Myki #2

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AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69

Well if you look at the permissions on the card, reading the card is open to all. It is writing to the card that is encrypted and requires a master key.

the fact that data can be read in the first place (and the card says so when you scan it) does mean it can be reverse engineered to understand what it means. Writing to it is a different story.

However in other systems, the data is in an actual string that appears immediately.

Scanning HK Octopus returns balance unencrypted and in plain text (not Hex)

Scanning Tokyo Suica returns the transaction list and balance in plain text. Both require encryption to modify the data.

However Myki  has decided to do it strangely. Incidently, scanning another Mifare DESfire uni issued has nothing open and trying to scan it returns 0s (which is what a full encryption does)

 
Raymondn Station Master

Location: Pakenham

Although it doesn't appear online, apparently today's Geelong Advertiser has an article stating that V/Line users are getting myki next year.

Yep....Only 6 years late. Razz

- RATLSNAKE




Hopefully Myki will be in use before next years Avalon Airshow.

 
Tremere Train Controller

I want to bring up another issue for the tech buffs out there, something that doesn't make sense to me.

I have checked the serial number on the myki, and it does not match the card number. I have tested with 5 different cards.
Wouldn't it make sense to make this the same?

Another issue is that when you read the data off the card, there are only 4 files that can be accessed

2 of them are the same as tested on 3 different cards, the other 2 seem to differ

There are 10 files that can not be read at all without a Master Key.


- AzN_dj


Having the card number different from the serial number could be for various reasons, i.e they can control the format of card numbers. Chances are the two numbers are related...

I dumped out the format of my old myki last year. The 'plaintext' parts are the same on the newer one I got a few weeks ago. So is the file structure.


 
bramt Deputy Commissioner

Weekend Saver anomalies:

I took a train from my Z1 station on the Cragieburn line to Roxburgh Park, took the 901 (world's longest bus route Smile from there to Epping. 


I have a monthly full fare zone 1 myki, touched on in my zone 1 station, took a train to Roxburgh Park where I did not touch off, but did touch on and off a 901 bus which I took to Epping. I was not deducted the expected $0.02 (being the difference between a $3.28 2 hr zone 1, the ticket I have active, and the $3.30 weekend saver fare). I still didn't have it taken off when I touched on at Epping some time later, or when I touched off in the city. Doesn't make sense, last weekend on a weekly I took a train out to Z2 and touched off, and 2c Was deducted.

I know there are other anomalies when you touch on in Z2 on a weekend with a Z1 pass active, you get overcharged and they don't settle it until their monthly audits checking for daily cap breaches.

 
xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong

I was thinking on the way home on the bus from volunteering in Queenscliff on Thursday, and it occured to me:

If we're still having fare issues with Myki now, then what will it be like when Myki goes live on V/Line services...will it be able to distinguish between peak and off peak fares?

I know people such as Revenue will say something like, 'of course!'. but I have worries when the fine line between what Myki is programmed to do, and what happens in reality.

Example being, there is a train bound for Marshall that leaves Spencer Street Southern Cross at 1559hrs, 1 minute before the afternoon peak period kicks in, and the more expensive peak fares apply. Arrival times at Geelong, Sth Geelong, and Marshall, are 1657hrs, 1700hrs, and 1709hrs respectively.

What assurances are there that pax bound for these stations will be charged the off peak fare, with the Myki system recognising that a train left Spencer Street Southern Cross before the peak period started, but the time is around about 1700hrs, and an hour into the afternoon peak?
And what will happen if this train is late? How will Myki distinguish between trains arriving in the Geelong area? Some people like arriving early for trains, so if I touch on at, say, 1530hrs, along with a friend, I catch the 1559hrs service to Marshall, and my friend misses the train because he was too long in the Gents, but he then catches the 1619hrs to Geelong. How will Myki be able to differentiate between the pair of us when we go to clock off, especially if the train I'm runs late?

 
wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria

If we're still having fare issues with Myki now, then what will it be like when Myki goes live on V/Line services...will it be able to distinguish between peak and off peak fares?

[snip]

Example being, there is a train bound for Marshall that leaves Spencer Street Southern Cross at 1559hrs, 1 minute before the afternoon peak period kicks in, and the more expensive peak fares apply. Arrival times at Geelong, Sth Geelong, and Marshall, are 1657hrs, 1700hrs, and 1709hrs respectively.

