Who is winning The RACE (part 2)?

 
  Draffa Chief Commissioner

In ancient times it was the goat.
Pastafarians know it's actually the Flying Spagetti monster himself.  He does these things for his own noodly amusement.

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  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research

It certainly is optimistic -but it also gives us until March 2012 to be wrong, still 11 months away.
Tooling is after all supposed to be 99% complete, and there are not that many schemes that are being done in the first run.
Having said that, I kind of expect the TrainOrama 48/830's will blow out to late next year.  I just need more evidence.

Regards,

Toby
"DQ2004"


As any good project manager knows, beware of any project said to be 99% complete (unless you are looking for a year of work of course).

Mark
  Iain Chief Commissioner

Location: Concord, NSW
There were some samples of a painted 48 in Toms when I breezed past yesterday. Not sure of their status though.

I am depressed about the sound CPH projected release dates though.

I also suspect for projects that are not near fully subscribed the production speed is slowed down by the manufacturers in Australia.

Is the RACE going to give an annual prize like the gold logie for the most outrageously optimistic production schedule put out my a manufacturer?
  Draffa Chief Commissioner

That'd have to be Eureka without a doubt, wouldn't it (I have no dog in the R class fight)?
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Toby,

Is the possible SEPT release date of the Eureka Sound equipped CPH in your RACE list just an assumption?

Eureka have always told us punters to "believe their news" straight from the horse's (sorry goat's) mouth in their full page advertisements in AMRM.

Am willing to stand corrected:

- The December 2010 issue of AMRM advert noted Jan 2011 as an arrival date.

- The February  2011 issue of AMRM advert noted Jan 2011 as an arrival date.

- The April 2011 issue of AMRM advert noted Jan 2011 as an arrival date, but was mentioned in the NEWS column of the same issue that "late April" as an arrival date for the Eureka sound equipped CPH.


They shoot horse's don't they?

Regards,

Catchpoint
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
That'd have to be Eureka without a doubt, wouldn't it (I have no dog in the R class fight)?
"Draffa"


It would be if you are only taking into account the Fantastic Plastic from China, but Broad Gauge Model's 10+ years for the J Class takes some beating.
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
Is the possible SEPT release date of the Eureka Sound equipped CPH in your RACE list just an assumption?
"catchpoint"


Absolutely it is an assumption, or if you prefer, a guesstimate.

It is based on the available (lack of) information.  Eureka, as you point out, is notoriously overoptimistic with its estimates.
Given that theres has been no news regarding the CPH sound units, I've based it on an assumption that now that the Garratts are completed the CPH's should be done relatively soon -this is one of the more difficult predictions in fact, especially given how Eureka remains optimistic despite so many delays in China.

Regards,
Toby
  Draffa Chief Commissioner

It would be if you are only taking into account the Fantastic Plastic from China
"TheBlacksmith"
I am, but only because that's what The Race is tracking.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Toby,

Is the possible SEPT release date of the Eureka Sound equipped CPH in your RACE list just an assumption?

Eureka have always told us punters to "believe their news" straight from the horse's (sorry goat's) mouth in their full page advertisements in AMRM.

Am willing to stand corrected:

- The December 2010 issue of AMRM advert noted Jan 2011 as an arrival date.

- The February  2011 issue of AMRM advert noted Jan 2011 as an arrival date.

- The April 2011 issue of AMRM advert noted Jan 2011 as an arrival date, but was mentioned in the NEWS column of the same issue that "late April" as an arrival date for the Eureka sound equipped CPH.


They shoot horse's don't they?

