Petition - save the Hitachis

 
  mattylovestrains Train Controller

I understand there are a lot of users here who like Hitachis.

One of the users on Vicsig started a petition (which I signed) to save the Hitachis, rather than withdrawing them.

http://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/save-the-hitachi-trains-not-to-take-them-out-of-service

It would be much appreciated if the petition has as many signatures as possible.

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  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Each to their own opinions.

It's way past time these super-annuated, track-smashing and non air-conditioned heavyweights were retired.  I have no objection whatsoever to a set being retained for historical reasons but have long since tried to avoid riding them when they turn up in service.  The wait of usually no more than 10 minutes for the next train ensures a more comfortable ride in all respects.  

That's my 10c worth.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Each to their own opinions.

It's way past time these super-annuated, track-smashing and non air-conditioned heavyweights were retired.  I have no objection whatsoever to a set being retained for historical reasons but have long since tried to avoid riding them when they turn up in service.  The wait of usually no more than 10 minutes for the next train ensures a more comfortable ride in all respects.  

That's my 10c worth.
"Gwiwer"
I would like to donate my own 10c to your cup, sir.
  Westernport Assistant Commissioner

Location: Not In Service
Retire the damn things. There's a place for heritage trains, and revenue service is not one of them.

There's enough trains in the fleet to allow them to be withdrawn from service without causing major implications to the timetable.

The spare parts pool for these rust buckets must be running pretty low by now, so their demise is inevitable.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I understand there are a lot of users here who like Hitachis.

One of the users on Vicsig started a petition (which I signed) to save the Hitachis, rather than withdrawing them.

http//www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/save-the-hitachi-trains-not-to-take-them-out-of-service#

It would be much appreciated if the petition has as many signatures as possible.
mattylovestrains
I personally don't think they should be kept in regular service due to them being too old and, as Westernport said, spare parts being too scarce. That said though, I would like them to be preserved rather than scrapped.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
One set is already assigned to Electrail (a division of SRV as I understand it) and will return to their care once out of traffic for preservation.  Whether it is permitted to make any further runs over the network after the rest are withdrawn remains to be seen.
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
I understand there are a lot of users here who like Hitachis.

One of the users on Vicsig started a petition (which I signed) to save the Hitachis, rather than withdrawing them.

http//www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/save-the-hitachi-trains-not-to-take-them-out-of-service#

It would be much appreciated if the petition has as many signatures as possible.
mattylovestrains
Just saw this post linked in another thread on Railpage, you need to fix up the link, you're missing the : in http://www

http://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/save-the-hitachi-trains-not-to-take-them-out-of-service

I agree though, we do need to save the Hitachis. We can't have the remainder chopped up for the sake of getting rid of them.

Plus, the cynical side of me wants to say the next person that purchases them could sell them back to the operator again if they find they're short of rollingstock yet again... Laughing

Wolfpac
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Your Hitachi's are junk, if the operator is prepared to buy air conditioned sets why would they keep 40 year old clapped out suburban sets for historical reasons?
Because the windows open?
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
Your Hitachi's are junk, if the operator is prepared to buy air conditioned sets why would they keep 40 year old clapped out suburban sets for historical reasons?
Because the windows open?
Junction box
Can't be too junky if they're still running, nor clapped out... Wink

And why not, if they still run and can earn money, may as well use them.

Wolfpac
  Westernport Assistant Commissioner

Location: Not In Service
Can't be too junky if they're still running, nor clapped out... Wink

And why not, if they still run and can earn money, may as well use them.

Wolfpac
wolfpac
Three from seven of them are still running, which means more than half are clapped out otherwise they'd be running.

And I'd question how much it costs Metro to run and maintain the Hitachi trains against newer rolling stock; and whether or not it's near profitable.
  mattylovestrains Train Controller

Just saw this post linked in another thread on Railpage, you need to fix up the link, you're missing the in http//www

http//www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/save-the-hitachi-trains-not-to-take-them-out-of-service

I agree though, we do need to save the Hitachis. We can't have the remainder chopped up for the sake of getting rid of them.

Plus, the cynical side of me wants to say the next person that purchases them could sell them back to the operator again if they find they're short of rollingstock yet again... lol

Wolfpac
wolfpac
That's a relief. At least someone agrees with me.

People who hate Hitachis can always wait for the next service. If they're gone, there's nothing the people who like hitachis can do about it.
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
Three from seven of them are still running, which means more than half are clapped out otherwise they'd be running.

And I'd question how much it costs Metro to run and maintain the Hitachi trains against newer rolling stock; and whether or not it's near profitable.
Westernport
Good point, I didn't realise quite so many were out of service (although I did see a photo of 4 sets lined up side by side a while ago?).

They're certainly orphans in the fleet, I wonder if they're any 'easier' to maintain being so old, as in, less 'tech' built into them - as such.

