Hi all,

I'm currently trying to hunt down some drawings of the electric token block instruments. Those of you who don't necessarily know what one is, here's a picture of one below:-



Any help would be greaty appreciated guys!

Cheers for now
Hayden Lynch

What do you mean by full drawings? Bear in mind that key token instruments are still actively used in the UK, so detailed part drawings are probably only available from the manufacturer and would have commercial and security sensitivity.

In any case, I would suggest that you would have better luck in a UK rail group. Key token instruments have never been used in Australia, and so you would be lucky indeed to find someone in an Australian newsgroup with that information.

What do you mean by full drawings? Bear in mind that key token instruments are still actively used in the UK, so detailed part drawings are probably only available from the manufacturer and would have commercial and security sensitivity.

In any case, I would suggest that you would have better luck in a UK rail group. Key token instruments have never been used in Australia, and so you would be lucky indeed to find someone in an Australian newsgroup with that information.

You might want to check your facts.

Parkes to Peak Hill minature elec staff was a key staff for trains to lock themselves into Goonumbla siding with the staff being locked away in a draw instrument at Goonumbla.

Try ARHS archieves section for these drawings.

You might want to check your facts.

I am quite confident of my facts, thank you nasty one.

Parkes to Peak Hill minature elec staff was a key staff for trains to lock themselves into Goonumbla siding with the staff being locked away in a draw instrument at Goonumbla.

There is a difference between key token instruments and key staffs. The original post asked about instruments and illustrated a key token instrument.

A key token instrument is a specific type of electric token instruments. Other types of token instruments are Tyers Tablet and Electric Staff instruments. Key token instruments were invented on the GWR and manufactured by Tyers. As I said, Key Token instruments were never used in Australia. By the time they had been invented the various Australian railways had standardised on other types of instruments (largely electric staff).

Key staffs were simply the application of an ordinary Annett key to the end of an electric staff to unlock an intermediate siding. They were common in NSW.

You might want to check your facts.

Mate, I can assure you he genuinely knows his stuff here.  Let it pass.

________________________________


May as well ask you; what is the difference between the two?  I know the difference between Tyers tablet system and electric staff in a passing manner, but key tokens I know 1/10th of very little.

As a slightly OT point of interest, there is one CityRail line where electric staff is still used - the Kiama-Bomaderry (Nowra) branch of the South Coast line 8)

You might want to check your facts.

Mate, I can assure you he genuinely knows his stuff here.  Let it pass.

________________________________


May as well ask you; what is the difference between the two?  I know the difference between Tyers tablet system and electric staff in a passing manner, but key tokens I know 1/10th of very little.

Was not going to say any thing further anyway mate.
________________________________

May as well ask you; what is the difference between the two?  I know the difference between Tyers tablet system and electric staff in a passing manner, but key tokens I know 1/10th of very little.

Is "Tyers tablet" the "Electric Tablet" system that saw limited use in Victoria?

Is "Tyers tablet" the "Electric Tablet" system that saw limited use in Victoria?

The VR used Tyers No.5 Tablet (after a very brief flirtation with the No 1 version). They were in use from 1892, but Electric Staff began being implemented in 1895, so limited in time, but had quiite a wide coverage as tablets were used over (amongst others) the North Eastern line and the South Western line.  I am not certain when the last tablet section was in use, but they were still in use on the line through Brooklyn in 1960.

C D Gavan Duffy managed to obtain two of the last instruments in use: from memory, one is in Seymour and the other is in the ARHS Museum.

Duttonbay has given most of the details, I'll just fill in a few gaps.

There was only one section of No 1 Pattern Tablet in Victoria: Goulburn Junction - Seymour. We don't know where the VR got the instruments, but they were well and truely obsolete when installed.

No 5 Pattern Tablet was never used on the Warrnambool line - it went straight from Staff & Ticket to Electric Staff. It's main use was on the North East main line where it lasted until around 1913. After that odd sections survived - it was used between North Fitztroy A and Northcote Loop Junction on the Suburban line until 1932, for example. The very last sections were, as duttonbay says, on the Brooklyn loop line: Newport - Thomas Mill - Brooklyn A - Sunshine. The very last section was Brooklyn A - Sunshine which went in 1960.

May as well ask you; what is the difference between the two? I know the difference between Tyers tablet system and electric staff in a passing manner, but key tokens I know 1/10th of very little.

The token in a key token is, well, a key (duh, I know). It's easier to look at a photo than describe it. This page illustrates different types of tokens
http://www.trainweb.org/rcn_uk/slt.html. Key tokens are towards the bottom.

Electrically, a key token instrument is very similar in principle to an electric staff instrument. Removing or inserting a key changes the polarity of the current sent to line and a token can only be removed if a polarised lock lifts when receiving current of correct polarity. Mechanically, they are much better designed than an electric staff instrument. If you have ever seen inside a staff instrument, it is solid brass and cast iron, almost impossible to work on. Key Token instruments innards are easily accessible and the case just lifts off.

