Revesby quadruplication construction progress

 
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.

Interesting.

The question arises as to how this capacity will be utilised. I think everyone from Macarthur to Revesby will benefit, but these expresses won't stop at Padstow, Riverwood or Kingsgrove, so what happens there will be interesting.

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  drwaddles In need of a breath mint

Location: Newcastle

While in the peak, they are also express services for Liverpool people (change at Glenfield), who do nothing but occupy the seats of Macarthur-Panania residents for the greater half of the total trip on some of the most busiest peak hour services.
"boxythingy"


Macarthur-Panania residents down own any seats on the train.

  clrks Locomotive Fireman




Interesting.

The question arises as to how this capacity will be utilised. I think everyone from Macarthur to Revesby will benefit, but these expresses won't stop at Padstow, Riverwood or Kingsgrove, so what happens there will be interesting.

"Watson374"


How busy are those three stations? With appropriate timetabling, it might be possible to backtrack for Padstow and Riverwood, but I doubt that would be done.

  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.

Interesting.


The question arises as to how this capacity will be utilised. I think everyone from Macarthur to Revesby will benefit, but these expresses won't stop at Padstow, Riverwood or Kingsgrove, so what happens there will be interesting.
"Watson374"



How busy are those three stations? With appropriate timetabling, it might be possible to backtrack for Padstow and Riverwood, but I doubt that would be done.
"clrks"



Of the stations between Revesby and Sydenham/Wolli Creek, all of which are skipped by the K2RQ express tracks, those three are the busiest according to patronage statistics I was given. I'm not too sure about how reliable these statistics are, however, and I'm treating them as a rough guide only.

I suppose it might be possible to timetable services such that down locals arrive at Revesby to connect to up expresses in AM peak and vice versa in PM peak, but the scheduling is likely to be painful to prepare, and the connections may be shaky. It's also restricted in usefulness as only one of the two local platforms will be able to provide cross-platform interchange in each peak.

A more satisfactory idea arises. I'm going to put forth the idea that if full expresses are run (i.e. first stop Revesby) we could see an end to all-stops services to Revesby. Instead, I offer the idea of a series of limited-stops trains to Revesby via Airport (and expresses to Macarthur via Sydenham), at least in peak.

Think about it. Currently, limited-stops trains via Airport skip Turella, Bardwell Park, Bexley North, Beverly Hills and Narwee. Having a train stopping at Wolli Creek, Kingsgrove, Riverwood, Padstow and Revesby with a stopper behind might not be the best idea, but it's possible to split the difference - half the stops go to one pattern, and the other half go to the other.

Beverly Hills is, according to these statistics I have, the most heavily-patronised of the five normally skipped, so I'll add it to both. Therefore, Turella/Bardwell Park and Bexley North/Narwee give us the split patterns. They should have the same run times, which would make scheduling much easier.

Food for thought.

  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner










It should also be long enough to finally allow proper overtaking moves.

"Watson374"


Is that allowed Wink
For anyone heading into C/town it's the Macas turnback that will probably yield the greatest time saving. One day Rolling Eyes
"cootanee"

Macarthur turnback will allow those Campbelltown starters/terminators to be extended to Macarthur but it is not going to yield any time saving.

"stupid_girl"


If it helps reliability you'll get more consistent travel times. Too often evening peak trains crawl from Minto then sit outside Campbelltown (we are waiting for the signal) because it takes soooooo long to clear the platform. Time lost negating any savings a K2R2 might deliver. They might also get rid of the two minute C/t layover with Macas simpler to manage trains into and out of.

"cootanee"

I don't see any reason why a Macarthr turnback can change the signal outside Campbelltown.

  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner




The Turnback will bring back the a more sensible frequency of at least 4 trains per hour instead of 1 train every 30min. Will certainly eliminate the need to wait longer, catch the bus instead OR even just drive.

"boxythingy"

If you have a look at the timetable, 4tph is already achievable using existing infrastructure.

  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner








...more sensible frequency of at least 4 trains per hour instead of 1 train every 30min.

"boxythingy"


Is an off-peak frequency of 4tph necessary to justify the patronage from the south/south-west?

"victorwilson"

Well it will appear that the K2RQ is trying to achieve this? Am I wrong?

"boxythingy"

Off-peak frequency for Macarthur can be doubled, tripled or even quadrupled without any new infrastructure.
K2RQ is not trying to achieve this.

