Geelong V/Line struggling

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Revenue Chief Commissioner

Regardless of whether electrification occurs, services to/from Geelong won't go through the loop. It won't be too long before it won't be possible to get all services from Upfield, Craigieburn and Sunbury through the loop. Plus the loop is limited to six carriages - whereas it is likely that Geelong will eventually go consistently longer (regardless of electrification or not).

Electrification is an equation. Does the savings made from purchasing electrified rolling stock (which is much cheaper than DMU) equal the cost of electification. Sooner or later, electrification will happen - the only question is when.  Of course, if battery technology improves, you might not need wires the whole way.  Smile

Imagine it - train goes under wires to the edge of the metro network, and uses batteries to get to Geelong where it goes back onto wires to recharge. Smile  Not science fiction - Japanese test train is doing it at the moment from memory.

RRL means the track capacity issue to Geelong goes away - well until you hit four trains per hour from Geelong which won't happen for a while (especially if that's four 9-carriage trains).

 
RATLSNAKE Chief Train Controller

lol To be fair this nation is 100 years behind the type of infrastructure that Japan has.

Pipe-dream for this nation during our lifetime.

 
xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong

lol To be fair this nation is 100 years behind the type of infrastructure that Japan has. Pipe-dream for this nation during our lifetime.

- RATLSNAKE


There is no comparison between Japan and Australia.
Australia simply does not have the population nor the population densities that Japan has to justify the type of railways that Japan has.

For your reference:
Japan population: 126,450,000 (as at July 2011)

Area of Japan: 377,835km² (land mass)

Australia population: 22,620,000 (as at June 2011)

Area of Australia: 7,659,861km² (land mass)

 
don_dunstan Chief Commissioner

Location: Melbourne



For your reference:
Japan population: 126,450,000 (as at July 2011)

Area of Japan: 377,835km² (land mass)

Australia population: 22,620,000 (as at June 2011)

Area of Australia: 7,659,861km² (land mass)

- xxxxlbear



To be fair though, most of the land mass is hardly occupied at all and the major centres are where 80 percent of the population lives.

There's a lot of good transport links between Melbourne and regional centres - probably the best interurban service in Australia really.  If we want to keep decentralising then we have to look at improving them even more... unlikely that anything will happen until revenues pick up again (maybe 10 or 20 years).  It might not feel like it yet but we are actually in a recession; if anything we can expect big cuts to services in the pipeline, not increases in services.

 
Carnot Deputy Commissioner


There's a lot of good transport links between Melbourne and regional centres - probably the best interurban service in Australia really.  If we want to keep decentralising then we have to look at improving them even more... unlikely that anything will happen until revenues pick up again (maybe 10 or 20 years).  It might not feel like it yet but we are actually in a recession; if anything we can expect big cuts to services in the pipeline, not increases in services.

- don_dunstan



Yes.  When compared with Toowoomba (a couple of trains per week), and Tasmania (no passenger trains at all).  But if you look at other cities similarly situated and populated such as Woolongong, NSW Central Coast, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, and Mandurah - all these have Electric train services.  Although the Gold Coast still has much improvement required wrt access to the whole coast.

If anything Geelong has become a bit of a 'lifestyle' city due to its proximity to the sea and is, to some extent, being deindustrialized.  It's beginning to look more like the Gold Coast everyday...

 
Foamer GEEWONG

Location: Geelong

With the tropical weather and all?
But really housing here as going crazy price wise.  Small 1 bedroom apartments over looking any water ask for much more than is is really worth. 

 
MelbourneCity Chief Commissioner

Regardless of whether electrification occurs, services to/from Geelong won't go through the loop. It won't be too long before it won't be possible to get all services from Upfield, Craigieburn and Sunbury through the loop. Plus the loop is limited to six carriages - whereas it is likely that Geelong will eventually go consistently longer (regardless of electrification or not).

Electrification is an equation. Does the savings made from purchasing electrified rolling stock (which is much cheaper than DMU) equal the cost of electification. Sooner or later, electrification will happen - the only question is when.  Of course, if battery technology improves, you might not need wires the whole way.  Smile

Imagine it - train goes under wires to the edge of the metro network, and uses batteries to get to Geelong where it goes back onto wires to recharge. Smile  Not science fiction - Japanese test train is doing it at the moment from memory.

RRL means the track capacity issue to Geelong goes away - well until you hit four trains per hour from Geelong which won't happen for a while (especially if that's four 9-carriage trains).

- Revenue



Surely there is scope to investigate double deck rollingstock? Has the DoT looked at double deckers for the Geelong line?

