NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

 
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
In the pre-2004 timetable, there were trains running express Revesby to Wolli Creek and they are faster than those via Sydenhem services now.
"stupid_girl"


Which part of 'everything was faster before 2004-2005' do you not understand?

If they are re-introduced, they will be just 2 minutes slower because Airport Line has a higher average speed!!!
"stupid_girl"


Objection! Nobody cares if it has a higher average speed because it still takes longer.

The four tracks between Sydenham and Redfern are sufficient to manage 40tph, more than Illawarra, Bankstown and South Coast services combined.
"stupid_girl"


The problem with that logic is that the spread of services across track pairs is uneven. i.e. the Illawarra pair has more services.

Conflicting movement will be greatly reduced by sending all Campbelltown services via Airport.
"stupid_girl"


Hmm - are stylised track diagrams available for scrutiny (I'm looking at the Central-Wolli Creek segment)? In any case, as was mentioned earlier, trains coming into the City via Airport cannot run onto the City Outer, i.e. they can only run via Museum and cannot run via Town Hall.

Anyway, this is an NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing thread, not a via Airport vs via Sydenham thread.

Yes, expenditure on infrastructure could increase the throughput of suburban trains on certain lines in Sydney. I don't see a motive for the RTBU to fight a measure that will bring more trains, more jobs for drivers and more jobs for guards.
"Speed"


Exactly. This will be attractive if OPO is introduced, as an increase in services could allow guard-to-driver crew redeployment.

In case of an overhaul on signalling, government will to spend will be the biggest block. Passenger resistence to CBD lines being closed for re-signalling may also make the government reluctant . The will of passengers to alight and to board promptly, especially at Town Hall & Wynyard, may also constrain train throughput.
"Speed"


A way to sell it will have to be found, of course.

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  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

In the pre-2004 timetable, there were trains running express Revesby to Wolli Creek and they are faster than those via Sydenhem services now.
"stupid_girl"


Which part of 'everything was faster before 2004-2005' do you not understand?
"Watson374"

It clearly shows that they do NOT need to run via Sydenhem to achieve similar travelling time.

If they are re-introduced, they will be just 2 minutes slower because Airport Line has a higher average speed!!!
"stupid_girl"


Objection! Nobody cares if it has a higher average speed because it still takes longer.[/quote][/quote]
Even if it takes 2 minutes longer, a trip from Glenfield to city is still significantly shorter than from Liverpool, which is closer to the city.
In other words, they still have a disproportionately high average speed.


Conflicting movement will be greatly reduced by sending all Campbelltown services via Airport.
"stupid_girl"


Hmm - are stylised track diagrams available for scrutiny (I'm looking at the Central-Wolli Creek segment)? In any case, as was mentioned earlier, trains coming into the City via Airport cannot run onto the City Outer, i.e. they can only run via Museum and cannot run via Town Hall.
"stupid_girl"

Running them via Airport and Museum only perfectly matches the objective of sectorization.
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

In case of an overhaul on signalling, government will to spend will be the biggest block. Passenger resistence to CBD lines being closed for re-signalling may also make the government reluctant . The will of passengers to alight and to board promptly, especially at Town Hall & Wynyard, may also constrain train throughput.
"Speed"

CBD lines need not be closed for re-signalling (and there are CBD shutdown twice a year already).

According to the usual practice in other countries, two signal systems will co-exist during the re-signalling.
The old signal system is maintained as a back up during initial operation of the new signal system.
Once the new system gets stable, the old system will be removed.
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

Ok SG, I'll bite.  What is the reasonable and achievable plan for better services on the North Shore line?  Unless you are referring to some other line?
"simonl"

The only reasonable plan is the 2nd Harbour Crossing, which serves as a new corridor between Chatswood and City.
Triplication or quadruplication (even to Gordon) is not justifiable north of Chatswood.

After that, I think the next priority should be a new corridor between Parramatta and City.
There are various possibilities such as following Victoria Road or following the former West metro proposal or following former Northwest metro to Epping and then into PRL.