- xxxxlbear


My understanding is that a touch on at the barriers at Southern Cross will tell your Myki the default fare to be charged is a Zone 1+2 two hour. When the conductor checks tickets onboard the V/Line service the reader will reset the default fare to the end of the line for a given service (for a train to Marshall it would zones 1+2+3+4).

I am guessing that since the conductor is resetting the default fare on your Myki to include the additional zones, then an off-peak 'flag' would also be applied to your Myki, so when you touch off the reader knows to charge you less.

(link for zones: http://www.vline.com.au/maps-stations-stops/lineinfo/geelong.html)

Of course, this opens up the ability to dodge the conductor for the entire trip, get out in Geelong, 'forget' to touch off, and only be hit with the Zone 1+2 default fare.

 
xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong

Interesting, thanks Wongm.

Only concern in that case as quite often happens when the train is full, is that the conductor stays put, and no tickets get checked.

So it will be interesting to see how Myki handles the additional zones, and the peak / off peak thing when it comes into use for V/Line.

 
liron Junior Train Controller

The government is setting up a Myki customer experience panel in which up to 1200 people will give feedback on their experience with myki.

http://ptv.vic.gov.au/news/news-promotions/1200-passengers-required-for-myki-customer-experience-panel-from-sunday-15-april-2012/

It's being called a brigade by the Herald Sun:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/strong-baillieu-brigade-to-save-myki-under-fire/story-fn7x8me2-1226326679707

 
melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange

The government is setting up a Myki customer experience panel in which up to 1200 people will give feedback on their experience with myki.

http://ptv.vic.gov.au/news/news-promotions/1200-passengers-required-for-myki-customer-experience-panel-from-sunday-15-april-2012/

It's being called a brigade by the Herald Sun:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/strong-baillieu-brigade-to-save-myki-under-fire/story-fn7x8me2-1226326679707


- liron


People may not can read the herald sun article, so I have posted it.





AN army of 1200 myki commuters will be enlisted by the Baillieu Government to tell public transport chiefs what is going wrong with Melbourne's crisis-plagued "smart card".

 

In a desperate bid to fix the $1.3 billion ticketing system, the Government will spend $1 million recruiting and running a "Baillieu Brigade" of train, tram and bus commuters.

The scheme - which will see those chosen paid in grocery, movie and toy vouchers - is already under attack, with some fed-up myki users claiming it is a further costly piece of political spin.

As crowds of commuters battle long queues and faulty myki equipment, the Government has hired consultants Colmar Brunton to run the Baillieu Brigade.

Will the Baillieu Brigade work? Vote and have your say below

Transport Minister Terry Mulder is expected to announce the scheme - officially known as the "myki customer experience panel" - today.

The Baillieu Brigade will be directed to test the performance of touch points, analyse their ability to "top up" credit, and comment on myki advertising and customer service officer standards.

Mr Mulder said the panel would give customers a voice.

 "While people already using myki give valuable feedback from time-to-time, this dedicated panel will allow the Government to focus on particular aspects of the system," he said.

"In particular, all day-to-day customer experiences will be monitored."

But commuters slammed the plan yesterday.

"I'm not keen on the Government wasting more of my taxes," Jeremy Rayner, 32, of Richmond, said.

"It looks like they're just throwing more money at this long-running problem."

Glenroy commuter Catherine Schmidt, 45, said: "Firms are always spending big on PR so it looks like the Government's doing the same thing."

The Baillieu Brigade will also be ordered to undertake specific tasks, such as "touching off" during peak periods.

Instead of being paid cash, the 1200 commuters will earn points they can exchange for vouchers that can be spent at Bunnings, Coles Express, Myer, Rebel Sports and other outlets.

A recruitment campaign will be launched this week.

Panel members will have to pay for most of their travel.

- A user

 
Speed Minister for Railways

That Myki panel survey site is a bit odd. All that it has is a home page where you can enter your contact details. I entered them and pressed the next button. It did not ask me what modes of transport I took, how often or where I went.

This is unethical website development. If I press next, I should not expect that it will "persist" my personal details to a database. Next means go to the next screen of this wizard. If I'm going to commit to something, I should be pressing a button labelled Finish or Submit Details.

 
xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong

I submitted my details aslo, but thought the process quite odd as well.