If you've got enough money you can still buy new key token instruments from the UK company STSRail http://www.sts-rail.com/other/key_tokens_instruments/index.html

No 5 Pattern Tablet was never used on the Warrnambool line - it went straight from Staff & Ticket to Electric Staff.

Apologies for the misleading information. I have no idea why I mentioned the South Western line.  Trying to reply to posts and do my daytime job simultaneously, I guess...

A couple of other places were there were tablets were Moorabool-Gheringhap when the viaduct was singled (this section later becoming the first use of electric staff in Victoria) and Nyora-Korumburra.

Some other odd sections: Williamstown Beach to Williamstown during the wheat season, when the double line was operated as two independent single lines, and interestingly, when the North Geelong loop opened there was no C box, and tablet controlled the line around the loop all the way to Moorabool where it joined the line to Ballarat.

Some other odd sections: Williamstown Beach to Williamstown during the wheat season, when the double line was operated as two independent single lines, and interestingly, when the North Geelong loop opened there was no C box, and tablet controlled the line around the loop all the way to Moorabool where it joined the line to Ballarat.

Where there were two adjacent single lines, the VR liked to use tablet on one line and electric stafff on the other. This obviously reduced the chance of confusion on the part of the train crew or station staff! In more recent times, they have used large and miniature electric staff in the same way - the Brooklyn loop was a good example.

The two examples quoted by duttonbay, and my earlier example of North Fitzroy A - Northcote Loop Junction, all fell into this category. One additional example (which I always forget about) was Wodonga B - Wodonga Coal Sidings - Albury South on the standard gauge line. It's not clear when these instruments went out of service (perhaps a NSW reader can help). The Coal Sidings - Albury South were withdrawn in 1954 when both lines were gauntletted over the bridges, and large electric staff was provided on that section in 1961 when the separate lines were restored. The Wodonga - Coal Sidings section is less clear; certainly it was large electric staff in 1964 - but does this date from 1961 or 1954?

There was a Tablet system used in NSW and I read but avoided qualifying in it when I did my Safeworking, circa 1962 in which I did TBA and Block Telegraph (double line)
By the time I did single line Staff and Ticket and Electric Staff mid 1966, Tablet was no more or at least I didnt have to qualify in it.
The only section I know that still had it in use was the Blayney to Carcoar section around 1964/65?
I have a feeling when the Tablet was removed from Blayney, it might have been replaced with Staff and Ticket as the Blayney to Demondrille branch was by then running few trains.
According to the General Appendix part 2 of 1944, this tablet was round (wood with metal band)  and was raised with a sort of lever and once removed could not be reinserted into that machine. It had to travel the section.

Hi all,

I'm currently trying to hunt down some drawings of the electric token block instruments. Those of you who don't necessarily know what one is, here's a picture of one below:-

Any help would be greaty appreciated guys!

Cheers for now
Hayden Lynch

Hello All,

attached is a link from the GWR Instructions, 1938 for working Tyers No 9 Key token Instrument

( http://www.gwr.org.uk/electric-token.html )

I understand that the NSWGR used all versions of Tyers Electric Tablet , including rebuilds ( presumably to make non returnable instruments returnable ) except for 7B which was specifically for the GWR !

Regards, Radioman.

Hi all,

I'm currently trying to hunt down some drawings of the electric token block instruments. Those of you who don't necessarily know what one is, here's a picture of one below:-

Any help would be greaty appreciated guys!

Cheers for now
Hayden Lynch

Hello All,

attached is a link from the GWR Instructions, 1938 for working Tyers No 9 Key token Instrument

( http://www.gwr.org.uk/electric-token.html )

I understand that the NSWGR used all versions of Tyers Electric Tablet , including rebuilds ( presumably to make non returnable instruments returnable ) except for 7B which was specifically for the GWR !

Regards, Radioman.

Thanks Radioman.
Very interesting.
Isn't it great to read a set of clear, straight forward and well worded instructions in good English unlike much of the ambiguous drivel that is written today?

Is "Tyers tablet" the "Electric Tablet" system that saw limited use in Victoria?

The VR used Tyers No.5 Tablet (after a very brief flirtation with the No 1 version). They were in use from 1892, but Electric Staff began being implemented in 1895, so limited in time, but had quiite a wide coverage as tablets were used over (amongst others) the North Eastern line and the South Western line.  I am not certain when the last tablet section was in use, but they were still in use on the line through Brooklyn in 1960.

Hello "duttonbay", "wongm", "HaydenLynch" and others,

the Instrument that HaydnLynch illustrates is an Electric Key Token Instrument / EKT, which originated on the Great Western Railway of England / GWR, and jointly patented by messrs A.T. ( Alfred ) Blackall and C.M. ( Charles ) Jacobs in 1912, and was then licensed to Tyer&Co., ( as Tyer's No. 9 Key Token Instrument ) , but was known by the GWR as the Electric Train Token.