 
SamTheMan79 Chief Train Controller

Location: Geelong

For sale: one Geelong-Melbourne rail line (slightly used)

The BAILLIEU Government is refusing to rule-out putting regional rail company  V-Line up for sale.

It’s been asked if V-Line is on the sale agenda during question time in  parliament but has refused to answer.

It comes after premier TED BAILLIEU said he’s not shy of selling off state  assets to keep the budget in the black.

Shadow Public Transport Minister FIONA RICHARDSON says if it happens it’ll be  a blow for Geelong commuters already dealing with late and overcrowded  services.

http://www.bayfm.com.au/index.php/news/18244-for-sale-one-geelong-melbourne-rail-line-slightly-used

 
Carnot Deputy Commissioner



For sale: one Geelong-Melbourne rail line (slightly used)

The BAILLIEU Government is refusing to rule-out putting regional rail company  V-Line up for sale.

It’s been asked if V-Line is on the sale agenda during question time in  parliament but has refused to answer.

It comes after premier TED BAILLIEU said he’s not shy of selling off state  assets to keep the budget in the black.

Shadow Public Transport Minister FIONA RICHARDSON says if it happens it’ll be  a blow for Geelong commuters already dealing with late and overcrowded  services.

http://www.bayfm.com.au/index.php/news/18244-for-sale-one-geelong-melbourne-rail-line-slightly-used

- SamTheMan79

 

Two words that describe selling off V/line if it came to that: "Electoral Suicide". 

Even Mr Napthine has since admitted that privatizing rail freight was the wrong decision, so I kind of doubt any government would now be completely mad enough to sell V/Line.  Well maybe....

 
The_Fly Station Staff



For sale: one Geelong-Melbourne rail line (slightly used)

The BAILLIEU Government is refusing to rule-out putting regional rail company  V-Line up for sale.

It’s been asked if V-Line is on the sale agenda during question time in  parliament but has refused to answer.

It comes after premier TED BAILLIEU said he’s not shy of selling off state  assets to keep the budget in the black.

Shadow Public Transport Minister FIONA RICHARDSON says if it happens it’ll be  a blow for Geelong commuters already dealing with late and overcrowded  services.

http://www.bayfm.com.au/index.php/news/18244-for-sale-one-geelong-melbourne-rail-line-slightly-used

- SamTheMan79




Rolling Eyes    

If they go ahead and privatise V/Line then that's just stupid. The liberals have to flog off everything no matter what. They just make up any excuse.

 
woodford Chief Commissioner




If they go ahead and privatise V/Line then that's just stupid. The liberals have to flog off everything no matter what. They just make up any excuse.

- The_Fly

While this is well off topic...............

The late Jim Cairns described the politician problem nicely in an interview a long time ago, he said when you get into power a large number of people start telling one how good and powerfull you are. Unless one is really strong minded and carefull you tend to lose all sense of proportion and end up believing your way is the only way to save the world. I remember the interview it was VERY enlightening..............

A point.............. why would someone buy a company that is garrunteed to make a loss and require propping up by the government, hmmmm, I suppose there are dills in all walks of life, not only in politics.  As far as I am aware few public transport rail systems around the world make a profit.

 

 
Bullucked Chief Train Controller






If they go ahead and privatise V/Line then that's just stupid. The liberals have to flog off everything no matter what. They just make up any excuse.
- The_Fly

While this is well off topic...............

The late Jim Cairns described the politician problem nicely in an interview a long time ago, he said when you get into power a large number of people start telling one how good and powerfull you are. Unless one is really strong minded and carefull you tend to lose all sense of proportion and end up believing your way is the only way to save the world. I remember the interview it was VERY enlightening..............

A point.............. why would someone buy a company that is garrunteed to make a loss and require propping up by the government, hmmmm, I suppose there are dills in all walks of life, not only in politics.  As far as I am aware few public transport rail systems around the world make a profit.

 

- woodford

 

Woodford

I think the answer to this is 'subsidies'. No business would go into something like this with the idea of making a loss. (Witness Metro) 

Note; National Express maybe not a good example

Shocked

 
Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

Location: Lilydale, Vic

Considering that the accepted return of farebox vs V/Line costs is about 10%, I don't think any company would want to take on running a service unless they were also getting the 90% subsidy. This of course assumes that Geelong services are on par with the quoted 10% average across all V/Line services.

 
electric Train Controller

Location: Whittlesea Line, probably a new X'Trapolis

Surely there is scope to investigate double deck rollingstock? Has the DoT looked at double deckers for the Geelong line?

