Realistic Trains?

 
  trainman3801 Chief Commissioner

Location: Why do you want to know?!?!?!
Hey all,

At the upcomming Liverpool exhibition, I am looking at buying a TrainOrama 44100 in Tuscan with silver pilots and a pack of NOFF wagons. They will be running with my Candy 4903 and other pack of NOFF's.

The final consist would be:
44100 in Tuscan, 4903 in candy and 12 NOFF wagons.

My question is, would this be a reasonably realistic train? Maybe not rivet-counter realistic but realistic enough to be appreciated?

Another train I am looking at making with my NR53 and TraileRail trailers is going to be NR53 (TraileRail), AN1 (National Rail), 5 RQIW'S and about 10 - 20 TraileRail trailers

The RQIW's will be loaded (3 with 2 20 foot containers and 2 with 2 40 foot containers) and attached in front of the TraileRail trailers as an "urgent" consignment of containers that are needed somewhere.

Simplified it would be:
NR53, AN1, 5x RQIW'S & 10 - 20 TraileRail trailers.

I was thinking that the train might be a bit over powered, but I just have to have a model of my most favourite loco of all time (AN1).

Thanks for your time, if it is too confusing then just ask.

P.S: if your wondering why I am asking about trains from different eras, it is because I don't model a specific era, I just model what trains I like. Wink

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  foxdemon Train Controller

Hi Trainman,

the American model railoraders have a saying:

"rule 1: it's my model railroad
rule 2: if you don't like what I'm doing, see rule 1"

It's your hobby and do what it takes to enjoy your free time.

If you want to be a bit more fastidious then you might run trains from one era at a time, changing car models on your scenery approapriately.

Other people have all sorts of different appoaches. Some do plenty of historical research and get things spot on at a historical representation. Then there are those that like operation. The famous Wingrove layout (see AMRA, august 1983) focuses on operation with not prototype or indeed scenery.
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
Hey all,

At the upcomming Liverpool exhibition, I am looking at buying a TrainOrama 44100 in Tuscan with silver pilots and a pack of NOFF wagons. They will be running with my Candy 4903 and other pack of NOFF's.

The final consist would be:
44100 in Tuscan, 4903 in candy and 12 NOFF wagons.

My question is, would this be a reasonably realistic train? Maybe not rivet-counter realistic but realistic enough to be appreciated?

Another train I am looking at making with my NR53 and TraileRail trailers is going to be NR53 (TraileRail), AN1 (National Rail), 5 RQIW'S and about 10 - 20 TraileRail trailers

The RQIW's will be loaded (3 with 2 20 foot containers and 2 with 2 40 foot containers) and attached in front of the TraileRail trailers as an "urgent" consignment of containers that are needed somewhere.

Simplified it would be:
NR53, AN1, 5x RQIW'S & 10 - 20 TraileRail trailers.

I was thinking that the train might be a bit over powered, but I just have to have a model of my most favourite loco of all time (AN1).

Thanks for your time, if it is too confusing then just ask.

P.S: if your wondering why I am asking about trains from different eras, it is because I don't model a specific era, I just model what trains I like. Wink
"trainman3801"


I don't know how the NSWGR ran their trains (mainly because I'm from down south  Laughing ), but to me these would seem fairly prototypical. I've seen a couple of photo's from the VR era consisting of a B, a couple of four wheelers and guards van, so it would work for me. You could also say that you're balancing loco's by running them the way you intend.

Basically, if it looks good to you, go for it!  Very Happy

As I said though, I'm not familiar with the NSWGR style but it's just my 5c.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
No one is going to raid your place and kick in the door and arrest you because you run that. Realistic or not it is your layout and you can run what you like on it. There is no model railway police etc not yet anyway.

I run everything from Australian, American, British and even European all on the same layout without changing anything in the scenery dept and have never had complaints.

Sometimes I have even run American on one track and British on the other, do what you want to do, and don't be mis-led into believing there is a right and proper way to do anything. There are thousands of ways to achieve anything if you want too. After all model railroading is supposed to be fun not a chore. So take a cue from the late Frank Sinatra and do it " My Way". Laughing
  hanovale Deputy Commissioner

I'm not getting into the "it's your railway, do what you want with it" argument. The question was simply whether the trains would be realistic, not whether the OP would be entitled to run them.