Even though the final page said that further contact will be made (I presume about whether one qualifies to participate in the survey or not), most survey sites I'm a member of, have at least a mini screener survey to determine if one actually qualifies to participate.

What the wholesale gathering of information by Myki means is that Myki will have a huge database of peoples name, email, postcodes, and phone numbers, even if they eventually fail to qualify to participate in the Myki survey. Who knows what Myki will do with the information, or who they will on-sell it to.

 
electric Train Controller

Location: Whittlesea Line, probably a new X'Trapolis

I submitted my details aslo, but thought the process quite odd as well.

Even though the final page said that further contact will be made (I presume about whether one qualifies to participate in the survey or not), most survey sites I'm a member of, have at least a mini screener survey to determine if one actually qualifies to participate.

What the wholesale gathering of information by Myki means is that Myki will have a huge database of peoples name, email, postcodes, and phone numbers, even if they eventually fail to qualify to participate in the Myki survey. Who knows what Myki will do with the information, or who they will on-sell it to.

- xxxxlbear



*Colmar Brunton

 
AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69

An Update on the Reverse Engineering:

Before, I told you guys that there are 4 readable files on the myki card. Two were static across cards, and the other two changed across cards.

Now, I have been focusing on the very large file, and this is what I have found so far:

xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:10 means touched off
xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:12 means touched on

Now the other file that seems to change between cards, my guess is that this is the balance. It has been staying the same on my card (But my balance is constant as I have a pass.)

So, once again:
1. If you have enough time to help out and go through lines of codes
2. If you have one of the following handsets
 - Samsung Galaxy Nexus
 - Samsung Galaxy S2 4G (Telstra version)
 - Sony Xperia S
 - HTC One X
Or you know that your phone has NFC included

Then it would be appreciated if you can help out with this reverse engineering project, provided you are not concerned with privacy issues.

What I would need is to export the XMLs of your card after different scenarios, and so I can map things out.
So for example: Touch on at x station, then scan it with the phone and save it (saying you touched on and where), same when you touch off, same when you top up. 

So far, holding balance constant, there are 4 "strings" that change. The first string (which is 2 characters) I have worked out. Now the more data that I have, the sooner we can get a third party reader for the myki!

 
Mitty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Hawthorn

So, theoretically, you should be able to read your balance, pass details, touch status, and last ten transactions from the card, without knowing any of the super secret encryption keys?

Is there any kind of USB NFC device you could buy to do this from a PC?

 
jjbc Junior Train Controller

Is there any kind of USB NFC device you could buy to do this from a PC?

- Mitty


Yes, and they're around $60 for reader/writer units.

 
AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69

So, theoretically, you should be able to read your balance, pass details, touch status, and last ten transactions from the card, without knowing any of the super secret encryption keys?

- Mitty


That's pretty much the jist of it. It's just interpreting the data, which is going to be the hard bit. If it were fully encrypted, then the card would show nothing when you scan it, but it does show something, it's just in a different "language", so to speak. And we have one translation so far.



Is there any kind of USB NFC device you could buy to do this from a PC?
- A user


Of course there is, but more people are likely to have a mobile with the function than a PC with a specific reader for it.

 
Tremere Train Controller

So, theoretically, you should be able to read your balance, pass details, touch status, and last ten transactions from the card, without knowing any of the super secret encryption keys?

- Mitty


I'll pour some cold water on that: from the list I posted above, the majority of data on there is encrypted and requires the key. Two files and the backups of them are the only things in the open.

Presumably touch status is left in the open so the reader can figure out what to do quickly, without having to authenticate. 

I never dumped a card when it was 'touched on', so it looked static to me. 


Is there any kind of USB NFC device you could buy to do this from a PC?
- A user



I got one of these dongles from Snapper in Wellington:
http://www.snapper.co.nz/snapper-accessories/#sectionFor-snapper-feeder

They were kind enough to send me one (yes posted to Melbourne) at cost some years back for NFC experimentation.

 
Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren

Presumably touch status is left in the open so the reader can figure out what to do quickly, without having to authenticate.

- Tremere


Quickly? You're joking right?

 
Tremere Train Controller

Presumably touch status is left in the open so the reader can figure out what to do quickly, without having to authenticate.