Regards,

Catchpoint
"catchpoint"


The whole situation is a debacle to say the least, & seriously none of them can be not included, including Powerline, Auscision, TOR & certainly not forgetting Eureka.  Given that each model has different cut off dates to take advantage of the original forcast arrival times, the early Eureka adds promoted the concept of the model arriving somewhere around 6 months after the date that reads  "after xxxx but prior to delivery"

The Eureka web site then is adjusted accordingly to suit the new arrival years, yet a glance at their order page still has the following

Our HO NSWGR CPH/CTH Rail Motor Set is due in

 Available Now
(Non-sound Only)
(Sound due: 2010)

Full payment received before 30 June, 2007:  $375.00
Payment received after 30 June 2007 but before delivery:   $400.00
Factory fitted QSI sound module, suitable for DC and DCC operation add $99.00
Factory weathered add $25.00

40 Class A1A-A1A
2010
Full Paument recieved before 30th June 2008 $245.00  
Full payment received after 30th June 2008 but before delivery $270.00  
After delivery price:  will be determined by currency movements, but is expected to be $295.00
Factory fitted QSI sound module, suitable for 12v DC and DCC peration add$99.00
Factory weathered add$25.00


[/b]
Note no date for the CPH on the order page, but it was supposed to be end 2007 then 08 etc etc.  & the 40 class which has no information about it at all from Eureka was also due around that same time 2008, & after all anewsletter in 2008 had the comment that the factory had been told to start production.

Why the delays, yet the 60cl rerun is almost on us, something only announced less then 18months ago or something, while also the 40cl was in production.

How come a rerun model not in production can be shipped with sound, & a model that has waited for years for the sound version to arrive is still not in sight, nor one that was supposed to be in production is still to come?
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

You can also add that the Order Pages for the CPH and 40 class give no details of road numbers available. We are expected to troll back through past editions of the Eureak Times to find such details. Strange way to do business.
  hanovale Deputy Commissioner

That'd have to be Eureka without a doubt, wouldn't it (I have no dog in the R class fight)?
"Draffa"


It would be if you are only taking into account the Fantastic Plastic from China, but Broad Gauge Model's 10+ years for the J Class takes some beating.
"TheBlacksmith"


There are probably any number of plastic rtr models that have been announced but that never eventuated but I think the record for the longest delay between announcement and delivery (so far) probably goes to John Eassie and the 442. It was announced in 1986 and was listed in his AMRM advertisements in late 1986 with an expected arrival date of sometime in 1987 (expected cost around $110). It arrived close to 20 years later. The R class has a way to go if Ron Cunningham is after that title.

Also announced at the same time, but not sufficiently advanced to make into the ads, were: a 620/720 set, a (Sydney?) electric interurban, the C36, CDY open wagon, ACM coach, BX car, VHO van and SOP cars. Some of these were eventually released, although not all by companies associated at the time with John Eassie. Others have been done as kits but never as rtr.
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
A few more (interesting?) lists...

From The RACE Officials

There are still quite a few classes that are not available. Some of them are very unlikely to ever be available in plastic RTR.
There are surprisingly more available still, than you might think, although of course out of each of those many have only a few left available from their respective producers and retailers.
There are plenty that have been announced (the list only includes the official announcements, not rumoured).  But surprisingly few that you can't get at all (except seconhand -don't mention the 'e' word).

Lists are arranged mostly in order of newest on top, and first owner of the class is also listed.  It is only standard and broad gauge locomotives.  Also only steam locomotives that have been produced or officially announced are included.  Brass or kits produced are not included.

Whats missing? (not officially announced)
XRN class Xstrata Rail (Freightliner)
WH class Whitehaven Coal
TT class Pacific National
6000 class QR National
AC class ARG (QRN)
LDP class QR National (EDI)
92 class Pacific National
VL class CFCLA
MZ class Independent Rail
2800 class QR National (only 2819 -now back on narrow gauge as PA 2819)
RL class Coote Industrial
5000 class QR National
XR class Freight Australia
FQ class FreightLink
423 class Interrail
V class Freight Australia
Q class Westrail
90 class Freightcorp
85 class electric NSW PTC
NB class Westrail (18 class Austrac)
AL class Australian National Rlys
K class WAGR
H class WAGR
J class WAGR
71 class NSWGR
70 class NSWGR
45 class Electric (later 7100) NSWGR
W class VR
800 class SAR
L class electric VR
41 class NSWGR
500 class SAR
F class
900 class SAR
79 class NSWGR
E class Electric VR
+ lots of steam locomotives!