- MelbourneCity



Having seen the Regio DB double deckers in regional Germany, I agree completely - they were far more comfortable than anything we have here, dual class and were capable of  travelling quite quickly (naturally, hauled by an electric locomotive). I don't see why we can't do it here with any combination of diesel or electric, loco hauled or self propelled - double deck shouldn't be a problem as Regional Rail link will mean they'll be going through newly rebuilt tunnels.
And now, they're ordering more loco hauled ones in Germany with Victoria's favourite train company...

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/db-orders-double-deck-trains-for-long-distance-services.html

 
duttonbay Minister for Railways

Considering that the accepted return of farebox vs V/Line costs is about 10%, I don't think any company would want to take on running a service unless they were also getting the 90% subsidy. This of course assumes that Geelong services are on par with the quoted 10% average across all V/Line services.

- Ballast_Plough


Indeed. they would get a subsidy plus to make it enticing, but the government gets a one off chunk of money which can be used for other stuff... Of course it will cost us (the taxpayers) more in the long run, but as a short term way of raising funds it works - remember any government only looks as far as the next election, and this government needs to make some things happen to try and appease the voters.

 
Fat307 Station Master

I was wondering when some one was going to bring up national express, didn't the government have to take back possession of vline from them? Or did they just walk away?

 
wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria

I was wondering when some one was going to bring up national express, didn't the government have to take back possession of vline from them? Or did they just walk away?

- Fat307


Some news articles which detail what happened...

December 16, 2003 when NX announced they were bailing:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/16/1039656342711.html

The day after:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/17/1039656372446.html
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/17/1039656391487.html

And the fallout:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/04/1057179155234.html

And towards refranchising:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/01/1067597199331.html

 
woodford Chief Commissioner



For sale: one Geelong-Melbourne rail line (slightly used)

The BAILLIEU Government is refusing to rule-out putting regional rail company  V-Line up for sale.

It’s been asked if V-Line is on the sale agenda during question time in  parliament but has refused to answer.

It comes after premier TED BAILLIEU said he’s not shy of selling off state  assets to keep the budget in the black.

Shadow Public Transport Minister FIONA RICHARDSON says if it happens it’ll be  a blow for Geelong commuters already dealing with late and overcrowded  services.

http://www.bayfm.com.au/index.php/news/18244-for-sale-one-geelong-melbourne-rail-line-slightly-used

- SamTheMan79



One point I would like to put up at this time is beware that this is not some kind of smoke screen to deflect people away from the problem in hand. The article in question is almost entirely negative with no real evidence of anything. It is very possible that someone in the party leaked this so called information in order to get the exact reaction that has come about in order to try an get peoples mind off the over crowding.

Its possibly worthwhile to remind this governement (and the media) that they (the goverment) have only a single seat majority, if they do not to do something constructive with public transport there is a good possiblility that they will go down in history as only serving a single term before being kicked out..

Woodford

 
woodford Chief Commissioner






If they go ahead and privatise V/Line then that's just stupid. The liberals have to flog off everything no matter what. They just make up any excuse.
- The_Fly

While this is well off topic...............

The late Jim Cairns described the politician problem nicely in an interview a long time ago, he said when you get into power a large number of people start telling one how good and powerfull you are. Unless one is really strong minded and carefull you tend to lose all sense of proportion and end up believing your way is the only way to save the world. I remember the interview it was VERY enlightening..............

A point.............. why would someone buy a company that is garrunteed to make a loss and require propping up by the government, hmmmm, I suppose there are dills in all walks of life, not only in politics.  As far as I am aware few public transport rail systems around the world make a profit.

 

- woodford

 

Woodford

I think the answer to this is 'subsidies'. No business would go into something like this with the idea of making a loss. (Witness Metro) 

Note; National Express maybe not a good example

Shocked

- Bullucked

rhetoric

Thanks, the second paragraph was just a bit of rhetoric, the main purpose of the post was to highlight the conditions under which these people work which do not always allow for what we would call clear thinking. Look at the behaviour of many people who get the public spotlight.

Woodford

 
woodford Chief Commissioner

Surely there is scope to investigate double deck rollingstock? Has the DoT looked at double deckers for the Geelong line?

- MelbourneCity



Having seen the Regio DB double deckers in regional Germany, I agree completely - they were far more comfortable than anything we have here, dual class and were capable of  travelling quite quickly (naturally, hauled by an electric locomotive). I don't see why we can't do it here with any combination of diesel or electric, loco hauled or self propelled - double deck shouldn't be a problem as Regional Rail link will mean they'll be going through newly rebuilt tunnels.
And now, they're ordering more loco hauled ones in Germany with Victoria's favourite train company...