The Southern Railway of England / SR first installed EKT in 1932 at Hamworthy Jcn to Broadstone, and in 1943 Eling Jcn to Marchwood ( renamed Totton in 1950 ), but the bulk of EKT installations on the British Railways - Southern Region / BR-SR, as successor to the SR, were installed from 1954 to a BR-WR pattern, and from 1961 to a BR-SR pattern. ( I am unaware as to what the actual differences are ). These Instruments primarily replaced the London & South Western Railway / LSWR, later the Western Division of both the SR and BR-SR, Tyer's No. 6 Electric Train Tablet / ETT Instruments.

The Tyer's No. 6 ETT was the most widespread ETT Instrument in use in the UK. It was basically a modification of Tyer's No. 3 Instrument, and many No. 3 Instruments were modified to the No. 6 Pattern. The NSWGR used both the No. 3 and the No. 6 Instruments, and many No. 3 Instruments ( called Modified No.3 ) were upgraded to a No. 6 Instrument.

The Tyer's nos 1, 2, 3, and 4 ETT Instruments were non returnable, meaning that once a Tablet had been withdrawn from the Instrument , it could not be re-inserted back into the issuing Instrument. The No. 6 Instrument was a returnable Instrument, and as the designers a modification of the No. 3 Instrument, you can see why many No.3 instruments were modified into a No. 6 instrument. The Webb-Thompson Ordinary or Large Electric Staff / LES  Instruments, and the subsequent Miniature Electric Staff  / MES Instruments, both of which saw widespread use in Australia, did not have the non returnable limitation of the Tyer's ETT Instruments, and the MES cost half the price of a Tyer's No. 3 Instrument, hence one reason why the MES was popular on Australian railways.

Railways in England with Joint Single Lines tended to use a Tyer's No. 6 Instrument due to its widespread usage. The Tyer's No.5 ETT Instrument, also non returnable, was available as either a Non Permissive ETT Instrument, or as a Permissive ETT  Instrument , which I understand the later may have been used by the NSWGR for race trains ! The Permissive Instrument was originally suppled for use near Glasgow in Scotland for a Goods Only Line. When used for passenger trains, where Absolute Block between trains is required, the Tyer's Permissive No. 5 Instrument could be used with an Intermediate Block Post to ensure the safe passage of trains. In Australia, and elsewhere, either Divided or Composite Staff operation could be used in similar circumstances.

The Tyer's No.5 use by the VR may have originated due to the NSWGR use of Tyer's ETT on the Main South Line to Albury. From the 1920s, the VR replaced Tyer's ETT with the MES Instruments, and I understand that the VR replaced the bulk of its ETT prior to WW2, though it is correct that the last ETT was in use at Brooklyn in 1960, and I only found this out when I met the Signalman who was its last user !

Best wishes and regards to all, Radioman

Hello All,

further to my last comments, the following website may be of interest,

([size=4][font=Helvetica]http://www.trainweb.org/singleline/index.htm[/font][/size] )


as it primarily illustrates various Single Line Token Instruments in Anglia ( eastern England ).

I have also consulted the the NSWGR GA Part II, 1944, wherein Tyer's Electric Train Tablet No. 3 for Scone is illustrated on p 120; Tyer's No. 5 ETT for Hanbury Jcn is illustrated on p 121; Tyer's No.6 for Illabo is illustrated on p 122; the Webb-Thompson pattern Ordinary ( or Large ) Electric Staff Instrument for Dungong is illustrated on pp 123 - 124; the Miniature Electric Train Staff Instrument on p125: and the Intermediate Miniature Electric Train Staff Instrument on pp 126 - 127.

The Intermediate MES Instrument on pp 126 - 127  has 8 staff columns, compared to the 4 staff columns on the MES Instrument on p 125. Does anyone know why please ?

Also the LES Instrument for Dungong has 3 staff columns, and a shamrock wheel located at the top of the staff columns, does anyone know the purpose of the shamrock wheel ?, and why the use of three staff columns ? , where LES Instruments elsewhere usually have only 2 staff columns ( ref VR GA 1953 drawing p513 ) , with the very early versions having only one staff column.

The Webb-Thompson Instruments were patented and manufactured at the London & North Western Railway's Crewe Works, also the location of the LNWR Signals Workshop, from 1888, and licensed for manufacture to the Railway Signal Co., ( RSCo ) Fazakerley, Liverpool , from 1893.

However, as the NSWGR bought their first pair of Webb-Thompson Instruments in 1891, presumably the LNWR was happy to sell them to other railways.

The RSCo was advertising new MES Instruments for sale in 1948, so presumably manufacture of the MES Instruments ceased at some later date.

As "Historian" has previously indicated , those so inclined to purchase new can do so !

There is now a new version of the EKT Instrument available fro Park signalling, which enables both remote operation and the use of secure communications over public networks, thereby eliminating the transmission by suspended telegraph / telephone aerial wires. Existing Instruments can also be upgraded to this standard.

( http://www.park-signalling.co.uk/dibloc.html )

Best wishes and regards, Radioman.