There are degrees of realism and what is realistic in one part of the state is not necessarily realistic in another. West of Narromine the 49 alone would be realistic with a dozen NOFFs (although that would be close to the load limit). Further south or east it would not have been unrealistic to see a 44 and 49 on the load, say between Narromine and Gulgong or Narromine and Parkes. The 49 probably would not travel much further than those centres. A dozen NOFFs is a small load; it would have been more common to see two 49s (or a mainliner and 49) and twice as many NOFFs.

It's getting into the rivet counting area but you would not have seen 44100 in tuscan and 4903 in candy together. 44100 was painted candy before the 49. 44100 was painted candy before the NOFFs were introduced.

I know little of the trailer rail trains but I have my doubts about the other train simply because it was most uncommon to see more than two or three RQIW on the same train.  There weren't very many of them. But until someone does a more numerous class of container skel (ie a 60 footer) then there's not a lot of choice when modelling a fairly shortlived train. It's not a horribly outlandish consist, just probably not right in detail.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I was always told and it is true really, that anything you do on a model railway has been done at some time on the prototype somewhere. So what ever you do really is realistic.

If I ran a NR with a single wagon on my layout, I would more and likely get some flack, like they dont do that, but I have seen it done in person and in a photograph of a NR on the mainline hauling a single wagon some place.
  trainman3801 Chief Commissioner

Location: Why do you want to know?!?!?!
Thanks for the replys guys but can we please stop with the "it's your layout, run whatever you like" statements?

I was really after what hanovalehas posted.

I have a choice of 4 44's with silver pilots.: 4425, 4480, 4483 or 44100. Would any of these run with the NOFF's and 4903 in candy?
  NR52 Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
I agree with hanovale but to answer one more question. I don't think your train would be overpowered as the Mk2 Austrains are extremely light compared to the first run because of the weight in the full tank being taken out so an NR and AN would be appropriate.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks for the replys guys but can we please stop with the "it's your layout, run whatever you like" statements?

I was really after what hanovalehas posted.

I have a choice of 4 44's with silver pilots.: 4425, 4480, 4483 or 44100. Would any of these run with the NOFF's and 4903 in candy?
"trainman3801"


From my memory, & this is based on the allocation of 44cl to the western region from 1970 onwards, following tests on the IP where 2x Mk11 44cl were run on it from at least Lithgow to BH, cannot remember the exaxt two 44's as my memo book of that era is lost,

Only Mk2 44's were allocated to Bathurst, 4471 - 100, replacing the 10 421 & 20 45cl, also those were the only 44cl that ever had the silver cow catcher pilot area painted, simply as an aide to the miserable little coupler light.

Certainly a 49 & any of the 44's in that grouping would be the better representative of such a train of NOFF's which I am assuming you are looking at doing a concentrate type train.
  hanovale Deputy Commissioner

I wish I could claim a memory good enough to be able to give an unequivocal answer to the question about 4425, 4480, 4483 and 44100.

I remember 44100 because it was the first locomotive (re)painted in the candy scheme so it could not have been in tuscan (indian red) with any candy loco. 4483 was candy before being painted blue. 4425 is likely to have been withdrawn before the NOFFs came along but it is a possibility. I don't think it was ever candy. 4480 was in the reverse colour scheme before being painted blue so would never have been tuscan in NOFF time.

It looks like you'll just have to bluff a bit but 44100 is, I think, the one most likley to be challenged, simply because it was the first candy. FWIW, 4903 was painted candy fairly early.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I wish I could claim a memory good enough to be able to give an unequivocal answer to the question about 4425, 4480, 4483 and 44100.

I remember 44100 because it was the first locomotive (re)painted in the candy scheme so it could not have been in tuscan (indian red) with any candy loco. 4483 was candy before being painted blue. 4425 is likely to have been withdrawn before the NOFFs came along but it is a possibility. I don't think it was ever candy. 4480 was in the reverse colour scheme before being painted blue so would never have been tuscan in NOFF time.

