Seaford Line work

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mynameismike Deputy Commissioner

Location: /dev/adelaide/magill
Tony et al

The proposed timetables as described are wishful thinking at best.

Do the graph!

The semi express takes 35 minutes from Seaford, the stops all to Woodlands Park takes 44 minutes; allowing 2 minutes headway at either end equates to 11 minutes between trains if a stops all to WP is interleaved between the semi expresses.

The aproximate 7.5 minute frequency may work if trains run express to/from Brighton then stop all to/from Noarlunga Centre and the Stoppers turn back at Noarlunga Centre.

Mathematically the difference in departure times of trains cannot be less than the journey time difference between the fastest and slowest train plus two times headway. This can be improved if one train can overtake another but on double track requires one train to run bang road.

Regards
Ian
- steam4ian


I can't see how they can make those times at all, let alone maintain that frequency.  Currently an express from Norlunga to Adelaide takes 32 minutes.   I cant see how a semi express can travel an extra 6km's stop several more times and only add three minutes for the trip.

Furthermore, an all-stops to woodlands park from NC would take 44 minutes.  Perhaps with sparks the improved acceleration would help and trim of some of the time on an all stops, but I can't see how it would work with the semi-express.
 
RTT_Rules Minister for Railways

Location: Dubai UAE
A typical spark maxs out at 1.05 to 1.1 ms-2 acceleration from what I have read and this is govened by the prevention of people being thrown to last carriage. How does this compare to DMU's?

Also top end speed, current DMU's are limited to 90km/hr? Is the track work going to allow higher top end speeds and potentially higher speed boards all round?

Regards
Shane
 
David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: With Dee Dee McCall
You may find also that dwell times at platforms are going to be a lot shorter as well. Interstate ( Eastern States) it is a case of the quick or the dead almost they don't stand at platforms for long over there.
 
KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
You may find also that dwell times at platforms are going to be a lot shorter as well. Interstate ( Eastern States) it is a case of the quick or the dead almost they don't stand at platforms for long over there.
- David Peters


Really  Confused .  Come to Sydney.  We have well over one minute needed at city stations in the peaks, but (just in case) the timetable allows anything up to five minutes 'catch up' spread over three stations on the North Sydney-Chatswood-Epping line, as just one example.

The new sparks in Sydney can manage 1m per sec squared, but typical metros are about 1.3.  People don't fall over; although magnetic track brakes on some light rail cars can do it (from personal experience!)
 
muzzamo Beginner

Are you guys considering the impact on boarding times of the new ticketing system?

It would be naive to think that contactless ticketing, with four readers at each set of doors (and maybe readers on the platforms at major stations - who knows?) won't speed things up.
 
weeny25 Beginner

As a Melburnian it seems that there are way too many train stations on the Seaford line. Marino station AND Marino rocks, that's an extra station for another 200 people who live nearby. Same goes for the many mid-block train stations closer to the city. It's really wierd seeing very little feeder bus services to any stations, e.g Lonsdale, Noarlunga, Christie Downs. Almost all of them go to the city, but I'm sure that a train with fewer stops would be faster than a bus in peak hour?

Hopefully Adelaide will move towards Perth's model of transport.
Another peculiar thing I noticed was how there was no connectivity at all between Goodwood station and the tram line, which is very odd. It still baffles me as to why this is happening in 2011...
 
Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
Have they got any spans in place yet?
 
wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
I visited Adelaide recently, some photos of mine from December 04:
http://railgallery.wongm.com/seaford-extension

Aerial view of the cutting from Noarlunga Centre, looking south-west


Onkaparinga River bridge


Seaford and Seaford Meadows stations


Cutting at Goldsmith Drive, looking back to Noarlunga Centre


Goldsmith Drive looking down the line to Old Honeypot Road and the river bridge


Bridge span in place over Old Honeypot Road


Crane at the north abutment of the Onkaparinga River bridge


Looking south over the Onkaparinga River bridge piers


Launching truss for the Onkaparinga River bridge - 'Bluey Bluey Big Nose'


Looking north from Seaford Road over the side of Seaford Meadows station


Looking north along the cutting from Lynton Road


Concrete retaining walls taking shape at the Seaford station site
 
David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: With Dee Dee McCall
As a Melburnian it seems that there are way too many train stations on the Seaford line. Marino station AND Marino rocks, that's an extra station for another 200 people who live nearby. Same goes for the many mid-block train stations closer to the city. It's really wierd seeing very little feeder bus services to any stations, e.g Lonsdale, Noarlunga, Christie Downs. Almost all of them go to the city, but I'm sure that a train with fewer stops would be faster than a bus in peak hour?