  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner




4 trains per hour for the Airport line is already provided in the Off-Peak from the Revesby stop-starters. What would be nice after all of this is finished, is the ability to be able to get on a train at my home station at Panania in the morning and be able to get into the carriage. Since the locals now terminate at Revesby, instead of East Hills, it is almost impossible to stand in the trains from either East Hills or Panania from 6AM to 8:30AM.

"babbatt"

Why would K2RQ affect your likelihood of getting on a train at Panania in the morning?

If you are looking for extra services, it is perfectly achievable without K2RQ and the number of extra services will be ultimately constrained by the City Circle capacity rather than the Kingsgrove-Revesby capacity.

  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner




Interesting.


The question arises as to how this capacity will be utilised. I think everyone from Macarthur to Revesby will benefit, but these expresses won't stop at Padstow, Riverwood or Kingsgrove, so what happens there will be interesting.
"Watson374"



How busy are those three stations? With appropriate timetabling, it might be possible to backtrack for Padstow and Riverwood, but I doubt that would be done.
"clrks"



Of the stations between Revesby and Sydenham/Wolli Creek, all of which are skipped by the K2RQ express tracks, those three are the busiest according to patronage statistics I was given. I'm not too sure about how reliable these statistics are, however, and I'm treating them as a rough guide only.

I suppose it might be possible to timetable services such that down locals arrive at Revesby to connect to up expresses in AM peak and vice versa in PM peak, but the scheduling is likely to be painful to prepare, and the connections may be shaky. It's also restricted in usefulness as only one of the two local platforms will be able to provide cross-platform interchange in each peak.

A more satisfactory idea arises. I'm going to put forth the idea that if full expresses are run (i.e. first stop Revesby) we could see an end to all-stops services to Revesby. Instead, I offer the idea of a series of limited-stops trains to Revesby via Airport (and expresses to Macarthur via Sydenham), at least in peak.

Think about it. Currently, limited-stops trains via Airport skip Turella, Bardwell Park, Bexley North, Beverly Hills and Narwee. Having a train stopping at Wolli Creek, Kingsgrove, Riverwood, Padstow and Revesby with a stopper behind might not be the best idea, but it's possible to split the difference - half the stops go to one pattern, and the other half go to the other.

Beverly Hills is, according to these statistics I have, the most heavily-patronised of the five normally skipped, so I'll add it to both. Therefore, Turella/Bardwell Park and Bexley North/Narwee give us the split patterns. They should have the same run times, which would make scheduling much easier.

Food for thought.

"Watson374"

Then, you need 8 Revesby starters to provide sufficient frequency for the minor stations.

Please remember that additional Revesby starters will constrain the ultimate capacity for Campbelltown express.

City Circle can accommodate a maximum of 20tph.
Assume that 4tph will be reserved for Bankstown.
If 8tph are Revesby starters, then you can at most get 8tph for Campbelltown services.

It is possible to send Bankstown services to the other side of City Circle but it will instead constrain the number of South Line services.

In any case, I don't think Revesby starters should exceed 4tph. Otherwise, it will limit the room for growth of other Sector 2 services.

  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
Just o interrupt the timetabling banter....  New style speed signs have arrived over the past week on the new track. On the up express tracks just past revesby, three speeds are 95, 115 and 125. On yellow, blue and white backgrounds respectively. Current speed signs only have two classificatios, so how dow these map now? Are the express trains now alllowed to do 125kph? I haven't noticed a limit that high on the network for years and I thought even the waratahs are only certified for 115. Enlightenment sought please!
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.

Then, you need 8 Revesby starters to provide sufficient frequency for the minor stations.


Please remember that additional Revesby starters will constrain the ultimate capacity for Campbelltown express.

City Circle can accommodate a maximum of 20tph.
Assume that 4tph will be reserved for Bankstown.
If 8tph are Revesby starters, then you can at most get 8tph for Campbelltown services.
"stupid_girl"



Less so in AM peak. If you route 4tph up Bankstown to run the other way around the Circle and 4tph up East Hills to run the around inner Circle and then into Macdonaldtown yard, you can squeeze out 24tph total on the right side of the Circle. This gives you 8tph Bankstown, 8-12tph Airport and 4-8tph East Hills. (This exploits the Airport line diverging before the flying junctions.)


It is possible to send Bankstown services to the other side of City Circle but it will instead constrain the number of South Line services.
"stupid_girl"


Operations on the left side of the Circle are limited to 16tph anyway, because they're constrained by the need to space trains out so the South services can skip stops. This unused 4tph can be passed to up Bankstown services, netting a 20/20 use of the Circle, and providing a 16/24 split of service.