It looks like you'll just have to bluff a bit but 44100 is, I think, the one most likley to be challenged, simply because it was the first candy. FWIW, 4903 was painted candy fairly early.
"hanovale"


Hano

I have no idea about the NOFF's & when they came into service, but knowing the 44's that were allocated to the west, & I am only assuming the wagons were for the concentrate train, & the issue that surrounded the silver pilots, & from my experience I cannot reccolect ever seeing a MK1 or even working on one, or even a MK2 that was not a BX allocated engine with such painted pilots.

As the MK1 & first 10 Mk2's were Delec allocated engines, there was no permission given for the said painting.

Thus, depending on how close trainman3801 would like to be for his modelling purposes, with a 44+49 I would certainly suggest that the 44cl would need to be in the last 30 numbered ones.  Given your info, there is going to be some form of compromise anyway, so it would really depend on how much & what is preffered.


PS, could to see you're still around, trust all's going well.
  hanovale Deputy Commissioner


I have no idea about the NOFF's & when they came into service, but knowing the 44's that were allocated to the west, & I am only assuming the wagons were for the concentrate train,
"a6et"


The NOFFs were a short-lived group of concentrate wagons introduced in 1987 or 88 and out of revenue service only five or so years later. By this time there were very few indian red 44s remaining.
  trainman3801 Chief Commissioner

Location: Why do you want to know?!?!?!

I have no idea about the NOFF's & when they came into service, but knowing the 44's that were allocated to the west, & I am only assuming the wagons were for the concentrate train,
"a6et"


The NOFFs were a short-lived group of concentrate wagons introduced in 1987 or 88 and out of revenue service only five or so years later. By this time there were very few indian red 44s remaining.
"hanovale"


According to NSW Rollingstock, the NOFF's were introduced for concentrates, however they were uncessful in that roll so they were transfered to Sydney for use as spoil wagons.

Looks like I might have to try 4483?
  a6et Minister for Railways


I have no idea about the NOFF's & when they came into service, but knowing the 44's that were allocated to the west, & I am only assuming the wagons were for the concentrate train,
"a6et"


The NOFFs were a short-lived group of concentrate wagons introduced in 1987 or 88 and out of revenue service only five or so years later. By this time there were very few indian red 44s remaining.
"hanovale"


According to NSW Rollingstock, the NOFF's were introduced for concentrates, however they were uncessful in that roll so they were transfered to Sydney for use as spoil wagons.

Looks like I might have to try 4483?
"trainman3801"


As many have said you do not have to be absolutely 100% correct in what you are doing, anyone of the MK2 44's you have along with the 49, will work, & after all they did work together on similar workings with G wagons, & the CG's as well.

In the end you make the decision.  Now here's what I am going to do that is in essence totally wrong but it is my choice for the reasons I will share.

When I worked on the job, I hated the 59cl oil burners owing to the stench of them, couple that with the noise level when working hard & the 2 compositions of oil being fed, it took me around 40 minutes to develop a splitting headache.  While it was a lot easier than shovelling coal on them, I was glad to see them all go coal, as they were a great steaming engine, much better on the Enfield - Goulburn run than either the 36 or 38cl on goods trains.

I am modelling a mid 50's era, & have a DJH 59cl kit its built as a coal burner & is numbered as one of my favourites.  Totally wrong for my era, but thats what I am doing.  

Thus I do not see any reason why you could not have a couple of diesels that run on a train that are not exactly correct, because of the colours of them.

Whatever you decide to do, do it for your own enjoyment, but in the end how many modellers really would know that it was wrong anyway?
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned

I have no idea about the NOFF's & when they came into service, but knowing the 44's that were allocated to the west, & I am only assuming the wagons were for the concentrate train,
"a6et"


The NOFFs were a short-lived group of concentrate wagons introduced in 1987 or 88 and out of revenue service only five or so years later. By this time there were very few indian red 44s remaining.
"hanovale"


1992 through 1994 we were still overhauling and modififying them at Bathurst railway workshops mate (door removal and plating over) and i remember them still being on Cobar rakes in 1996 when i was reliving at Dubbo.
  trainman3801 Chief Commissioner

Location: Why do you want to know?!?!?!
Thanks for your help everyone! Very Happy

After looking at the TrainO ebay store, it appears that 44100 and 4425 have sold out. Looks like its 4483, just because there is more of them than 4480 Razz