As the expensive Airport Line project already serves as the third pair of tracks between Wolli Creek and City, sextuplication between should not be considered until Airport Line is saturated.

I'd have to admit that a lot of the value of the K2R Quad is reduced by cancelling the Erskenville-Sydenham sextup, which combined would have increase the level of operational separation.
"simonl"

Sending all Cambelltown trains via Airport has exactly the same level of operational separation.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
It clearly shows that they do NOT need to run via Sydenhem to achieve similar travelling time.
"stupid_girl"


/facepalm

You're forgetting that if you're going to use the pre-Slowdown value for via Airport, you also have to use the pre-Slowdown value for via Sydenham...

...thus, your argument is invalid.

Even if it takes 2 minutes longer, a trip from Glenfield to city is still significantly shorter than from Liverpool, which is closer to the city.
In other words, they still have a disproportionately high average speed.
"stupid_girl"


That one is a puzzle to solve, because it's more about Liverpool being between a rock (Glenfield) and a hard place (Granville). Foaming around, I came up with an Illawarra-style all-semi-fast for the Bankstown line and the idea of an all-day semi-fast Campbelltown via Regents Park service.

Running them via Airport and Museum only perfectly matches the objective of sectorization.
"stupid_girl"


/facepalm

Are you serious? They're both under Sector 2. (Unless, of course, you're arguing that running them via Town Hall creates conflicting movements, which ironically doesn't, due to the beautiful Flying Junctions.)

In case of an overhaul on signalling, government will to spend will be the biggest block. Passenger resistence to CBD lines being closed for re-signalling may also make the government reluctant . The will of passengers to alight and to board promptly, especially at Town Hall & Wynyard, may also constrain train throughput.
"Speed"


CBD lines need not be closed for re-signalling (and there are CBD shutdown twice a year already).

According to the usual practice in other countries, two signal systems will co-exist during the re-signalling.
The old signal system is maintained as a back up during initial operation of the new signal system.
Once the new system gets stable, the old system will be removed.
"stupid_girl"


Very nice in theory.

Unfortunately, as British experience with both the Central and Jubilee lines on the London Underground shows, you'll still have plenty of disruption along the way.
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

Running them via Airport and Museum only perfectly matches the objective of sectorization.
"stupid_girl"


/facepalm

Are you serious? They're both under Sector 2. (Unless, of course, you're arguing that running them via Town Hall creates conflicting movements, which ironically doesn't, due to the beautiful Flying Junctions.)
"Watson374"

They are both in Sector 2 now but I would still use the term "sectorization" loosely to describe separating Cambelltown service (still in Sector 2) from Bankstown Line (transferred to rapid transit).

CBD lines need not be closed for re-signalling (and there are CBD shutdown twice a year already).

According to the usual practice in other countries, two signal systems will co-exist during the re-signalling.
The old signal system is maintained as a back up during initial operation of the new signal system.
Once the new system gets stable, the old system will be removed.
"stupid_girl"


Very nice in theory.

Unfortunately, as British experience with both the Central and Jubilee lines on the London Underground shows, you'll still have plenty of disruption along the way.
"Watson374"

Experience in Hong Kong shows that the signalling system can be upgraded using a few hours every night with NO disruption.
  grog Train Controller

It is clear that some on here are living in a fantasy world.

All lines should be able to handle 20tph, with branching allowing different patterns/routes to combine to achieve that.

With regard to the Airport line, it should run at 20tph, with all trains coming too/from the Museum on the City Circle, with the line branching after Wolli Creek into two logical lines - all to Revesby on the local tracks, and Express to Revesby and all to Macarthur on the express tracks. Suggesting that $1-2 billion should be spend between Sydenham and Erskineville adding extra tracks to save a couple of minutes for Campbelltown commuters (which often includes me as this is where my family is from) is simply not an effective use of the very limited funds available.