Hopefully Adelaide will move towards Perth's model of transport.
Another peculiar thing I noticed was how there was no connectivity at all between Goodwood station and the tram line, which is very odd. It still baffles me as to why this is happening in 2011...
- weeny25


This is still a left over from the days of the then MTT and SAR two separate divisions of the same State Government. They were always trying to out do one another and it shows in bus routes and train lines in most places still in Adelaide, where you have a bus route less than 300 metres at times from a railway line and both go to the same place. Having the buses feed the trains would be an excellent idea here in a lot of places, a lot better than what there is now as there are several interchange places if they can be called that.
 
steam4ian Chief Commissioner

G'day Weener25

Some stations might appear on paper anacronistic but when you are on the ground you will see they are well used. Emerson and Clarence Park are cases in point. Both stations, although close, are connected to bus routes and well used. There is no attempt at coordinating the buses, they just happen to run past.

Regarding connecting buses. They worked for a while but then got stuffed up by the buses being semi privatised and the routes getting fiddled with.
One used to be able to get from Sheidow Park via Brighton to Adelaide in 40 minutes using bus (680) and train. The latest system goes via Hallett Cove Beach and takes 55 mins or all bus via Reynella Interchange and takes 65 mins.

I agree regarding the tram/train interface, it has not got any better since I used to take both via Goodwood when going to school.

Regards
Ian
 
train2000 Junior Train Controller



Goldsmith Drive looking down the line to Old Honeypot Road and the river bridge


- wongm


That surface looks very smooth they did a good job.  Smile
 
mclaren2007 Chief Train Controller

Location: recharging my myki
They're moving quickly now Smile

When is the line scheduled to be open for driver training/testing
 
train2000 Junior Train Controller

They're moving quickly now Smile

When is the line scheduled to be open for driver training/testing
- mclaren2007


About 2013.
 
Halo Chief Train Controller

My two bob worth from Norlunga platfrom


 
David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: With Dee Dee McCall
It just does not look like Noarlunga Central with the track bed disappearing under a bridge further down. But progress seem's to be going along quite swiftly by the looks. Thanks for the photo's all.
 
85trainfan Train Controller

Location: If only I Knew, that would make 2 of us :)
Some observations of works today.
Workers were spraying concrete on the cutting walls between Noarlunga Centre and the Goldsmith Drive bridge. While a Excavator was smoothing  the cutting walls between Goldsmith Dve and the Old Honeypot Rd bridge.
The Northern Span has now reached the 1stt Pier over the Estauray. The southern Span has almost reached the 3rd Pier, with workers today tension the first pier north of the river.
A small viewing platform has also been built, facing the bridge on the Western side, accessible from jared rd and the access rd to the onkapringa river conservation park carpark.
Sleepers and rails have been laid in 2 places now, one just after the depot entrance near the bridge and the other along side the depot at seaford meadows (inside the cutting adjacent Saoubiers?? Rd).
Seaford Rd bridge has the Northern screen up and the road base is being prepared for the road to be slewed to the new bridge.
At seaford station, concrete workers were spraying the Western abutment walls under the Lynton Tce bridge, while anther crew was excavating more soil in the new station area.

Onkaparinga Valley Bridge, Southern Span.


Track laid near the New Seaford Depot entrance.


Track laid past the new Depot, with new workshop and admin facilities taking shape in the background.
 
KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
As a Melburnian it seems that there are way too many train stations on the Seaford line...
Hopefully Adelaide will move towards Perth's model of transport...
- weeny25

Station location is a product of history.  Once a station is in place it is not easy to remove, although it did happen with South Brighton.  I remember a bus route planner complaining how hard it was to move a bus stop!
If you look at Perth's older lines (i.e. other than the newer North and South lines) you will find the same close spacing.
 
SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
As a Melburnian it seems that there are way too many train stations on the Seaford line......
- weeny25


Melbourne's spacing is far too great in very many instances. For example, one of the biggest shopping centres in the country is half way between Highett and Cheltenham stations, and has no station, so the car inevitably reigns supreme. I would need a car to access the nearest stations should I live anywhere near the centre of such a gap, while trains passed right past my house carrying others who choose, for whatever reason, to live an unconscionable distance from the city.

Elderly people in particular need to be within a very few hundred metres of public transport stops, but anyone of any age who pays the premium prices or inflated rates and taxes demanded for property in 170 year old suburbs has a right to feel miffed when he is dismissed as having no rights to use the trains his taxes paid for when the new suburbs were empty paddocks.