Whats available?
Austrains NR class National Rail
Austrains CLP class Australian National
Auscision EL class Australian National
Austrains DL class Australian National
Auscision N class V/Line
Auscision A class V/Line
Powerline G class V/Line
Powerline BL class Australian National
Powerline 81 class NSW SRA
Austrains 80 class
Austrains C class
TrainOrama 47 class
Austrains CL class
Lima 422 class
Austrains X class
TrainOrama 49 class
Powerline 48 class
TrainOrama 44 class
TrainOrama 930 class
Powerline T class
TrainOrama S class
TrainOrama 42 class
Auscision B class
STEAM:
Eureka AD60 class (available to order and arriving next month)
Eureka 38 class
Austrains C36 class
Austrains C35 class
Austrains NN class
TrainOrama C32 class

What's going to be available (at some point)?
Railmotor Models SCT class SCT
Auscision GL class CFCLA
TrainOrama 82 class FreightCorp
Auscision AN class Australian National
Austrains P class V/Line
Austrains G class V/Line
Austrains BL class Australian National
Austrains 81 class NSW SRA
Auscision 86 class Electric NSW SRA
Auscision XPT set NSW SRA
Austrains 442 class NSWGR [RR]
Austrains 700 class SAR [RR]
TrainOrama L class WAGR
Austrains 421 class NSWGR [RR]
Austrains Y class VR [RR]
Auscision 73 class NSWGR
TrainOrama 600 class SAR
TrainOrama 45 class NSWGR
TrainOrama 830 class SAR
TrainOrama 48 class NSWGR
Auscision 46 class Electric NSWGR
Eureka 43 class NSWGR
TrainOrama GM class Comm Rlys
Eureka 40 class NSWGR
STEAM:
Eureka D59 class NSWGR
Eureka R class VR
Eureka D58 class NSWGR
Eureka D57 class NSWGR
Eureka K class VR
TrainOrama D53 class NSWGR
Eureka C30 class NSWGR
TrainOrama D50 class NSWGR

What was available but now isn’t? (excepting secondhand of course)
AR Kits 81 class NSW SRA
Austrains CK class Australian National
Austrains CLF class Australian National
Austrains H clas VR
Austrains T class VR
AR Kits 45 class NSWGR
AR Kits 600 class SAR

Remarkably little that you can't get nowadays, surprisingly, even if you may not be able to get exactly the number and colour scheme you would prefer.

Warm regards,
Toby
  Atlantic Rail Locomotive Fireman

Once again a big thank you to The Race authors for keeping us informed. If only the manufactures would!

I currently have no orders/deposits paid with any of the manufactures, so I consider myself lucky. My last order from Austrains CLP in QR colours recently arrived.

I can understand delays in manufacturing, try to get details right etc, but what I don't like is when I've paid a deposit or in full, or even placed an order, and then not receiving any communication or updates at all. I know a lot of our manufactures are part time concerns, but most have web sites, so really, how hard is it really to post on a blog and keep you customers informed Question
  Iain Chief Commissioner

Location: Concord, NSW
Dear Masters of the RACE.

I have in my possession a flyer from Eureka given to me on Sat 23/4/2011 proudly announcing    The K class in four variations

Due mid 2012.

So I think we can officially start the clock ticking.

IainS
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Dear Masters of the RACE.

I have in my possession a flyer from Eureka given to me on Sat 23/4/2011 proudly announcing    The K class in four variations

Due mid 2012.

So I think we can officially start the clock ticking.

IainS
"Iain"


Is this the point at which we start a Eureka K Class thread? Also, did Ron give any suggestion as to when this would be up on the website?
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
Dear Masters of the RACE.
I have in my possession a flyer from Eureka given to me on Sat 23/4/2011 proudly announcing    The K class in four variations
Due mid 2012.
So I think we can officially start the clock ticking.
IainS
"Iain"


You can start the clock, but don't expect the thing to arrive mid next year.
I guarantee you will be disappointed.