Wolfpac
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Three six-car (3+3) trains are still running from the original fleet of 59 (originally 4 car + 2-car units).  That puts it more in context.  The majority went to Sims Metals some years ago and many more were sold on (usually as bodies only) for use as sheds.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Your Hitachi's are junk, if the operator is prepared to buy air conditioned sets why would they keep 40 year old clapped out suburban sets for historical reasons?
Because the windows open?
"Junction box"
Your beloved Murwillumbah line is junk, too; the NSW government is prepared to improve regional coach services to much greater effect (and much less cost), so why would you insist on blowing 900 million dollars to revive a clapped out line past its use-by date? Because it has wooden bridges?

People who hate Hitachis can always wait for the next service. If they're gone, there's nothing the people who like hitachis can do about it.
"mattylovestrains"
It's not about who likes what. This is an operationally-motivated decision, not one based on gunzel sentimentality. While it is certainly important to preserve some as historical pieces, keeping a minute, orphan fleet (as opposed to running modern trains which happen to be of a fleet of scores) in revenue service flies in the face of sound business logic, which is why we believe it should not happen.
  kg3000 Locomotive Driver

Your beloved Murwillumbah line is junk, too; the NSW government is prepared to improve regional coach services to much greater effect (and much less cost), so why would you insist on blowing 900 million dollars to revive a clapped out line past its use-by date? Because it has wooden bridges?

It's not about who likes what. This is an operationally-motivated decision, not one based on gunzel sentimentality. While it is certainly important to preserve some as historical pieces, keeping a minute, orphan fleet (as opposed to running modern trains which happen to be of a fleet of scores) in revenue service flies in the face of sound business logic, which is why we believe it should not happen.
Watson374
Let's also not forget the fact the 4D train was neglected and not serviced well enough so it simply broke down all the time... melb could have cityrail fleet + wider wheelbase if they weren't so daft with their maintenance... the change of operators doesn't help either.
  kg3000 Locomotive Driver

Let's also not forget the fact the 4D train was neglected and not serviced well enough so it simply broke down all the time... melb could have cityrail fleet + wider wheelbase if they weren't so daft with their maintenance... the change of operators doesn't help either.
kg3000
oh and Myki.. sure CityRail might be taking ages to get OPAL up but hey.. at least it's based on a system that works, not one that has machines that fall to bits lol.
  mattylovestrains Train Controller

Also, if people complain about Hitachis because they have no air-conditioning, why don't they also complain about the trams that don't have air-conditioning? In fact, they want our Hitachis gone but they want to keep the W-class trams.? At least riding a Hitachi with windows open at 115km/h feels as if there is air-conditioning, because of how fast it goes.

People who hate Hitachis also need to consider that there are people who like Hitachis.

Another thing, the major complaint about the Hitachis is, they have no air-conditioning. In Summer, yes, that's a problem. In Winter on a 15 degree day, who cares? If it's cold, no one needs air-conditioning. So it would be a good idea to store them when the temperature exceeds 30 degrees, but run them at all other times.

It's still better to get a train with no air-conditioning than to find out your train has been cancelled.

To those who posted here saying that you want the Hitachis to be withdrawn. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I can't, no one can force you to like the Hitachis. If you don't like them, you don't have to sign the petition. I posted it here for the people who do like them (like me).
  Taitset Chief Commissioner

Location: Eltham, (former) vintage safeworking capital of Melbourne
To those who posted here saying that you want the Hitachis to be withdrawn. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I can't, no one can force you to like the Hitachis.
mattylovestrains
...You're still totally missing the point. Most people don't want them withdrawn because 'they hate them,' it's just because they've reached the end of their service life. If they'd been properly refurbished around 10 years ago it might have been a different story, but that didn't happen.

I like them, and I think it's time to withdraw them too.


One set is already assigned to Electrail (a division of SRV as I understand it) and will return to their care once out of traffic for preservation.  Whether it is permitted to make any further runs over the network after the rest are withdrawn remains to be seen.
Gwiwer

Gwiwer is correct, Elecrail (that's how it's actually spelt) has several cars saved for preservation, so the Hitachi sets are by no means going to disappear forever.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Also, if people complain about Hitachis because they have no air-conditioning, why don't they also complain about the trams that don't have air-conditioning? In fact, they want our Hitachis gone but they want to keep the W-class trams.? At least riding a Hitachi with windows open at 115km/h feels as if there is air-conditioning, because of how fast it goes.

People who hate Hitachis also need to consider that there are people who like Hitachis.

Another thing, the major complaint about the Hitachis is, they have no air-conditioning. In Summer, yes, that's a problem. In Winter on a 15 degree day, who cares? If it's cold, no one needs air-conditioning. So it would be a good idea to store them when the temperature exceeds 30 degrees, but run them at all other times.

It's still better to get a train with no air-conditioning than to find out your train has been cancelled.

To those who posted here saying that you want the Hitachis to be withdrawn. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I can't, no one can force you to like the Hitachis. If you don't like them, you don't have to sign the petition. I posted it here for the people who do like them (like me).
mattylovestrains
Air con can be be turned to heat, do Hitachi's have heaters for winter?
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
Also, if people complain about Hitachis because they have no air-conditioning, why don't they also complain about the trams that don't have air-conditioning? In fact, they want our Hitachis gone but they want to keep the W-class trams.?
mattylovestrains
People do complain about trams with no air conditioning. Hence why the Z fleet is being phased out and W class trams only being posted on tourist runs

People who hate Hitachis also need to consider that there are people who like Hitachis.
mattylovestrains


I like red rattlers too. Do you suggest we revive these as well? No.

