?

* Bundanoon ~ Wollongong Coach service. Use it. Wear it out. No charge (^_^)
  Rogaco Station Master

Pardon me, seb2351, but where is this "brief alteration for the South Coast Line"? I figured you might have meant "Dunmore replaced by Flinders", but that was not the case. Or is it the Bundagong* bus drawn in green now, instead of blue?

* Bundanoon ~ Wollongong Coach service. Use it. Wear it out. No charge (^_^)
"Murasaki"


Have a look at South Coast trains leading into Central... instead of crossing the train lines on the previous maps, it continues onto Town Hall, Martin Place etc.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Regarding awsgc24's post (to prevent eyestrain from over quoting), why can't a train terminate P2, shunt fowards and return to Leppington P3.
"seb2351"


If there is no siding, a terminating train (as suggested above) may get in the way of through trains to or from Leppington. If the timetable requires a 5 minute turnround time, then small problem. But if the timetable requires a 15 minute turnround time, then through pax may be delayed 10 minutes. Not having a siding clear of the through tracks is "False Economy".

In the scheme of things, a siding "only" requires a modest amount of extra track - say 200m - and perhaps one extra turnout.

Think of centre turnback sidings at the following places:
Bankstown
Kingsgrove
Martin Place
Central P24/P25

Epping P1/P2 (siding on side) Due to lack of space clear of the ECRL dives, this had to be build on the side rather than as a centre siding.

Lakemba (abolished)
Petersham (abolished)

Centre turnback platforms as distinct from sidings not included.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney

Epping P1/P2 (siding on side) Due to lack of space clear of the ECRL dives, this had to be build on the side rather than as a centre siding.
"awsgc24"

That one seemed odd to me.  I am curious as to whether there was an engineering reason that the dives were built such that they restricted the width.  If the down ECRL dive were moved a little to the west once it clears the tunnel, and its junction shifted north to near the bus tunnel, it seems even now there would be room for the turnback to be built between the tracks.
  Rails Chief Commissioner

The great dividing line

September 28, 2010

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-great-dividing-line-20100927-15u5x.html


Getting the transport system right for the south-west corner of Sydney requires more than money and sensible engineering, writes Andrew West.

Glenfield railway station on the south-western fringe of Sydney is roaring with activity. Bulldozers and earth movers are clearing land, their reverse lights beeping incessantly. Foremen in hard hats and yellow vests climb over dirt mounds to survey the route of the planned rail track.

The station will be the junction of five rail services: the existing services via East Hills, Bankstown, Lidcombe and Granville, and from 2016, the new south-west link from Leppington.

The south-west line - along with the inner-west light rail - is one of the few good stories the Keneally government has to tell about public transport. Sure, it has doubled in price, from $688 million to $1.3 billion, since it was announced in 2004 but it is finally - and seemingly irrevocably - going ahead.

But as with other NSW public transport initiatives of the past 20 years - such as the agreement with private station operators on the airport line that makes tickets prohibitively expensive, or a politically motivated redesign of the Chatswood-Epping line that doubled the cost of the project - there could be a big hitch.

Rail experts warn that the south-west link is a poor fit with the plan to build a ''CBD relief line'' for CityRail trains using a corridor under Sussex Street.

When the government announced the $4.5 billion relief line in February as part of its ''transport blueprint'', it argued that in the peak hour the line would bring eight extra trains into the city from the western suburbs, on the main line via Blacktown, Parramatta and Strathfield. But experts say it would be better to build the central business district relief line in a corridor under Pitt Street to accommodate up to 20 trains an hour from the south-west coming through Sydenham station.

''A connection to a new CBD relief line that fed trains via Sydenham would allow more network-wide growth than any alternative,'' a rail industry source said. ''This is because the network could allow more trains to approach the CBD from the south west via Sydenham than from any other feed.

''A new connection to the western line will only allow growth from the west and will only allow about half as many additional trains into the CBD, compared with a connection via Sydenham. Growth from the south-west towards the CBD and the north shore will have no direct route towards the city unless a connection via Sydenham is implemented.''

The Pitt Street option would also allow for the expansion of Martin Place station, taking pressure off Town Hall station, where passengers from the eastern suburbs and Illawarra lines transfer to trains for the north shore.

In a nutshell, two critical pieces of infrastructure - a line to relieve rail congestion under Sydney and ultimately enable a second rail harbour crossing, and a line to the booming south-western suburbs - could in effect cancel each other out within a decade if the government chooses the wrong route under the city.

Appearing before a parliamentary estimates committee last week, the Minister for Transport, John Robertson, said the government had not decided which corridor, Sussex Street or Pitt Street, to use for the relief line, but would finalise plans by the end of the year. Much hinges on his decision.

