Is Cityrail pleased with the Waratah Train and will they order more?

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ctang Station Master

Overall is Cityrail happy with the performance of the Waratah train so far?  I have read that there is an option to order 20 additional sets.  Do you think they will exercise that option or not?  I hope they do.

Cam
 
R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
Ok, they order another 20 sets...with who building them?
 
boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Should've asked in this thread http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11355248-s1850.htm

moderators@railpage.com.auThread LOCKED!
 
R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
Should've asked in this thread http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11355248-s1850.htm moderators@railpage.com.auThread LOCKED!
- boxythingy


This is a perfectly valid discussion for this thread. It wouldnt really fit in the other thread. 
 
boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Overall is Cityrail happy with the performance of the Waratah train so far?  I have read that there is an option to order 20 additional sets.  Do you think they will exercise that option or not?  I hope they do.

Cam
- ctang


Seeing that they are asking about the (current) performance of the Waratah trains and asking for any news on the additional sets, I don't see how it cannot be asked in the Waratah Updates thread.
 
R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
Overall is Cityrail happy with the performance of the Waratah train so far?  I have read that there is an option to order 20 additional sets.  Do you think they will exercise that option or not?  I hope they do.

Cam
- ctang
Seeing that they are asking about the (current) performance of the Waratah trains and asking for any news on the additional sets, I don't see how it cannot be asked in the Waratah Updates thread.
- boxythingy


The waratah UPDATES Thread is for news, Yes, However this is a very interesting seperate discussion. besides, the updates thread is bound to get sidetracked with A9's PC in a few weeks
 
 
newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting promoted to Sergeant
Ok, they order another 20 sets...with who building them?
- R44


The same company presumably. 
 
Kamz Assistant Commissioner

Is 20 enough to replace all K & C sets?
 
labhenryboy Chief Train Controller

Location: Mortdale via Syndal
Ok, they order another 20 sets...with who building them?
- R44


The same company presumably. 
- newington


With the consortium building the current ones essentially broke I would think it unlikely that the government would go back to them for more.
 
R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
Is 20 enough to replace all K & C sets?
- Kamz


And why would you want to do that. The C Sets are essentially a year or 2 younger than the Tangaras. They have aircon, so I dont see a problem 
 
boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Is 20 enough to replace all K & C sets?
- Kamz


And why would you want to do that. The C Sets are essentially a year or 2 younger than the Tangaras. They have aircon, so I dont see a problem 
- R44


That's right and they still have a chance to keep them from being abused. They are decent trains except for the C-Set irreversible seating.
 
littleal9 Junior Train Controller

Location: bellambi
Is 20 enough to replace all K & C sets?
- Kamz


And why would you want to do that. The C Sets are essentially a year or 2 younger than the Tangaras. They have aircon, so I dont see a problem 
- R44


I thought C sets were the test bed for Chopper control prior to being used in Tangaras and V sets. that would make them older.

C Sets built 1986-87   Tangaras  1988-94
 
A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
Watch c set commissioning on YouTube they were the test for T sets also go to the next page of Sydney forum there is a post from me with a video of the tangaras design
 
PDCL Chief Train Controller

Is 20 enough to replace all K & C sets?
- Kamz


Aside from the why would you argument, no.  There are 20 x 8-car K-sets (or 40 actual 4 car sets).  So the option on the Waratah's could replace them, however there are also 7 x 8-car C-sets (14 individual 4-car sets).  So I suppose the option on the contract is to either replace the K's which will all be at least 30 years old in 2015, or, to increase network capacity, the C's are hanging around for a while yet.

http://www.cityrail.info/about/fleet/ 
 
Raichase Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
With the consortium building the current ones essentially broke I would think it unlikely that the government would go back to them for more.
- labhenryboy


The company building the Waratah trains is not broke - that company is Downer EDI. The company that went broke was Reliance Rail, which was a seperate entity to Downer EDI, despite EDI holding a large stake in the company. This presumably allowed the parent company to wash their hands of it when it went bust, forcing the State Government to step in and bail them out.

From the Reliance Rail website:

Reliance Rail is owned by the following companies:
Downer EDI Limited (49%) — one of Australasia's largest outsourcing engineering services companies providing comprehensive engineering and infrastructure management services to the public and private transport, energy, communications and resources sectors.

Interests managed by AMP Capital Investors (25.5%) — one of Australia and New Zealand’s leading specialist investment managers and one of the longest standing participants in Australian infrastructure, with involvement in the asset class since 1988.

Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc (12.75%) — RBS is a market leader in developing and financing of social infrastructure in Australia

International Public Partnerships Limited (12.75%)  — a U.K. listed PPP/PFI infrastructure fund managed by Amber Infrastructure Limited, a world leading developer and manager of social infrastructure assets.
- A user



As for the experts here saying there is "nothing wrong with the C-Sets", basing a decision to retire a train solely on it's age and air-conditioning is poor business sense indeed. Mechanically, the S-Sets are reliable trains (when maintained well), and are reasonably simple to fix in service, depending on the fault. The Chopper sets have a number of differences from a K-Set that make them prone to failure, and they are far less reliable than the older sets. No point in having an air-conditioned train if it spits the dummy and becomes a complete failure in a section...  Rolling Eyes
 
djf01 Chief Commissioner


From the Reliance Rail website:

Reliance Rail is owned by the following companies:
Downer EDI Limited (49%) — one of Australasia's largest outsourcing engineering services companies providing comprehensive engineering and infrastructure management services to the public and private transport, energy, communications and resources sectors.