Another thing, the major complaint about the Hitachis is, they have no air-conditioning. In Summer, yes, that's a problem. In Winter on a 15 degree day, who cares? If it's cold, no one needs air-conditioning. So it would be a good idea to store them when the temperature exceeds 30 degrees, but run them at all other times.
mattylovestrains

And how much does it cost to keep them working when they are not being used regardless?


It's still better to get a train with no air-conditioning than to find out your train has been cancelled.
mattylovestrains


Hence why I would rather that we had newer rolling stock and NOT relied on the hitachi fleet and have both (because if a hitachi was scheduled for the run, it would probably be cancelled)


To those who posted here saying that you want the Hitachis to be withdrawn. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I can't, no one can force you to like the Hitachis. If you don't like them, you don't have to sign the petition. I posted it here for the people who do like them (like me).
mattylovestrains

But your sentiment is demanding the taxes and fares that we pay to be funneled towards your own personal sentiment, let alone the limited resources available in the public transport sector. If it's cheaper to just buy 3 new trains and phase out the remaining hitachis in a one to one replacement, then so be it.
  GvhftrKijl Locomotive Driver

Location: ERD
To those who posted here saying that you want the Hitachis to be withdrawn. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
mattylovestrains

As a Driver, I have a love/hate relationship with the Hitachi. Because there are so few of them around, I have hardly prepared one for revenue service. I get apprehensive when I see one roll up for me to drive, but do get immersed in the experience and get into a groove eventually with driving them (to the point that I'm a little sorry to have to hand it to the next Driver). Plus they have the best (Driver) air-conditioning of any train in the Metro fleet, they brake pretty well, and the seating (both driver and passenger) is pretty comfortable.

Opinion.

Hitachis are past their use-by date.

Fact.

They are forty years old and are showing their age - an embarrasment to Melbourne.
They have no CCTV.
They have no passenger emergency intercom.
They have no data recording/vigilance equipment (i.e. VICERS).
Parts for them are becoming far and few in-between
In the present day, no aircon is a big minus to the travelling public, irrespective of whether the windows can be opened or not.
Following on rom the above, having windows that can be opened is just asking for trouble when some feral loses a limb from sticking it out the window and goes crying to some lawyer who can only see dollar signs by taking on Metro/VicGov.
  Mitty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Hawthorn
I love riding a Hitachi.  Even on a hot day.  But then I'm lucky in that my normal commute is only about ten minutes so it's not going to kill me.  Someone who has to go all the way to Frankston from the city may see it differently.  

While they are useful and aren't costing more than the newer Stock to maintain, I see no problem in keeping them running when needed and when appropriate.  But if they are starting to cost money to maintain or are constantly breaking down and out of service, or if parts become difficult to source, then it's time to retire them.  Yes, one or two sets might get kept for historical purposes but there's certainly no need to keep the lot of them we have left.

And I would imagine that the opinions of a few gunzels is going to play no part when a decision is eventually made about whether to spend more money to keep them running or consign them to the scrapheap.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
The Hitachis were not the most popular train when new. I am a little disappointed that little was done to save/restore a Harris set.
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
I remember when they were first introduced on the Hurstbridge line - everyone thought they were wonderful compared to the old red Tait and blue Harris sets.

40 years on, they're scruffy and non airconditioned. By all means, preserve one set for heritage purposes if anyone can be bothered.
They are purely functional units and it is hard to imagine any reason why they could ever be used for heritage operations - in comparison to the Edwardian splendour of a Tait.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
With only three sets in occasional use many drivers would also not handle one for months at a time which leads to unfamiliarity and - as noted above - sometimes a little apprehension.  Drivers are required to be familiar with all trains they drive and all routes so at that level it makes sense to remove the last few as soon as possible.  

The cab air-con is relatively new having only been fitted upon refurbishment in the past few years to the last remaining sets.  They don't have passenger air-con and while they do have heaters their effectiveness is minimal.  Most passengers making a short commute (as for example Mitty's 10 minutes) are little-bothered by the interior environment but with the sets running to places 75 minutes or more from the City and indeed on the cross-city Werribee - Frankston axis around 2 hours end to end it is passengers on those runs who are either baked or frozen and have been for some 40 years in those sets.

During my commuting days there were some older folk who mourned the passing of the red rattlers / blue trains and even swing-doors all of which they alleged were at least better ventilated if not heated.  When possible a significant number of regulars would avoid a Hitachi and wait for the next train hoping for a Comeng and - in recent years - they preferred the improved comfort of a Siemens.  A Hitachi hacking down the fast track express from Caulfield to Cheltenham bounces alarmingly and some even bottomed out on the suspension momentarily.  The track is partly to blame but more recent stock copes far better with such irregularities.

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