Regards,

Toby
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
Dear Masters of the RACE.

I have in my possession a flyer from Eureka given to me on Sat 23/4/2011 proudly announcing    The K class in four variations

Due mid 2012.

So I think we can officially start the clock ticking.

IainS
"Iain"


Is this the point at which we start a Eureka K Class thread? Also, did Ron give any suggestion as to when this would be up on the website?
"TheMeddlingMonk"


Same here, (got mine Sunday...) exciting times ahead! Very Happy

Clock can start, but hold it for now, probably better waiting for samples so people aren't speculating/complaining until the sample photos are online or it's shown at a show etc.

All in good time I suppose, you could probably start a thread, but as above, may as well hold off until a sample is sighted and there's something more to discuss? I sort of overheard a few things while looking at the R Class samples close up (and trying to to be too tempted to have them come home with me! Twisted EvilLaughing ), but didn't hear the critical information. All in good time, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Wolfpac
  a6et Minister for Railways

Dear Masters of the RACE.

I have in my possession a flyer from Eureka given to me on Sat 23/4/2011 proudly announcing    The K class in four variations

Due mid 2012.

So I think we can officially start the clock ticking.

IainS
"Iain"


Is this the point at which we start a Eureka K Class thread? Also, did Ron give any suggestion as to when this would be up on the website?
"TheMeddlingMonk"


Same here, (got mine Sunday...) exciting times ahead! Very Happy

Clock can start, but hold it for now, probably better waiting for samples so people aren't speculating/complaining until the sample photos are online or it's shown at a show etc.

All in good time I suppose, you could probably start a thread, but as above, may as well hold off until a sample is sighted and there's something more to discuss? I sort of overheard a few things while looking at the R Class samples close up (and trying to to be too tempted to have them come home with me! Twisted EvilLaughing ), but didn't hear the critical information. All in good time, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Wolfpac
"wolfpac"


Maybe it is time to start it, as it would be a good time clock for them.
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
Maybe it is time to start it, as it would be a good time clock for them.
"a6et"


Well there's no doubt that Ron is guilty of rampant optimism and I have attempted to raise this with him but he is convinced that he has built enough margin for error within his ETA's for things.

The last newsletters indicated that tooling of the K class was to commence shortly, or has by now.  Thats fine, but as I have noted elsewhere in this thread, no model has done better than 18 months from pilot models arriving to model arriving on layouts.  Which does not include the time for the initial tooling to be done.  Which I'm pretty sure (albeit not being an expert) is going to be one of the longest parts of the whole model producing process!

Putting it bluntly, if we look at past history, there's simply no way that they're going to arrive in 12 months.  Not even 24 months, IMHO.

So I really don't know what is going on at Eureka.
I don't believe that having these models arriving late is going to convince him that he needs to double his estimations (at least) either.

However, it is true that he does label them as 'due'.  This is probably not the best way of putting it, but nor is it an absolute.  Maybe he should change it to ETA so as not to get people too excited.

Regards,

Toby
  a6et Minister for Railways

Maybe it is time to start it, as it would be a good time clock for them.
"a6et"


Well there's no doubt that Ron is guilty of rampant optimism and I have attempted to raise this with him but he is convinced that he has built enough margin for error within his ETA's for things.

The last newsletters indicated that tooling of the K class was to commence shortly, or has by now.  Thats fine, but as I have noted elsewhere in this thread, no model has done better than 18 months from pilot models arriving to model arriving on layouts.  Which does not include the time for the initial tooling to be done.  Which I'm pretty sure (albeit not being an expert) is going to be one of the longest parts of the whole model producing process!

Putting it bluntly, if we look at past history, there's simply no way that they're going to arrive in 12 months.  Not even 24 months, IMHO.

So I really don't know what is going on at Eureka.
I don't believe that having these models arriving late is going to convince him that he needs to double his estimations (at least) either.

However, it is true that he does label them as 'due'.  This is probably not the best way of putting it, but nor is it an absolute.  Maybe he should change it to ETA so as not to get people too excited.