By the mid-2030s, the population of south-west Sydney will surge from about 55,000 now to almost 300,000. The hills that are now home to horse studs and dairy farms will be swallowed up by an estimated 110,000 new houses, ranging from large homes with five or six bedrooms on single blocks, to medium-density flats built around courtyards near town centres.

The mayor of Camden, Chris Patterson, says that the shire that now has a two-storey height limit will have buildings of five and six storeys. This is not necessarily a problem, he says, but will certainly be a culture shock. ''People here accept that there will be change but the scale is astronomical,'' he says. ''Traditionally, this has been an area for quarter-acre blocks and much bigger. The more diverse the releases of land, the more diverse the people.''

The 11.4-kilometre rail line between Glenfield and Leppington, with a stop at Edmondson Park, will be the main artery of the new development. Without the line, the region would choke on its own traffic congestion. Patterson says the Camden Valley Way - just one lane each way - is already inadequate.

The line will bring locals not only to jobs in the city but in the decentralised centres of Liverpool, Campbelltown, Bankstown and Parramatta. It will also change the social composition of the Macarthur region.

Gabrielle Gwyther, a research fellow at the University of Western Sydney who has studied western suburbs communities, says the existing rail line through Glenfield, Macquarie Fields, Ingleburn and Campbelltown before stopping at Macarthur has influenced the profile of the area. ''People along the rail line tend to be from lower socio-economic groups,'' says Gwyther.

''There are quite a lot of poorly designed townhouses that are home to recently arrived migrant groups and, since the demolition of the housing commission estates, lots of first-home buyers.''

As these residents become wealthier, they move further south and west, into places such as Narellan and Camden, where there is no rail service. ''People moved there knowing that and, to some extent, they like it that way,'' says Gwyther.

''They become car-based households, often because they become self-employed as contractors or skilled tradies, and they're on the road as part of work.''

The M5 motorway has become the social dividing line, says Gwyther, with the classic ''aspirationals'' living on the western side.

Stephen Albin, the chief executive of the Urban Development Institute of Australia, quotes institute research showing that south-western Sydney residents tend to trade up as they become more prosperous, but largely within the Macarthur region. Developers report that much of their sales volume is to families that already live within six to eight kilometres of their new houses. ''There's a very strong identification with the area that can extend over a lifetime,'' Albin says.

By contrast, families flood into the north-west from all over Sydney to acquire bigger blocks.

The self-contained nature of the Macarthur region - with residents conceivably going from a townhouse-style first home to stand-alone house to retirement unit - highlights the need for the government to provide infrastructure, says Albin. ''It's not good enough for the government to just release land, lower stamp duty then walk away.''

As Brendan Gleeson, the centre director of Griffith University's urban research program, says, the planned diversity of the south-west growth centre will increase reliance on the rail line. ''Public transport is used disproportionately by particular households such as singles, childless couples, the elderly,'' Gleeson says.

But as the recent VAMPIRE (''vulnerability assessment for mortgage, petrol and inflation risks and expenses'') study found, the trend towards increasing fuel costs will start to hit the car-happy, self-employed aspirationals that Gwyther has identified. ''They can make a lot of money,'' she says, ''but they're also aware they are very vulnerable because they're contractors. They, too, know they may need government services.''

Which makes the case for getting the rail line right even more important.

Rail experts say there will need to be about 20 trains an hour out of the south-west, serving not only city-bound commuters from the Macarthur region but passengers along the way. As Gwyther says, the routes serve different clientele and trains from Glenfield are already packed at peak hour.

The East Hills line, through Narwee, Beverley Hills and Kingsgrove, tends to draw more professional passengers. ''They're often office workers with jobs in the city, often in suits and more formal clothes,'' she says. ''People potentially on the way up.''

On the line via Liverpool, Cabramatta and Bankstown, the passengers are more likely to be from first-generation immigrant, non-English-speaking backgrounds. ''They rely more heavily on the rail line for the daily transport needs, for a variety reasons, including not yet having a car or driver's licence,'' says Gwyther.

''There are cheaper units around Cabramatta, Carramar and Villawood, which tend to be entry suburbs for many new migrants. Their first jobs are more likely to be in places like Bankstown or Parramatta, and then they move up. That's often part of the migrant trajectory.''

All of which makes the decision about how to link south-western Sydney to the CBD a matter of demography, not only engineering.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Pardon me, seb2351, but where is this "brief alteration for the South Coast Line"? I figured you might have meant "Dunmore replaced by Flinders", but that was not the case. Or is it the Bundagong* bus drawn in green now, instead of blue?

* Bundanoon ~ Wollongong Coach service. Use it. Wear it out. No charge (^_^)
"Murasaki"


All weekend South Coast services will extend to Bondi Junction (So beware Countrylink passengers, your in for a walk!) and hence there is a dotted line to Bondi Junction. Nothing major but still an interesting change.

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