Springvale Road, Springvale grade separation update

 
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
If you where to do the tunnel under the Shopping center also, then you could use what is the current road area for extra car parking.

Sponsored advertisement

  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I for one would support rail being put under the road. I agree that Springvale has some really rank traffic problems. However, I think that maintaining access to the side streets is really important for this area. There are other projects proceeding around Springvale that would benefit from having the main road basically stay as it is - like the conversion/re-building of the old Springvale High School site to accommodate the new Noble Park Special Developmental School which is due to open in another year.

Also, consider the minor fact that there is already a pedestrian underpass just south of the current railway. If enough foresight was used, potentially this underpass could be linked to the new station by a new tunnel.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The road will NOT go under, 3 main reasons why it won't:

1. The road provides access to more than just a Railway station. there are residential side streets, bussinesses and other things all currently serviced by the road. All the tracks provide access to is a Station near the crossing, something that already has to be changed to meet our new needs.

2. Putting the tracks underneath (in a tunnel or cutting) means you will be able to allow for future growth by leaving enough space for extra tracks to be added at a later date.

3. Simple aesthetics, Normal people don't want to stare at Railway infrastructure as it normally is, let alone when it's thrown 6 metres up in the sky with horrible black steel beams, when it is underground it still serves it's purpose well, without being an eyesore...

and that is why Railway under is preffered by the people who actually fund it.
  Bobman Locomotive Fireman

There has been discussion about Clayton Road, Clayton as well recently given all the events happening there that has caused major delays. One only being a few days ago.

You would hope that once Springvale is done, that they seriously consider doing Clayton Road, Clayton and Centre Road, Clayton at the same time.

I still can't get my head over the New Street and the other one in the country have been green-lit over the above as well as Murrumbeena Road.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Clayton Rd would be right up there in terms of needing to be done, and it would be a waste to not do Centre Rd at the same time. It makes me think though, would this be for future plans for extra tracks down of Oakleigh?
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
The fact that any of this is being considered shows how far we're slipping into idiocy: the reasons that they're bothering with this is people can't handle waiting about 4min for a train (yet will happily sit in a traffic jam for a lot longer at the Dandenong Rd / Police Rd / Springvale Rd intersection, or they're too stupid to know what damage a train can do to them.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Gotta agree with you on the idiocy front, just look at the amount of people/cars that have been struck by trains at level crossings lately, surely they can't all be intentional.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
While I agree with STB on grade separations due to idiocy, I cant agree in terms of the congestion that occurs even though the argument for grade separations is shot down when you consider busy intersections such as STB pointed out.

However, if the frequency of disruptions was high and the cost of the disruptions was more than the cost of grade separation (from possible compensation, loss of business, etc etc etc), wouldnt grade separations be worth it? (as rare as this case might be)
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
The other end of Springvale Rd (at Nunawading) proves my point.

The section of road next to the new station is still jammed solidly at peak hour, even allowing for EastLink traffic.

The rail line being put undergrounf did stuff-all for fixing the gridlock. It's the nearby intersection with Whitehorse Road / Maroondah Highway that causes the problems.

If we follow the logic of grade-separation for the sake of removing idiots getting hit by trains, we may as well advocate massive flyovers at all road intersections with clover-leaf slip lanes.
  Speed Minister for Railways

Another argument posed in favour of the grade-separation of Springvale Road, Nunawading is that it would improve the punctuality of the buses between Nunawading and Chelsea. The same could be said of separating Springvale Road, Springvale.

Is this true? Are buses spending less time in traffic now between Glen Waverley and Springvale? If not, does it mean that the road really needed more measures to give buses priority.

A similar consideration would also be applicable to Clayton Road.
  kapow Junior Train Controller

Gridlock wont be going away anytime soon no matter how many grade seperations happen. Purely looking at Nunawading from a safety point of view in seperating cars and trains makes the project worthwhile, same would go for Springvale Rd in Springvale
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
The rail line being put undergrounf did stuff-all for fixing the gridlock. It's the nearby intersection with Whitehorse Road / Maroondah Highway that causes the problems.