Between Wolli Creek and Central there are 3 pairs, and they could all run close to maximum capacity if managed correctly. Hurstville/Bankstown take the local pair from Sydenham as rapid transit, running into new CBD line. Illawarra runs into ESR on the main pair, and Revesby local and Campbelltown/SWRL express merge at Wolli Creek to run exclusively into the Airport line and City Circle via Museum.

The new world will be all about operational simplicity rather than trying to be everything to everyone. If you can run simple stopping patterns on all lines you reduce the opportunity for failure and increase the certainty of the travel time. Certainty of travel time is worth more than anything else - no one wants that 3 minute quicker journey 4 days a week if it takes 10 minutes longer on the 5th day.
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

It is clear that some on here are living in a fantasy world.

All lines should be able to handle 20tph, with branching allowing different patterns/routes to combine to achieve that.

With regard to the Airport line, it should run at 20tph, with all trains coming too/from the Museum on the City Circle, with the line branching after Wolli Creek into two logical lines - all to Revesby on the local tracks, and Express to Revesby and all to Macarthur on the express tracks. Suggesting that $1-2 billion should be spend between Sydenham and Erskineville adding extra tracks to save a couple of minutes for Campbelltown commuters (which often includes me as this is where my family is from) is simply not an effective use of the very limited funds available.

Between Wolli Creek and Central there are 3 pairs, and they could all run close to maximum capacity if managed correctly. Hurstville/Bankstown take the local pair from Sydenham as rapid transit, running into new CBD line. Illawarra runs into ESR on the main pair, and Revesby local and Campbelltown/SWRL express merge at Wolli Creek to run exclusively into the Airport line and City Circle via Museum.

The new world will be all about operational simplicity rather than trying to be everything to everyone. If you can run simple stopping patterns on all lines you reduce the opportunity for failure and increase the certainty of the travel time. Certainty of travel time is worth more than anything else - no one wants that 3 minute quicker journey 4 days a week if it takes 10 minutes longer on the 5th day.
"grog"

Totally agree.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Ok SG, I'll bite.  What is the reasonable and achievable plan for better services on the North Shore line?  Unless you are referring to some other line?
"simonl"

The only reasonable plan is the 2nd Harbour Crossing, which serves as a new corridor between Chatswood and City.
Triplication or quadruplication (even to Gordon) is not justifiable north of Chatswood.
"stupid_girl"

And this plan is only justifyable if the NWRL is built, which you and I both hate.

I'd have to admit that a lot of the value of the K2R Quad is reduced by cancelling the Erskenville-Sydenham sextup, which combined would have increase the level of operational separation.
"simonl"

Sending all Cambelltown trains via Airport has exactly the same level of operational separation.
"stupid_girl"

Conversely, K2RQ + E-S sextup also has the same level of operational separation as sending all the trains via Airport.

Suggesting that $1-2 billion should be spend between Sydenham and Erskineville adding extra tracks to save a couple of minutes for Campbelltown commuters (which often includes me as this is where my family is from) is simply not an effective use of the very limited funds available.
"grog"

I thought the price when cancelled was $190m.  It's a fairly cheap upgrade - isn't the space already reserved?

It also allows trains from the Illawarra to reach Sydney Terminal without blocking ESR paths, but that aspect does violate sectorisation.
  Rails Chief Commissioner

It is clear that some on here are living in a fantasy world.

All lines should be able to handle 20tph, with branching allowing different patterns/routes to combine to achieve that.

With regard to the Airport line, it should run at 20tph, with all trains coming too/from the Museum on the City Circle, with the line branching after Wolli Creek into two logical lines - all to Revesby on the local tracks, and Express to Revesby and all to Macarthur on the express tracks. Suggesting that $1-2 billion should be spend between Sydenham and Erskineville adding extra tracks to save a couple of minutes for Campbelltown commuters (which often includes me as this is where my family is from) is simply not an effective use of the very limited funds available.