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/db-orders-double-deck-trains-for-long-distance-services.html/quote

In the end it comes down to cost I think you will find. It is very unlikely you could make a double decker DMU as the size of the engine and transmission would be to large, the Cummins QSK19R fitted to the VLocitys is quite a big motor and there is little space beneath these double deckers. So we are looking at either electric or another class of powerfull DE pass locos which essentailly would only be used in peak hour. Given the current circumstances probably an over all good solution would be would be some kind of wide door VLocity with more compact seating or more standing room as one cannot see this governement forking out the funds for half a dozen sets of double decker pass cars and a score or more of say 3000 BHP pass locos for push pull operation..

Woodford

- electric
 
bevans - Administrator Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

The DB order for long distance double deck trains at: http://www.railpage.com.au/news/article-10402/ roughly comes to AUD $467m. Does this sound about right?

What is the budget now for RRL? The budget should be able to accomodate this type of rollingstock and electrification.  Where is all the money going?  I cannot work the numbers out.

I cannot believe we are so dumb in Victoria that we would not go with double deck rollingstock.  I have seen comments in this forum regarding less trains but more carriages.  What we need is more trains with the same number of carriages. Probably 6 car trains given platform lengths.  Trying to do this diesel hauled rollingtstock is going back to the steam era.

Another project in Victoria poorly planned and executed. Just pathetic.

A 20 minute service for 20 hours of the day between Geelong and Melbourne is what is required. Smaller feeder services from Colac, Drysdale etc, is what is required to feed the higher speed EMU services to Melbourne.

Victoria will never get it.  As I have said in the past, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again but expecting a different result.

Regards
Brian

 
don_dunstan Chief Commissioner

Location: Melbourne

..............
I cannot believe we are so dumb in Victoria that we would not go with double deck rollingstock.  I have seen comments in this forum regarding less trains but more carriages.  What we need is more trains with the same number of carriages. Probably 6 car trains given platform lengths.  Trying to do this diesel hauled rollingtstock is going back to the steam era.

Another project in Victoria poorly planned and executed. Just pathetic............

Brian

- bevans



There were two problems with Regional Fast Rail.  It started as a fairly sound concept but the cost over-runs and over-engineering just went out of control after they commenced reconstruction in 2003 - they spent a fortune on reducing five minutes off the Ballarat schedule (for instance) but reduced inbuilt redundancy by singling large swathes of the Bendigo line to reduce the 'kinetic envelope' in tunnels.  The second problem was that Labor in 1999 were hopelessly unprepared for office - I don't think they expected Jeff to lose - hence they had no idea what they were actually doing for the first couple of years and when they did eventually get around to Regional Fast Rail they didn't really have a solid focus on what it was supposed to be about (Improving reliability? Super-fast transit times? Lots of services round the clock?).

In retrospect they should have gone with focus on increased services as I feel (as a sometimes user of the Ballarat line) that this is probably what got bums back on seats.  As it turns out they weren't prepared for the popularity of the renewed service as we have all discussed ad nauseum above.  I guess the other factors were the huge increases in petrol prices AND the fact that Melbourne house prices became astronomical to the point where people preferred to commute from Bacchus Marsh and even Ballarat rather than fork out half a million plus for a house in the metropolis.  However figures like 160 percent increases in patronage weren't really anticipated - I think that's fairly obvious now!

Back to your original point about wasting money; Labor became experts in the last few years of office I think we can all agree - silly useless redundant projects that cost a fortune and didn't do much.  My favourite waste of money was the North-South pipeline; not only did they piss off a huge amount of the electorate with stealing water from Northern Victoria to feed Melbourne but they also didn't apparently antipate the fact that it was inevitably going to rain again and Sugarloaf reservior would fill up all by itself WITHOUT the pipe.  Bye bye 800 million !

 
bevans - Administrator Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Could not agree more.  Let's not forget a project that will eventually cost as over $5b. The desal plant.

Labour really made a mess of what could have been a series of excellent transport projects.

Regards
Brian

 
Carnot Deputy Commissioner

Well the Geelong line was more than struggling tonight (see V/Line Disruptions sticky).

Twitter has become a place for many to vent their fury so it seems, with some trains taking over 4 hours to make the trip...

 
tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned

Well the Geelong line was more than struggling tonight (see V/Line Disruptions sticky).

Twitter has become a place for many to vent their fury so it seems, with some trains taking over 4 hours to make the trip...

- Carnot

They had V/Line person on the radio moments ago....

 

....A fault with a HighVoltage line which supplies the signals.

 

V/Line are going to offer the customers, one day of free travel and if they ask, a free calender may be provided?

 

I want to ask, why could the train not move even under a slow speed until it reached the next station?

 

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