I use both windswept Oaklands and the nearer Warradale, which is in danger from 'planners' who think that shortening the journey time of half-empty trains from distant suburbs by a few minutes is more important than serving the very rapid increase in population that is occurring around it. Every third house in my two streets has been bulldozed and replaced by two.

Strange as it may seem, the current government is encouraging this, as it makes for more economical use of resources of all kinds. They call it 'urban consolidation', and 'transport oriented' developments are the chosen policy mechanisms to achieve it. Warradale was erected to meet a demand. It wasn't there from the inception of the line.

If we are not to have that transport, what is the use of destroying the ambiance of our pleasant traditional suburbs?
 
rhino Chief Commissioner

Location: Oakbonk SA


Onkaparinga River bridge

- wongm


Looking at the photo above, I can't help but wonder why they are building that long viaduct/bridge, instead of benching into the north bank of the river and building a much shorter bridge? I suppose there is a good reason?
 
BIG-BEAR Junior Train Controller



Onkaparinga River bridge

- wongm


Looking at the photo above, I can't help but wonder why they are building that long viaduct/bridge, instead of benching into the north bank of the river and building a much shorter bridge? I suppose there is a good reason?
- rhino


It Would have to do with furture planing by goverments many years ago that have left that land vacant . As now there is house's to the left and right and nowhere else for the line to go . Noarlunga centre station would be under 1 km to the river so to re aline the train line to cross the river some where else would be a costly nightmare .

Also there was a ad in the local paper saying that the seaford road will be closed this weekend . It looks like the old bridge for road traffic over the old train line is going to be ripped up this weekend . This is also where the new line is going .

There is a new bridge in place next to the old one . But I dont think that it would be used long term for road traffic as it is not a straight line for road traffic . If it was no more 60 km speed limit road it would be 20 km near the bridge
 
fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler


Onkaparinga River bridge

- wongm


Looking at the photo above, I can't help but wonder why they are building that long viaduct/bridge, instead of benching into the north bank of the river and building a much shorter bridge? I suppose there is a good reason?
- rhino


Its a River Delta (google that term), which means its a huge wide muddy/sandy area. No matter which way you go its the same distance you need to bridge to avoid flooding/unstable ground.

Don't be fooled by the water channel, its can shift at will anywhere within the low lying valley. What you think is dirt is simply mud and sand the river has deposited as it changes course.

Once every 10 years or so the river backs up several kms and floods parts of Old Noarlunga. The bridge is a lot closer to the sea than that old township.
 
sas85 Chief Commissioner

Location: V1

There is a new bridge in place next to the old one . But I dont think that it would be used long term for road traffic as it is not a straight line for road traffic . If it was no more 60 km speed limit road it would be 20 km near the bridge
- BIG-BEAR


The new bridge will be the permanant structure crossing the Seaford line, the road will be slewed and traffic will 'drift' off the straight course, over the bridge and back to the original road. The road reserve is wide enough to accomodate the curve to the bridge and back without reducing speed below 60kp/h

This set up has been used before, look at aerial photographs of Grad Junction Road and Regency Road, these overpasses are not straight and involve curvature on the approach to, or over the bridge.
 
rhino Chief Commissioner

Location: Oakbonk SA


Onkaparinga River bridge

- wongm


Looking at the photo above, I can't help but wonder why they are building that long viaduct/bridge, instead of benching into the north bank of the river and building a much shorter bridge? I suppose there is a good reason?
- rhino


Sorry, instead of "North Bank" perhaps I should have said "East Bank". If the line had swung slightly to the east (towards the hills) and been benched into the high ground there (at the same level as the bridge is being built, so a s not to get flooded), when it reached a point near the right hand side of that photo above, it could have crossed the river on a much shorter bridge (without so many piers having to be sunk into mud), and re-joined the alignment south of the river, utilising vacant land that is visible in the photo, at a similar elevation to what it is going to do anyway. I'm sure there is a good reason why they chose to build a bridge instead, I just haven't heard it yet.
 
rhino Chief Commissioner

Location: Oakbonk SA
Okay I'm going to answer my own question.

Having just looked at a topographic map of the location, I have realised that what looks like high ground to the right of the river in that photo, is, in fact, low ground with vegetation cover, and still subject to occasional innundation.
 
Pressman The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Okay I'm going to answer my own question.

Having just looked at a topographic map of the location, I have realised that what looks like high ground to the right of the river in that photo, is, in fact, low ground with vegetation cover, and still subject to occasional innundation.
- rhino


There is also a lot of new housing along the banks on the east side of River Road. One of the reasons that route wasn't considered.
Check out "River Road Port Noarlunga" on Nearmap. (Google maps are too old to show the latest housing)
 

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