In any case, I don't think Revesby starters should exceed 4tph. Otherwise, it will limit the room for growth of other Sector 2 services.
"stupid_girl"



Such as?

  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned










...more sensible frequency of at least 4 trains per hour instead of 1 train every 30min.

"boxythingy"


Is an off-peak frequency of 4tph necessary to justify the patronage from the south/south-west?

"victorwilson"

Well it will appear that the K2RQ is trying to achieve this? Am I wrong?

"boxythingy"

Off-peak frequency for Macarthur can be doubled, tripled or even quadrupled without any new infrastructure.
K2RQ is not trying to achieve this.

"stupid_girl"


As I've been told before.

  babbatt Station Master






4 trains per hour for the Airport line is already provided in the Off-Peak from the Revesby stop-starters. What would be nice after all of this is finished, is the ability to be able to get on a train at my home station at Panania in the morning and be able to get into the carriage. Since the locals now terminate at Revesby, instead of East Hills, it is almost impossible to stand in the trains from either East Hills or Panania from 6AM to 8:30AM.

"babbatt"

Why would K2RQ affect your likelihood of getting on a train at Panania in the morning?

If you are looking for extra services, it is perfectly achievable without K2RQ and the number of extra services will be ultimately constrained by the City Circle capacity rather than the Kingsgrove-Revesby capacity.

"stupid_girl"


K2RQ isn't going to fix all the woes and such on the East Hills Line (and there aren't that many to begin with). It is being built to add capacity to the network before it is overdue. Much like the original construction of the East Hills line, IMHO it was 20-30 years ahead of its time.  
as for getting a train at Panania post K2RQ - that wont really change too much until the SWRL is completed, And by then, it will be most beneficial to have a extra tracks to pass the slower locals.

  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW



Just o interrupt the timetabling banter.... New style speed signs have arrived over the past week on the new track. On the up express tracks just past revesby, three speeds are 95, 115 and 125. On yellow, blue and white backgrounds respectively. Current speed signs only have two classificatios, so how dow these map now? Are the express trains now alllowed to do 125kph? I haven't noticed a limit that high on the network for years and I thought even the waratahs are only certified for 115. Enlightenment sought please!

"jcouch"


The new speed signs are erected periodically on all lines for the benefit of drivers to provide feedback (sighting, location, etc), hence the cross through the number.

Under the old speed boards, yellow was "all trains". Where a white board is provided, XPT, Xplorer, Endeavour etc trains may do up to the white speedboard. When a "MU" designation is placed after the number on the white speedboard, ALL multiple unit trains (Anything from S Sets to Waratahs) may ALSO do the white speedboard.

The new speedboards are very similar. As usual, yellow is all-traffic. White remains XPT/Xplorer/etc only. The new blue speedboards are for suburban and interurban electric rolling stock. Thus, at the speedboard you mentioned, a "normal train" has a maximum speed of 95, an S Set or a Waratah may do 115, and an XPT may do 125km/h. Obviously if only yellow and white boards of the new style are provided, electric trains follow the yellow boards.

The new style of speedboards were recently (last few months) implemented on the South Line between Granville and Cabramatta, and before that on the Northern Line. I can't speak for interurban lines as I don't often ride trains outside of the suburban area.

  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner








4 trains per hour for the Airport line is already provided in the Off-Peak from the Revesby stop-starters. What would be nice after all of this is finished, is the ability to be able to get on a train at my home station at Panania in the morning and be able to get into the carriage. Since the locals now terminate at Revesby, instead of East Hills, it is almost impossible to stand in the trains from either East Hills or Panania from 6AM to 8:30AM.

"babbatt"

Why would K2RQ affect your likelihood of getting on a train at Panania in the morning?

If you are looking for extra services, it is perfectly achievable without K2RQ and the number of extra services will be ultimately constrained by the City Circle capacity rather than the Kingsgrove-Revesby capacity.

"stupid_girl"


K2RQ isn't going to fix all the woes and such on the East Hills Line (and there aren't that many to begin with). It is being built to add capacity to the network before it is overdue. Much like the original construction of the East Hills line, IMHO it was 20-30 years ahead of its time.
as for getting a train at Panania post K2RQ - that wont really change too much until the SWRL is completed, And by then, it will be most beneficial to have a extra tracks to pass the slower locals.
"babbatt"

K2RQ does NOT add any capacity to the network as the number East Hill Line trains is still constrained by the City Circle.

If someone proposes to widen M7 motorway to 4 lanes each way, will it solve the CBD congestion? No!