If we follow the logic of grade-separation for the sake of removing idiots getting hit by trains, we may as well advocate massive flyovers at all road intersections with clover-leaf slip lanes.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

Knowing the Springvale/Whitehorse intersection full well, how viable is a cloverleaf? Or at least a partial one? It's one I try to avoid on the rare occasion I find myself that way, it's one of the worst in Melbourne.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
We've covered this before:

Two reasons why delays at a level crossing are different to delays at a road intersection.

1) At road intersections, traffic from all directions is let through in small portions every few minutes at the worst. This keeps traffic moving, so the perceived waiting time is far less. At level crossings, even if the total time is given to trains is the same, it's in longer, fewer blocks and that causes the long lines of waiting, unmoving cars.

2) At level crossings, a large portion of the total delay time has an empty level crossing, whereas at a road intersection, so long as you are close, you can see that traffic is moving in the opposing direction and you're more willing to wait. The perceived waiting time is therefore much longer than the actual waiting time, and that causes the frustration.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
The rail line being put undergrounf did stuff-all for fixing the gridlock. It's the nearby intersection with Whitehorse Road / Maroondah Highway that causes the problems.

If we follow the logic of grade-separation for the sake of removing idiots getting hit by trains, we may as well advocate massive flyovers at all road intersections with clover-leaf slip lanes.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

Knowing the Springvale/Whitehorse intersection full well, how viable is a cloverleaf? Or at least a partial one? It's one I try to avoid on the rare occasion I find myself that way, it's one of the worst in Melbourne.
"alstom_888m"

You mean like the Heatherton Rd, Dandenong Rd, Eastlink road complex? I'm sure that could be done.
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
As I have said in past posts in here.....

....the grade seperation here in Narre Warren a few years ago, 'did not solve anything'.


One of the greatest blockages in Springvale is, the fact that it comes down to two lanes.  Rest of Springvale road is 'three lanes wide'.  But through this bottleneck, you are cut down to two lanes only.

So, I am extra supportive of them doing a tunnel to bypass the shopping center as well as the level crossing.


Can not help but think, the reason why the grade seperation happened at Westall, was to have Westall road work like a Springvale bypass.  It clearly has not worked as well as it was menat to.
  ashwin108 Station Staff

The main advantage for public transport from the Springvale Grade separation would be:

Buses can actually run on time. Many times the 902 and 813 are delayed significantly by the train crossing.

Station environment and intermodal transfer will be improved for pedestrians. Right now the majority of train passengers in the evening peak have to cross the narrow pedestrian crossing (usually waiting for the next train to pass as well), which takes some time, and then have to cross Lightwoood road to get to the main bus stops.
Many times I'm on the train, see the bus waiting at the crossing, and by the time i get off the train and cross the tracks, the bus has gotten to the bus stop and left.
Relocating the bus stops outside the new train station like Nunawading will improve the transfer time down from 4-5 minutes to less than a minute.

Springvale needs a better station: It is used by lots of people and has little to no shelter, small platform exits, etc. It's definately more deserving of proper facilties than Westall, which was a complete overkill by the Labor Government.
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
God damn, there's some more stupid coming out.

Another argument posed in favour of the grade-separation of Springvale Road, Nunawading is that it would improve the punctuality of the buses between Nunawading and Chelsea. The same could be said of separating Springvale Road, Springvale.
"Speed"

Ummm... no, it really didn't.  I've seen Nunawading operate now, and the traffic still piles up to halfway to Springfield and Canterbury Rds.

Need to catch any other bus aside from the 902 northbound?  You've got a much longer walk than when the previous station was there.  The 286 and 735 buses depart from where the old station was.

The only good thing that came of it was there's decent staff amenities built there, and it looks nice.