42101, would you happen to know if there are/were any NOFF's running around as spoil wagons at the moment? If so, have they been re-coded or not?
  a6et Minister for Railways


I have no idea about the NOFF's & when they came into service, but knowing the 44's that were allocated to the west, & I am only assuming the wagons were for the concentrate train,
"a6et"


The NOFFs were a short-lived group of concentrate wagons introduced in 1987 or 88 and out of revenue service only five or so years later. By this time there were very few indian red 44s remaining.
"hanovale"


1992 through 1994 we were still overhauling and modififying them at Bathurst railway workshops mate (door removal and plating over) and i remember them still being on Cobar rakes in 1996 when i was reliving at Dubbo.
"42101"


Reliving at Dubbo.  Now thats a term I haven't heard for a long time & applicable to Dubbo. Shocked
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Thanks for your help everyone! Very Happy

After looking at the TrainO ebay store, it appears that 44100 and 4425 have sold out. Looks like its 4483, just because there is more of them than 4480 Razz

42101, would you happen to know if there are/were any NOFF's running around as spoil wagons at the moment? If so, have they been re-coded or not?
"trainman3801"


No i dont think so as they are only a shortie wagon i think they are mostly scrapped....someone else may know more as im out of the loop nowdays.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks for your help everyone! Very Happy

After looking at the TrainO ebay store, it appears that 44100 and 4425 have sold out. Looks like its 4483, just because there is more of them than 4480 Razz

42101, would you happen to know if there are/were any NOFF's running around as spoil wagons at the moment? If so, have they been re-coded or not?
"trainman3801"


No i dont think so as they are only a shortie wagon i think they are mostly scrapped....someone else may know more as im out of the loop nowdays.
"42101"


Would tend to agree, as the last time I saw anything that resembled them & the old G types were prior to the dismantling of the old Clyde Down yard as there were a string of spoil wagons at the Clyde end where the derelicts were scattered.

IIRC, those & a set I saw some years back in the extended end of the old Gosford Garratt siding, had the ends out of them with some sort of connection between them, probably for some sort of bobcat or similar to load/unload them.
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
A6 yeah mate i was Parkes based (Examiner ta) 2 weeks at home then 7 shifts over 2 weeks reducing time Dubbo.
  a6et Minister for Railways

A6 yeah mate i was Parkes based (Examiner ta) 2 weeks at home then 7 shifts over 2 weeks reducing time Dubbo.
"42101"


Remember sharing some of the stuff with you previously.

The whole area is very much a poor shadow of what it used to be.  Had a month at Parkes on loan in May 70 when the standard gauge opened, was glad to get back to the Creek though.

What sticks in my mind though was the terrible mice plaque that covered the whole area, right out to the Hill. Used to be an old guy did a bycicly tour of the outback each year, & the local Parkes rag had an article where for the first time ever he had to give it up as the mice would get into his tent & sleeping bag, & gnaw his feet, even the dog he took with him had problems.

Euabalong West & Ivnanhoe barracks had the bedrooms fumigated every other day. You would arrive there & a notice showing which rooms were ok & the ones with Mice written on the board.

First, & only time I ever saw the pirates mouse trap was at Euabalong West, where a 44gal drum half filled with water & a plank ran up to the top with a light spring loaded hinge on the end connected to a short plank, with bait on it.  Mice would run up the plank to get the bait, & when over the short bit their weight would cause the end to drop & the mouse went into the drum & drowned, the end would spring up for the next one.

The rotten thing was outside the meal room & when we got there it had been just reset up. Turned the little caravan Vulcan cookers on high & out came mice from the grilling pan under the elements. Scrub them up & cook a feed, & sit down & listen to the music.

Squeak - Splash - squeak - splash.  The squeak was the springed hinge droping & then the mouse hit, & the hinge squeaking as it came up.

What a luvely place.

Cheers
  foxdemon Train Controller

I'm not getting into the "it's your railway, do what you want with it" argument. The question was simply whether the trains would be realistic, not whether the OP would be entitled to run them..
"hanovale"


That's a pity Roger. You would be able to present an interesting position in such a debate. Have you thought about writing a book for those interested in historical modelling in modern era NSW railways?



It's getting into the rivet counting area but you would not have seen 44100 in tuscan and 4903 in candy together. 44100 was painted candy before the 49. 44100 was painted candy before the NOFFs were introduced.