  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train

Thanks Raichase.

New signs are up all the way from Cmpbelltown through East Hills line and into the city.

  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!











It should also be long enough to finally allow proper overtaking moves.

"Watson374"


Is that allowed Wink
For anyone heading into C/town it's the Macas turnback that will probably yield the greatest time saving. One day Rolling Eyes
"cootanee"

Macarthur turnback will allow those Campbelltown starters/terminators to be extended to Macarthur but it is not going to yield any time saving.

"stupid_girl"


If it helps reliability you'll get more consistent travel times. Too often evening peak trains crawl from Minto then sit outside Campbelltown (we are waiting for the signal) because it takes soooooo long to clear the platform. Time lost negating any savings a K2R2 might deliver. They might also get rid of the two minute C/t layover with Macas simpler to manage trains into and out of.

"cootanee"

I don't see any reason why a Macarthr turnback can change the signal outside Campbelltown.

"stupid_girl"


Shambles becomes that whenever they have any delay in getting a train across to terminate on platform 1 or 2 or get one out of 3 to the yard - the delays just cascade. Having  more terminate at Macas - managed properly - eliminates those delays. At least the SSFL removes one element of potential conflict/delay.

  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW



New signs are up all the way from Cmpbelltown through East Hills line and into the city.

"jcouch"


The signs between Campbelltown and Glenfield were erected a lot earlier however - I guess the covers have finally been taken off?

  Oldfart Chief Commissioner

Location: Right base for BK 11R
It's a few years ago now (when Erskineville sextup was still the go), but I recall one poster indicating the intent was for Bankstown and Campbelltown Express (ex-MacA stopping all to Glenfield, then Revesby, then Sydenham) ) services to alternate through the City Circle. Leppington starters were to pick up until Revesby, then run via the airport like current limited stops services. Revesby starters were to do the all stops via the airport. Hope that confuses it even more.
  jaseee Chief Train Controller


I reckon they will send more trains via the Airport line. There's not that much difference between going via the Airport vs. Sydenham.

I would have stopping patterns in peak hour such as:
1. Macarthur, all to Revesby, Sydenham, Redfern, Central, CC via Museum.
2. Macarthur, limited stops to Glenfield, Wolli Ck, CC via Airport and Museum. (this would become the new express train)
3. Revesby, all to Wolli Ck, CC via Airport and Museum.

That way you have 3 simplified stopping patterns. It would also help spread the load of the trains from Macarthur and leave some more room on the train for pattern #1 for people at Holsworthy, East Hills and Panania.

  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I suspect fast trains running on the outer tracks will run via Sydenham and semi-fast and stopping trains running on the inner tracks will run via Airport.
  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The fast services have to run via Sydenham otherwise they end up being stuck behind a slower service running via Airport since you only have the one track each way.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.

The fast services have to run via Sydenham otherwise they end up being stuck behind a slower service running via Airport since you only have the one track each way.
"Aurora8"


Running all expresses via Sydenham and all semi-fasts and stoppers via Airport also removes any merging/diverging movements at Turella, extending the separation to between Central and Revesby, which should prove interesting and very exploitable.

  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry

This is my guess what will happen:
1. Macarthur, Campbelltown, Glenfield, Holsworthy, Revesby, Sydenham, Redfern, City and return. (peak only)
2.Macarthur, all to Revesby, Sydenham, Redfern, City and return
3.Macarthur, Campbelltown/Leppington, all to Riverwood, Kingsgrove, Wolli Creek, all to City via Airport and return
4.Revesby, all to city via airport and return.

Southern Highlands services (and Countrylink IMO) will/should also use the express tracks AFAIK. Will freight use the tracks when the SSFL is closed for periodic maintenance?

  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW

So instead of discussing updates (what's that, there are none? Funny that, perhaps nothing should be said), we're going to engage in a guessing game as to stopping patterns? I think all trains will stop at all stations, except those that don't. What do I win?

Seriously though, to answer bowralcommuter's question, I imagine the same setup would apply in the future as does now - when the freight trains cannot use the SSFL, they will find alternate access. If RailCorp have closed sections of the Main South Line between Glenfield and Sefton Park Junctions, then I'd suggest that freight will instead use the East Hills Line, likely running along the mains. I'd suggest that you're right in your assumption that Southern CountryLink/CityRail services will use the "fast" tracks, considering they do so already between Kingsgrove and Turrella. Of course, CountryLink trains still run via Strathfield, so would only use the East Hills Line when required by trackwork.

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