Regards,

Toby
"DQ2004"


Toby all you say is true, & overall most of your qustimations also come in on the optimistic side as well, which is also sad.

Sader still is that Ron thinks he is right, & to try & convince him otherwise is always a fruitless task, I also see no point in the continuing in a manner that has so far shown up as being wrong & causing so much angst among modellers, that is, his clients & customer base.

I wonder often if he thinks that by constantly announcing new models that end up with huge lead times is a way to actually show his clients that something is happening, yet destroys it by no news or reports.  It does not help when he announces new models, wants money up front when there is constant delays to existing long gone due dates of models that many have paid up front for years ago.

No one would be concerned either with straight reruns between new ones, but to undergo retooling & new toolings for models such as the garratt, & get it out before others is also a slap in the face to those with money already paid out for models that have been in production for something like 2 or more years, & that is what he has been saying at exhibitions now for that long.

It would be far better to concentrate on getting the backlog finished, or at least actually/factually being produced, with shipping imminent (say 2-3 months) & then announce a new project, that may have even had tooling done on it.

Given that he is now asking for money up front with short EB discounts on sight unseen models, even test shots then its a bit much to expect those who have been burnt to give him the support he expects.  In fact for mine it is pointless asking for deposits & announcing a new model until the test model shots are seen by the clients, certainly there has been enough issues with models in the past in this regard.  

Whilst the Rclass test shots show that something has been done, gee there's not much to go by with them.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Whilst the Rclass test shots show that something has been done, gee there's not much to go by with them.
"a6et"


Except that the parts shown are by far the most complex parts of the model, being moulded by the multi-section mould tool.  And if they are right (which I am told by the designer they are), then the remainder will be much easier to produce.

By the way, you went on about how everybody was getting on Trainorama's case and asking why no-one was criticising a 'certain' other manufacturer. Now that you seem comfortable enough in naming Eureka, you might consider getting off his case yourself, as you are becoming quite repetitive in your criticisms of him.

While Ron may not be the best at communicating with his customers, he is making an effort to produce unique models that the others are not touching. If you don't like putting money upfront, don't. Wait till they arrive and take your chances.

No one would be concerned either with straight reruns between new ones, but to undergo retooling & new toolings for models such as the garratt, & get it out before others is also a slap in the face to those with money already paid out for models that have been in production for something like 2 or more years, & that is what he has been saying at exhibitions now for that long.
"a6et"


You are making a quite erroneous assumption that the tooling work is a single threaded process. Companies like the one Ron is using have many people working on tooling concurrently, otherwise how could they do work for multiple customers?

It is highly likely that the new tooling is being worked on by one team while changes and alterations are being executed by another team. It would also mean that small tooling changes can be completed in much less time than a totally new tool. The dies used today have many parts to them, and it is very likely that individual workers are working on only one part, not the entire tool.

It does not therefore follow that promised models are being held up by re-released models.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Whilst the Rclass test shots show that something has been done, gee there's not much to go by with them.
"a6et"


Except that the parts shown are by far the most complex parts of the model, being moulded by the multi-section mould tool.  And if they are right (which I am told by the designer they are), then the remainder will be much easier to produce.

By the way, you went on about how everybody was getting on Trainorama's case and asking why no-one was criticising a 'certain' other manufacturer. Now that you seem comfortable enough in naming Eureka, you might consider getting off his case yourself, as you are becoming quite repetitive in your criticisms of him.

While Ron may not be the best at communicating with his customers, he is making an effort to produce unique models that the others are not touching. If you don't like putting money upfront, don't. Wait till they arrive and take your chances.
"TheBlacksmith"


I give credit where its due, & have not been backwards in making comments against TOR either.  

There is a difference when you try to get information via an email &/or telephone & never get a reply.