Between Wolli Creek and Central there are 3 pairs, and they could all run close to maximum capacity if managed correctly. Hurstville/Bankstown take the local pair from Sydenham as rapid transit, running into new CBD line. Illawarra runs into ESR on the main pair, and Revesby local and Campbelltown/SWRL express merge at Wolli Creek to run exclusively into the Airport line and City Circle via Museum.

The new world will be all about operational simplicity rather than trying to be everything to everyone. If you can run simple stopping patterns on all lines you reduce the opportunity for failure and increase the certainty of the travel time. Certainty of travel time is worth more than anything else - no one wants that 3 minute quicker journey 4 days a week if it takes 10 minutes longer on the 5th day.
"grog"


Ah grog, ever since I read the Governments plan I was waiting for you to post Smile I agree with everything you say above, I personally like the plans for Cityrail south of the harbour although I am still not 100% clear on some of the details.
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

I'd have to admit that a lot of the value of the K2R Quad is reduced by cancelling the Erskenville-Sydenham sextup, which combined would have increase the level of operational separation.
"simonl"

Sending all Cambelltown trains via Airport has exactly the same level of operational separation.
"stupid_girl"

Conversely, K2RQ + E-S sextup also has the same level of operational separation as sending all the trains via Airport.
"simonl"

In other words, E-S sextup has no marginal benefit in terms of operational separation while Airport Line has sufficient spare capacity.
Then what's the point to build it at this stage?


By the time Airport Line is saturated, E-S sextup will benefit the network in terms of capacity.
I don't think E-S sextup should be considered until that point.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I thought the price when cancelled was $190m.  It's a fairly cheap upgrade - isn't the space already reserved?

It also allows trains from the Illawarra to reach Sydney Terminal without blocking ESR paths, but that aspect does violate sectorisation.
"simonl"


The space is there at Erskineville and St Peters, yes.
  drwaddles In need of a breath mint

Location: Newcastle
I thought the price when cancelled was $190m.  It's a fairly cheap upgrade - isn't the space already reserved?
"simonl"


It's not as easy as you might think. The physical space inside the corridor is there along the full length, however there's the following big works still required:

- finish the 'tunnel' under Princes Highway
- new bridge over Coulson Street
- new bridge over Mcdonald Street
- new bridge over Victoria Street
- new two-track tunnel under Erskineville Road
- earthworks north of St Peters along the full length
- appropriate connections into the mess of tracks at Macdonaldtown (whatever that may be)

All this being done next to live lines as well - I would not expect change from $1b the way that rail projects are costed these days.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
I thought the price when cancelled was $190m.  It's a fairly cheap upgrade - isn't the space already reserved?
"simonl"


It's not as easy as you might think. The physical space inside the corridor is there along the full length, however there's the following big works still required:

- finish the 'tunnel' under Princes Highway
- new bridge over Coulson Street
- new bridge over Mcdonald Street
- new bridge over Victoria Street
- new two-track tunnel under Erskineville Road
- earthworks north of St Peters along the full length
- appropriate connections into the mess of tracks at Macdonaldtown (whatever that may be)

All this being done next to live lines as well - I would not expect change from $1b the way that rail projects are costed these days.
"drwaddles"


the price is high. with campbell town express dumped and going va the airport that could be worth some merit in saving 1billion dollars.
what we need is a
-airport shuttle service to central. persumbly from wolli creek to sydney terminal via the 4 airport line stops. (5tph all day with (train every 12 min) the other 15tph reserved for east hills servies)
-metro services to bondi junction as well as the existing govt plan
-express services to compliment metro services for people south of penshurst into the city so they get there faster. ( hurstville, wolli creek, sydnham, ESR)
-services that terminate at hurstville and turn back to penshurst to improve frequency for people in the south who can then join the metro

this should mean that there would only be 2 stopping patterns north of Hurstville.
-all stations metro
-express illawarra (services pattern as stated above) + campbelltown express services (sydnham, city circle)
-4tph express illawarra and 4tph campbelltown express making 8 trains per hour (a train every 7.5 minute) and
-for metro 30tph+(train every 2 minutes). 14 from hurstville and 15 from bankstown (train every 4 min before sydnham and a train every 2 min after sydnham).