- Tremere


Quickly? You're joking right?

- Braddo



To be serious, under DESFire, it takes a few commands back and forth to authenticate with the secret key*. Avoiding the need to do so (i.e until something definitely needs to be written to the card) makes sense. 

As I understand, it is not unusual for other PT smartcards to have read access in the open for this reason

* plus the CPU time for 3DES, which could be a bit on those 2006-era ARM CPUs in the myki readers.

 
Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren

I agree, but I'm wiling to bet other similar systems (for example Oyster) do the job in a fraction of the time it takes the myki machines.

 
AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69

I agree, but I'm wiling to bet other similar systems (for example Oyster) do the job in a fraction of the time it takes the myki machines.

- Braddo


Other systems also have more that is readable, compared to myki. Also other systems are used such as Mifare Classic and Felica, which do not have the amount of security as DESfire does, hence the authentication is quicker.

It also has to do with the readers that you purchase as well.

 
Speed Minister for Railways

I received a second survey form from Colmar Brunton. When I first followed the link, the page said that it was a bad link but also had a greyed out "Next" button. After trying tweaking security settings on different browsers, I pasted the URL into Internet Explorer, pressed "No" in answer to the question about the site not being certified and it enabled the "Next" button for me.

This one wanted to know whether I (or my family) worked in the transport industry, how often I caught each mode of public transport, how long I'd used Myki, whether I'd ever used Metcard, my postcode and how I'd speak of Myki ("highly" or "poorly"). Having used both Myki and Metcard, I felt no need to list off other ticketing systems that I'd used in other cities.

It works more reliably than Metcard does these days. I don't know whether that's "speaking of it highly unasked" or "neither highly nor poorly".

 
historian Chief Train Controller

The government is setting up a Myki customer experience panel in which up to 1200 people will give feedback on their experience with myki.

- liron

It's hard to believe that a survey of 1200 self selected people will actually tell anyone anything useful. It's market research, but not as we know it.

What the wholesale gathering of information by Myki means is that Myki will have a huge database of peoples name, email, postcodes, and phone numbers, even if they eventually fail to qualify to participate in the Myki survey. Who knows what Myki will do with the information, or who they will on-sell it to.

- xxxxlbear

I wouldn't be particularly worried about that. It depends on the use statement that you agree to. PTV is a part of the government and hence is subject to the privacy act. Personal information can only be collected for a stated purpose and may not be reused for other purposes. In particular the privacy commissioner would take a dim view of PTV selling it on to third parties.

 
Speed Minister for Railways

mX today had an article, with a picture of Borat in front of a Frankenbarrier holding a Myki card, in which they matched Myki users with movie characters. It uses the word "swipe" an inflammatory number of times.

Transport Ticketing Authority said today. Myki has spawned a new breed of commuters, some of them straight off a Hollywood sketch pad. And none of them swipe the same. Which myki character are you?

The Borat

Often an out-of-town, first-time user who ends up harassing an attendant because they have absolutely no idea what to do

Champion: Sacha Baron Cohen

The Rubber

Forceful types who won't take no for an answer, slamming their card hard up against the sensor and rubbing it back and forth like a bad guy's head unti lthey get a result

Their champion: Dirty Harry

Lazy Swiper

Any effort is too much effort. They keep their card in their wallet with a 50/50 chance of success

Champion: Homer Simpson

Timid Types

Approach the swiper like it's a rabid pit bull's mouth, taking short jabs while never sure what's going to happen. A 30/70 chance of success

Champion: Beaker, the Muppets

Germaphobes

They're afraid, very afraid, knowing full well thousands of people have already touched on with their grubby mitts

Champion: Anyone who has seen Contagion

One-touch Wonder

Marches straight up to the barrier, holds card directly on swiper, moves on quickly with 100 per cent success

Champion: George Clooney

The Farnarkler

Root around in their bags and pockets while holding up the line

Champion: Zach Galifianakis, The Hangover

The Hulk

Fed-up with huge queues, rude commuters and broken machines, erupt in anger and march off home in a fit of rage

Champion: The Incredible Hulk, The Avengers

- A user



 
xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong

Pfft, someone at Metro is either in possession of an over active imagination, been completely bored at work, or been smoking too much weed Laughing

 

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