Purely looking at Nunawading from a safety point of view in seperating cars and trains makes the project worthwhile, same would go for Springvale Rd in Springvale
"kapow"
Another piece of utter bollockry.  How many collisions occur at the intersection betweeen cars and trains?

How many collisions occur at the nearby intersections?

Right.  Safety, my asre.

At road intersections, traffic from all directions is let through in small portions every few minutes at the worst. This keeps traffic moving, so the perceived waiting time is far less. At level crossings, even if the total time is given to trains is the same, it's in longer, fewer blocks and that causes the long lines of waiting, unmoving cars.
"Mini-MJJA"
You don't drive, do you?  

Yet again, you really do demonstrate that you have no idea about the real world and how it works.

I suggest you go to Punt Rd and Hoddle St in peak hour.  Not a level crossing to be seen.  Even better, go to Chandler Hwy/Eastern Freeway and look towards Hoddle St exit in peak hour.  Or Flinders St and St. Kilda Rds in evening peak.

At level crossings, a large portion of the total delay time has an empty level crossing, whereas at a road intersection, so long as you are close, you can see that traffic is moving in the opposing direction and you're more willing to wait. The perceived waiting time is therefore much longer than the actual waiting time, and that causes the frustration.
"Steamtostay"




Do you actually get high before coming up with some of this?

Have you been in a car along the West Gate Freeway when traffic just isn't moving in one direction - and moving in the other?  It's more berluddy annoying...

As for ashwin108's dribbling, Vegeta sums it up quite well. (He's the one with the pointy hair).



Station environment and intermodal transfer will be improved for pedestrians. Right now the majority of train passengers in the evening peak have to cross the narrow pedestrian crossing (usually waiting for the next train to pass as well), which takes some time, and then have to cross Lightwoood road to get to the main bus stops.
"ashwin108"


See my earlier point about Nunawading.  Maybe also go to Box Hill, or Ringwood, or any one of a number of places where the bus stops aren't directly next to the station.

I daresay there will be more derp on display - it is Railpage, after all.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
So, I am extra supportive of them doing a tunnel to bypass the shopping center as well as the level crossing.
"tranzitjim"


The biggest draw back on this Idea Is the cost !

The objective Is to eliminate the level crossing, the danger and congestion It causes, not to bypass Springvale CBD (that has already been done)
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
God damn, there's some more stupid coming out.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

Well, we've got to keep you entertained somehow Laughing

Need to catch any other bus aside from the 902 northbound?  You've got a much longer walk than when the previous station was there.  The [273] and 735 buses depart from where the old station was.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

And that's the fault of not finishing the job. Really, the two routes could be merged. They both terminate at Nunawading, and now that Ventura owns National Bus, hopefully the two routes will be merged. Then both will use the 902 stops, rather than the old stops.

The only good thing that came of it was there's decent staff amenities built there, and it looks nice.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

Well, the pedestrian underpass is also a nice idea.

At road intersections, traffic from all directions is let through in small portions every few minutes at the worst. This keeps traffic moving, so the perceived waiting time is far less. At level crossings, even if the total time given to trains is the same, it's in longer, fewer blocks and that causes the long lines of waiting, unmoving cars.
"Mini-Midga"

I suggest you go to Punt Rd and Hoddle St in peak hour. Not a level crossing to be seen. Even better, go to Chandler Hwy/Eastern Freeway and look towards Hoddle St exit in peak hour. Or Flinders St and St. Kilda Rds in evening peak.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

Will have to think about that one.

My instinct is that it's the mass of traffic in all directions causing the congestion, so that the row of waiting cars grows faster than they're being let through each intersection.

At level crossings, a large portion of the total delay time has an empty level crossing, whereas at a road intersection, so long as you are close, you can see that traffic is moving in the opposing direction and you're more willing to wait. The perceived waiting time is therefore much longer than the actual waiting time, and that causes the frustration.
"Mini-Midga"

Have you been in a car along the West Gate Freeway when traffic just isn't moving in one direction - and moving in the other? It's more berluddy annoying...
"Sir Thomas Bent"

Right, it's frustrating because you can't see the cause of the delay. The same as waiting a kilometre away from a level crossing, just on a larger scale. And the traffic in the opposite direction adds to the effect.