Interests managed by AMP Capital Investors (25.5%) — one of Australia and New Zealand’s leading specialist investment managers and one of the longest standing participants in Australian infrastructure, with involvement in the asset class since 1988.

Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc (12.75%) — RBS is a market leader in developing and financing of social infrastructure in Australia

International Public Partnerships Limited (12.75%)  — a U.K. listed PPP/PFI infrastructure fund managed by Amber Infrastructure Limited, a world leading developer and manager of social infrastructure assets.
- A user


AIUI, The State Government has assumed 100% equity in Reliance Rail.  Even before the GCF, Reliance Rail was highly geared, so it didn't take much in terms of cost overruns to wipe out the equity in the project.  Even before any cost overruns, Reliance Rail was in trouble as the debt financiers wanted this unwound in some way to continue to roll over the debt.

Personally, (so long as the Reliance Rail structure remains in place and the debt financiers are committed) I expect increasing the order would be enough to make Reliance solvent - or at least give it positive equity value again.  In that case, the government could subsequently sell it's equity stake back to the private sector - perhaps the original owners, perhaps the holders of the debt, perhaps some other suckers.  It *should* be possible to get these extra new trains for effectively nothing, which is the job Greiner was brought in for, not to get rail projects cancelled.


- Raichase
 
jaseee Chief Train Controller

The initial order of Waratah's is for 626 carriages right? Which is more than how many S, L and R sets CityRail has? Therefore there will already be extra trains for extra capacity already so I don't see why the 20 extra order couldn't replace some of the K-sets.
 
A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
Yeah it could replace the k sets but I think if they do cityrail will definatley keep them as spare trains and for major events
 
A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
Yeah it could replace the k sets but I think if they do cityrail will definatley keep them as spare trains and for major events
 
Raichase Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I don't know why all of the armchair experts are so quick to replace the K-Sets?
 
RTT_Rules Minister for Railways

Location: Dubai UAE

From the Reliance Rail website:

Reliance Rail is owned by the following companies:
Downer EDI Limited (49%) — one of Australasia's largest outsourcing engineering services companies providing comprehensive engineering and infrastructure management services to the public and private transport, energy, communications and resources sectors.

Interests managed by AMP Capital Investors (25.5%) — one of Australia and New Zealand’s leading specialist investment managers and one of the longest standing participants in Australian infrastructure, with involvement in the asset class since 1988.

Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc (12.75%) — RBS is a market leader in developing and financing of social infrastructure in Australia

International Public Partnerships Limited (12.75%)  — a U.K. listed PPP/PFI infrastructure fund managed by Amber Infrastructure Limited, a world leading developer and manager of social infrastructure assets.
- A user


AIUI, The State Government has assumed 100% equity in Reliance Rail.  Even before the GCF, Reliance Rail was highly geared, so it didn't take much in terms of cost overruns to wipe out the equity in the project.  Even before any cost overruns, Reliance Rail was in trouble as the debt financiers wanted this unwound in some way to continue to roll over the debt.

Personally, (so long as the Reliance Rail structure remains in place and the debt financiers are committed) I expect increasing the order would be enough to make Reliance solvent - or at least give it positive equity value again.  In that case, the government could subsequently sell it's equity stake back to the private sector - perhaps the original owners, perhaps the holders of the debt, perhaps some other suckers.  It *should* be possible to get these extra new trains for effectively nothing, which is the job Greiner was brought in for, not to get rail projects cancelled.

- Raichase


This is the time for govt to step up and work with EDI for a 10 year supply contract, local assembly based using the A set drawings allowing for minor variation in design making what ever number of trains is required annually in 2-3 years time to replace and expand existing fleet. Plant will produce both DD SMU and DD IMU and if required SD DMU's. Then with 3 years to go on 10 year contract govt goes out for tender for next generation of trains and Engineering company to design and build for the following 10 years. Staff are employed by Eng company.  

No more batch one off contract models all using different parts.
- djf01
 
Ben_Daui Deputy Commissioner


As for the experts here saying there is "nothing wrong with the C-Sets"
- Raichase

Well if Railcorp decide to swap the seating over to Directional seating as the R/Sets will be disposed of so there will be more then enough seats to allow all C-Sets to have Directional seating.
 
NoDont Station Master

I think it's a fair assumption that they're going to continue ordering - after all, Waratah training still seems to be going full pelt out at Petersham.

Also, my understanding of Reliance's financial position is that it will come good once they start rolling sets out at pace; when RailCorp starts forking out the big bucks for each set used every day.
They're costing so much that train crew have been told to not let any problems out of AMF when they're bringing Waratahs into service because so much money is being handed over.
 
jaseee Chief Train Controller

FYI, I have nothing against the K-sets. In fact, I prefer a K-set over a T-set any day due to the fact that the T-set seats seem too small (I always seem to get squashed in those seats even though I take up less than half the seat). Not to mention they are not reversable.
 
VSet2012 Station Master

Is 20 enough to replace all K & C sets?
- Kamz


And why would you want to do that. The C Sets are essentially a year or 2 younger than the Tangaras. They have aircon, so I dont see a problem 
- R44


I thought C sets were the test bed for Chopper control prior to being used in Tangaras and V sets. that would make them older.

C Sets built 1986-87   Tangaras  1988-94
- littleal9


No, t sets are younger mate, C sets were only made because T sets were delayed and so they could test out the chopper mechanism.
 

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