this should in theory not need the sextup.

this is my argument against the scrapping of campbelltown express services via sydnham as proposed by stupid girl. campbelltown express can be done under my plan and it is indeed faster than airport services and will provide a faster way into the city for those passengers
  drwaddles In need of a breath mint

Location: Newcastle
-airport shuttle service to central. persumbly from wolli creek to sydney terminal via the 4 airport line stops. (5tph all day with (train every 12 min) the other 15tph reserved for east hills servies)
"fixitguy"


I don't see the point to this. You might as well run them to Revesby along the local tracks, killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Also, why 5tph? 6tph should be the absolute minimum to every suburban station - simple, clockface timetables and as close to turn up and go as you can get for reasonable outlay (i.e. a 5min headway would double the number of services required)
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
I agree with drwaddles.  There isn't any point in the shuttles.  Outside of peak, just increase city circle-Airport-East Hills-Campbelltown to 4/hr.  That'd give 8/hr Airport full time assuming reasonable service increases peak.  Let's truncate Campbelltown via Granville at Glenfield while we're at it.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
the point of tehs huttle is because people are complaining about how the trains are full and people needinbg to get to and from the airport cannot get their luggage and stuff to be fitted. the shutle is supposed to fix that with 5 tph to create something like airtrain in birbane wher there is dedicated rollingstock for airport trains. although with taxis and all thos hotel shuttles this does seen to be unneccessary. we could extend to revsby and make it an all stoppers and 6tph as you suggested. that will work, currently no conflicts there as i've timetabled 4tph as campbelltown express and that leaves another 16tph as revsby all stoppers.

please note: i am assuming all lines have 20tph capacity and metros to have 30tph.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I agree with drwaddles.  There isn't any point in the shuttles.  Outside of peak, just increase city circle-Airport-East Hills-Campbelltown to 4/hr.  That'd give 8/hr Airport full time assuming reasonable service increases peak.  Let's truncate Campbelltown via Granville at Glenfield while we're at it.
"simonl"


I agree with both simonl and drwaddles.

Is it possible to access the outer fast tracks to Revesby from the Airport line?
  drwaddles In need of a breath mint

Location: Newcastle
the point of tehs huttle is because people are complaining about how the trains are full and people needinbg to get to and from the airport cannot get their luggage and stuff to be fitted. the shutle is supposed to fix that with 5 tph to create something like airtrain in birbane wher there is dedicated rollingstock for airport trains.
"fixitguy"

I figured this was where you were coming from.


However, the fatal flaw is that the 5tph will be running amongst other services - i.e. nobody is going to let a service pass by just to wait for a specialised service. Given those circumstances you may as well just run them as Revesby locals. 

  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

I thought the price when cancelled was $190m.  It's a fairly cheap upgrade - isn't the space already reserved?
"simonl"


It's not as easy as you might think. The physical space inside the corridor is there along the full length, however there's the following big works still required:

- finish the 'tunnel' under Princes Highway
- new bridge over Coulson Street
- new bridge over Mcdonald Street
- new bridge over Victoria Street
- new two-track tunnel under Erskineville Road
- earthworks north of St Peters along the full length
- appropriate connections into the mess of tracks at Macdonaldtown (whatever that may be)