I'll restate: people are more willing to wait if they can see the cause of the delay (and by extension, assume that it won't last too long). Whether you're waiting at a seemingly empty level crossing, or behind a long line of stationary cars, the frustration largely comes from not seeing the end of the delay.

I'm sure I could express that better, but I hope it's understandable?

Station environment and intermodal transfer will be improved for pedestrians. Right now the majority of train passengers in the evening peak have to cross the narrow pedestrian crossing (usually waiting for the next train to pass as well), which takes some time, and then have to cross Lightwoood road to get to the main bus stops.
"ashwin108"

See my earlier point about Nunawading.  Maybe also go to Box Hill, or Ringwood, or any one of a number of places where the bus stops aren't directly next to the station.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

At Springvale, the most likely outcome is that the platforms will remain in their current area, rather than moving to the other side of the road as happened at Nunawading. Of the seven bus routes that run through Springvale, the 813, 814, 902 and 980 will benefit from a Nunawading-esque bus stop in each direction (so long as the pedestrian underpass is provided). That leaves the 885, terminating on the north side, the 705 (peak only) terminating on the south side, and the 811 which approaches and departs on the south side.

Looking at the map, it might be best to link the 855 with half of the 811 on the north/south axis, and have the other half of the 811 terminate at Springvale station. If the 705 can be merged (taking into account the different operators), then the second half of the 811 can join with the 705 when the latter runs.

In any case, the 811-705 route(s) would have to terminate on Lightwood Avenue, and they'd be somewhat displaced from the station. But there isn't much that can be done about that. They certainly don't have to be as far from Springvale Road as the 273/735 are at Nunawading.
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Route #813 was once split into two routes at Springvale, and they did not get held up by the train whatsoever.

Perhaps they should be split up again?
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
While Ventura has taken over NationalBus, they still don't run on either routes unless a bus has been transferred to another depot, which does not happen often at all (although I have seen an older Volgren bodied Ventura run on the 270 recently). So that ancient, slow Mk2 SL200 and National branded blue buses will always be on the 273 and the like while the 735 etc. will always get the newer Ventura buses (and none of these will have National on the side). So far, I am yet to see a 'National' bus run on an original Ventura route.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
I don't know much about the bus network and how it operates, but I've been told that because of the way the existing contracts are written, Ventura and National Bus have to be treated as separate entities until the contracts expire.

Something to do with the routes and timetables being treated separately by the DoT.

So nothing's going to change until (IIRC) 2016.
  red_hood Locomotive Driver

Location: Banned

And that's the fault of not finishing the job. Really, the two routes could be merged. They both terminate at Nunawading, and now that Ventura owns National Bus, hopefully the two routes will be merged. Then both will use the 902 stops, rather than the old stops.
"SteamtoStay"

I don't think you'll ever see 273 and 735 mergered.
As reminber National Bus is up for tender once its contract finishes in 2012.
So I don't think Ventura would bother trying to merge it into one, then have spilt into 2 routes again if they lose the contact for National bus.
  Aussie Steve Deputy Commissioner

Are there any plans released for public viewing?
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
So I don't think Ventura would bother trying to merge it into one, then have spilt into 2 routes again if they lose the contact for National bus.
"red_hood"

I was under the impression that Ventura/Grendas/etc just run the routes decided by the Department of Transport; they have no say in where the routes go or their timetables.

So the decision to merge or otherwise can only be made by the DoT.

Are there any plans released for public viewing?
"Aussie Steve"

No, but if you look at the first page I've covered the four alternatives; sink the road with adjustment to the local streets, or put the railway in a cutting either on current, north, or south of existing alignment.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.