I know little of the trailer rail trains but I have my doubts about the other train simply because it was most uncommon to see more than two or three RQIW on the same train.  There weren't very many of them. But until someone does a more numerous class of container skel (ie a 60 footer) then there's not a lot of choice when modelling a fairly shortlived train. It's not a horribly outlandish consist, just probably not right in detail.
"hanovale"


I'd use the distinction between "historically accurate" and "historically plausable". An example of historical accuracy would be modelling 15 minutes on one particular afternoon, etc. Possibly even down to the correct wagon numbers for the historical consist. This is very limited though and generally people move on from this. I guess it is a stage most of us go through at some point.

Plausability is what most of us operate on. Our operations are a model in themselves and it is most unlikely that chance would result in an exactly accurate historical reproduction. What we create is e a plausable situation. Give this, is the OP unnessacarily losing sleep over nothing?

Finally, there is nothing wrong with running an ecceletic collection. Those who put emphasis on socialising with people sharing a similar interest often like this approach. To each their own.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I'm not getting into the "it's your railway, do what you want with it" argument. The question was simply whether the trains would be realistic, not whether the OP would be entitled to run them..
"hanovale"


That's a pity Roger. You would be able to present an interesting position in such a debate. Have you thought about writing a book for those interested in historical modelling in modern era NSW railways?
"foxdemon"


While that is a great idea, & it is something that has been asked of me to do a similar thing based on the various years I was on the job & apply it to the operating side of things.  Trouble ended up with every one of those who wanted me to do it, each had a seperate agenda behind it, & that was in every case to actually justify their thoughts on how the 1:1 operated & how they were applying it on their layouts.

When the answer they got did not fit in with their beliefs, I just got abused. I am not saying that is what would be the case in every scenario but it would be typical.  OTOH there is a lot of scope available to the modeller with the realistic realm of railway operations to model.

It's getting into the rivet counting area but you would not have seen 44100 in tuscan and 4903 in candy together. 44100 was painted candy before the 49. 44100 was painted candy before the NOFFs were introduced.

I know little of the trailer rail trains but I have my doubts about the other train simply because it was most uncommon to see more than two or three RQIW on the same train.  There weren't very many of them. But until someone does a more numerous class of container skel (ie a 60 footer) then there's not a lot of choice when modelling a fairly shortlived train. It's not a horribly outlandish consist, just probably not right in detail.
"hanovale"


I'd use the distinction between "historically accurate" and "historically plausable". An example of historical accuracy would be modelling 15 minutes on one particular afternoon, etc. Possibly even down to the correct wagon numbers for the historical consist. This is very limited though and generally people move on from this. I guess it is a stage most of us go through at some point.

Plausability is what most of us operate on. Our operations are a model in themselves and it is most unlikely that chance would result in an exactly accurate historical reproduction. What we create is e a plausable situation. Give this, is the OP unnessacarily losing sleep over nothing?

Finally, there is nothing wrong with running an ecceletic collection. Those who put emphasis on socialising with people sharing a similar interest often like this approach. To each their own.
[/quote]

What you have mentioned is something that I have suggested on several occassions that could well be adopted with exhibition layouts in order to present a historical story of the railways.  Currently most people have a negative opinion of the railways for many & varied reasons, & mostly because of their commuting experiences, or similar.

By presenting a story line based on the history over a 5 year period, with a story line drop in sign with a short history & illustration of what is actually running on the layout presents a visual historical setting for the viewer.  It allows for each exhibition layout to concentrate on their own particular preference, without a lot of overlapping, the exhibitors can also answer any questions in regard to what they are doing, & even their reasons behind it.

In doing this its easy to show a transition period, that is historically accurate.

Prior to moving house, a modelling friend of mine suggested that once our then layouts were operational, we could have two types of operating sessions, one that is era specific of each of us, & then a hash up session every so often, where its anything goes. Both of us had different 2nd choice models & we could run different trains of whatever we wanted at that time.  US, Australian, European, British & even China Rail totally wrong but totally fun.
  LouMullen Station Staff

Location: out there
I use to think inside the box with 44's till I caught an eye full of independant.[/img]
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Well that's baffling.

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