All this being done next to live lines as well - I would not expect change from $1b the way that rail projects are costed these days.
"drwaddles"


the price is high. with campbell town express dumped and going va the airport that could be worth some merit in saving 1billion dollars.
what we need is a
-airport shuttle service to central. persumbly from wolli creek to sydney terminal via the 4 airport line stops. (5tph all day with (train every 12 min) the other 15tph reserved for east hills servies)
-metro services to bondi junction as well as the existing govt plan
-express services to compliment metro services for people south of penshurst into the city so they get there faster. ( hurstville, wolli creek, sydnham, ESR)
-services that terminate at hurstville and turn back to penshurst to improve frequency for people in the south who can then join the metro

this should mean that there would only be 2 stopping patterns north of Hurstville.
-all stations metro
-express illawarra (services pattern as stated above) + campbelltown express services (sydnham, city circle)
-4tph express illawarra and 4tph campbelltown express making 8 trains per hour (a train every 7.5 minute) and
-for metro 30tph+(train every 2 minutes). 14 from hurstville and 15 from bankstown (train every 4 min before sydnham and a train every 2 min after sydnham).

this should in theory not need the sextup.

this is my argument against the scrapping of campbelltown express services via sydnham as proposed by stupid girl. campbelltown express can be done under my plan and it is indeed faster than airport services and will provide a faster way into the city for those passengers
"fixitguy"

The obvious problem is violation of sectorization.
Mixing Campbelltown services with Illawarra Line express will induce unnecessary conflicts.

Also, what's the incentive for passengers to wait for the 4tph via Sydenhem when those via Wolli Creek are just 2 minutes longer?
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

Is it possible to access the outer fast tracks to Revesby from the Airport line?
"Watson374"

Definitely.

In the pre-2004 timetable, selected Campbelltown services ran express between Revesby and Wolli Creek utilizing outer tracks.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Is it possible to access the outer fast tracks to Revesby from the Airport line?
"Watson374"

Probably requires negotiating a slow 25km/h set of points, and I expect that is a factor in SG's 2 minute saved via Sydenham too.

Just as importantly, a quad to Kingsgrove is not enough to allow overtaking a train in front.  It would only allow overtaking of a Kingsgrove terminator.
  jaseee Chief Train Controller

The points on the East Hills line at Turella are nice, fast ones (70km/h I think?). They go both ways. Pre-2005, there were trains that used to come from East Hills, travel via the inner lines and then cross over to go via Sydenham. The vice versa was also the case.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara

The obvious problem is violation of sectorization.
Mixing Campbelltown services with Illawarra Line express will induce unnecessary conflicts.

Also, what's the incentive for passengers to wait for the 4tph via Sydenhem when those via Wolli Creek are just 2 minutes longer?
"stupid_girl"


when theres only 4tph via sydnham and 4tph via illawarra. sectorisation is not a big problem. there is a quad there for the benefit of trains breaking down. when trains do break down illawarra trains can access the metro tracks and campbelltown can go via airport. in rare cases illawarra express trains would not run and just turn back at hurstville like the rest of the services or wolli creek.

also since metro is timetableless it doesn't matter if the metro comes 10min late because of the illawarra service that has had to use their tracks. its still a turn up and go service if its a 12min wait.

the incentive is for people at campbelltown and those between campbelltown and revsby who dont have to endure all stops after revsby. is much faster than revsby all stoppers. campbeltown express stays.

end of story.
  drwaddles In need of a breath mint

Location: Newcastle
also since metro is timetableless it doesn't matter if the metro comes 10min late because of the illawarra service that has had to use their tracks. its still a turn up and go service if its a 12min wait.
"fixitguy"


You obviously don't understand how public transport works. 'Timetableless' does not mean 'turns up whenever it wants to'. it does matter when you're expecting a train every 12 minutes and one doesn't arrive for over 20 minutes. 

12 minutes is borderline turn up and go and it is certainly not a good frequency. 10 minutes is so much better for so many reasons, not least of which because it is a simple clockface, memory timetable. 

the incentive is for people at campbelltown and those between campbelltown and revsby who dont have to endure all stops after revsby. is much faster than revsby all stoppers. campbeltown express stays.
"fixitguy"


No-one has suggested getting rid of the Campbelltown express. The question is whether it goes via Sydenham or Airport.

end of story.
"fixitguy"


Rolling Eyes

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