I have money paid up front for the 40cl as I did with the garratt, in the past I was very much supportive of the deposit & EB discount scheme, but that support has waned owing to the protracted delays, & no real reason given for them. It does not help, & this is the point of the whole vexed question/debate/arguement, when he tells you & all that ask that a model that is asked about is in production & will arrive at a particular date/month.  I accept some delays are inevitable but, when you are told the same thing for 2 years at every exhibition, & others tell the same thing, then answers need to be given.

On the score of paying up front, I still agree with the concept, & have placed orders for models with deposits from others at the moment, something I will continue to do, & would possibly do again with Eureka, but I would want to see some improvements from them before commiting again.

Also, if you also care to check out other posts that I have made in regard to delays, especially in regard to the sound models, I have been quite up front by saying that the upheavels in China with the old factory has been a significant part of the problem & NOT the fault of Eureka, & the factory has led Eureka (& others) up the garden path. Likewise the sound issue is not their fault either, by that the delays or the placing of incorrect sounds in them.

I certainly hope the R class models do make the grade, just like I do with all other models from all those who have promised models but, PR is still a huge portion of any business both small & large, both in hobbies as well as in big business.
  a6et Minister for Railways



No one would be concerned either with straight reruns between new ones, but to undergo retooling & new toolings for models such as the garratt, & get it out before others is also a slap in the face to those with money already paid out for models that have been in production for something like 2 or more years, & that is what he has been saying at exhibitions now for that long.
"a6et"


You are making a quite erroneous assumption that the tooling work is a single threaded process. Companies like the one Ron is using have many people working on tooling concurrently, otherwise how could they do work for multiple customers?

It is highly likely that the new tooling is being worked on by one team while changes and alterations are being executed by another team. It would also mean that small tooling changes can be completed in much less time than a totally new tool. The dies used today have many parts to them, and it is very likely that individual workers are working on only one part, not the entire tool.

It does not therefore follow that promised models are being held up by re-released models.
"TheBlacksmith"


The thrust of what I am saying is nothing more than the fact that there were many complainants before me regarding Eureka producing models out of course of their announcements.  In fact that has been a huge issue with those who have ordered & paid for the Rclass, & that is why I am saying what I have.  Oh Sure I have mentioned the 40cl, but that also is in line as well.

I have also seen the same criticism leveled by others against TOR when they brought straight reruns of other models instead of the long awaited 32cl as well as the S & 42cl.  

Whilst it may not "therefore follow that promised model are being held up by re-released models" the perception is there that there could be more concentration on what has been waited for over a long period of time.

However, one of the earlier things that were said when the "plastic fantastic from China" was in the early stages was the promotion of how each importer had their own dedicated team assigned to each of them. Since then, it appears that this has not been the case but at least the former factory had one engineer for the Australian clients which I would assume had their own team.  Certainly when the production line came into operation it would have been more of a common team.

Things do change though, as you only need to read some of the issues that Austrains had with the factory, where one of the yet to be released models had several engineers involved & none seemingly working together, thus projected delays.

Out of all of this, there is but one hope that I have & I think that everyone else has, & that is the new factory will be better, & from what I understand, & even what Ron has said is that they are getting a faster process at the new factory.
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
Can any body fill me in on the relationship between Eureka models & Tom's at West Ryde? I have noticed the last few times I have shopped at Toms that it has been staffed by some Chinese people. The shop can be staffed by Eskimos for all I care but I just wondering if they had something to do with the Eureka side of things. It would seem sensible to have some Chinese speaking personnel to liaise with Chinese producers.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
A company that wants people to buy their goods needs good CUSTOMER relations to keep going. Auscision seem to be able to answer queries and we all know they have day jobs as well, so why do Eureka stick their head in the sand and hope the questions will go away. It does not look good to perspective customers that they do this. Me being one by the way.

I don't mean that you should be bombarding them with Emails about when, when, when about something you ordered but a polite question here or there should get a polite answer really, not dead silence. If other importer's can give reasons for holdup's with models honestly why cannot Eureka. He seems to hold all his customers in contempt almost.

Some news that is actually news, on his website or blog would go a long way to appeasing most modellers. Not having a go at them really, just pointing out how it seems to most.

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