North Terrace Tram Upgrade

 
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia
To my mind this is the best option for the Outer Harbor line: trams only and the heavy rail retired.

Considering the Glenelg line gets more patronage than the Outer Harbor line, or so I believe, then the argument that only heavy rail will cut it simply doesn't hold water.

The tram option would bring the Outer Harbor line into the CBD rather than dropping people at the edge.
kipioneer
Not sure about the patronage numbers on the bay tram line, but a few ago they worked out that they needed a tram in to the city every 47 seconds to move the morning peak loading on the OH line.

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  mclaren2007 Assistant Commissioner

Location: recharging my myki
And with the number of level crossings on that line (especially Bowden and Croydon) that would be just crazy. Unless they can do grade separation.
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia
And with the number of level crossings on that line (especially Bowden and Croydon) that would be just crazy. Unless they can do grade separation.
mclaren2007
I understand the logic from the Non rail project people in OMPI is that they can do away with the planned and announced grade separation at Torrens Junction & Park Terrace and use the money for the tram which would continue on just past the Entertainment Centre where it stops now, turn right and connect on to the OH rail line just west of Bowden.

Image all the AM peak trams heading along Port Road & North Terrace and then around in to King William Street at that hour of the morning.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
And with the number of level crossings on that line (especially Bowden and Croydon) that would be just crazy. Unless they can do grade separation.
mclaren2007
Is the number of crossings going to increase, or decrease, or stay the same with light rail than with heavy rail?

Why is it going to make an adverse difference?

(Hint - loose one grade crossing and gain one).
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Image all the AM peak trams heading along Port Road & North Terrace and then around in to King William Street at that hour of the morning.
AFULE

You've not been to Melbourne where you can get line-ups of trams?    The trams will use the existing reserved track controlled by existing traffic signals: the only question is where to conveniently turn them back.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Not sure about the patronage numbers on the bay tram line, but a few ago they worked out that they needed a tram in to the city every 47 seconds to move the morning peak loading on the OH line.
AFULE
And with the number of level crossings on that line (especially Bowden and Croydon) that would be just crazy. Unless they can do grade separation.
mclaren2007


You also have to add in the fact that making public transport worse (taking away trains and shoving them into trams) is not going to encourage people to switch over to using it.

Expanding the tram network would be a better use of money than using it to replace already functional metro rail. The next round of electrification is dead in the water for the time being, they can look at modifying St Clair (recycle the electric-incompatible shelter at a Belair line station or a major bus stop and build a compatible replacement) in another 15-20 years when the 3000/3100 fleet is clapped and it's a good time to replace them with EMUs.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
And with the number of level crossings on that line (especially Bowden and Croydon) that would be just crazy. Unless they can do grade separation.
mclaren2007
There are really no major roads between Bowden and Croydon if the tunnel or whatever gets built on South Road, Park Terrace is the first level crossing and the tram is already over that now so the next major road would be Kilkenny Road and then Woodville Road. There are some other small roads that cross the line between Bowden and Woodville though but most are only access roads for the locals not major highways etc. South Road is again supposed to be removed, so I have not included that here. There would be more tram level crossings on the existing tram line to Glenelg than on this section of track, if it is ever converted.

Also the tram has its own right of way on Port Road just like King William Street South, so trams queuing up are not going to cause real problems for vehicles on the road.
  flexity103 Station Master

Is the crossover near the Adelaide Railway station tram stop going to be east of the stop or west of the stop.
  Tallboy-Lemond Station Master

Not sure what the issue is.

Proposed new Sydney light rail say they can move up to 9000 passengers per direction per hour. From what I've seen of people on outer harbor line there is only two full trains each day, and they only have two carriages, probably 9000 a day not an hour??

My brother lives in the gold coast and he recons the  trams they are getting trams with a capacity of of 300 so about the same capacity as a two or three car set (not sure of sizes). So that would be a tram every two minutes. About the same time a traffic signal phase. How good would that be.


I'm a bit unclear about how a tram could make the outer harbor line worse?

I regularly catch public transport to meetings. I had some time a few days ago so went to catch a train to the station close to the Port ( not actually at the Port) and was greeted with next train in 25 mins. Ended up catching a cab. I don't like cabs.

Never had that issue with catching a tram to Glenelg, and catch it semi regularly.

I'm not sure a 30 min service with the odd expresses in peak is a better service than the Gelnelg tram line. Whilst it takes longer to get from Glenelg to city that the station near the Port to the city,( looking at the timetable)  people have voted with their feet on what is better frequency or two minutes time saving.

Melbourne can magically manage a tram to two without the world ending, they can even put them in a combined street, but here apparently the world will end if we change anything. Maybe the government should start up a counseling service for people who fear change.

I actually have never caught the outer harbor line ( hence my attempt recently). Happy to hear alternate thoughts.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
probably 9000 a day not an hour?
"Tallboy-Lemond"

Well it all depends on whether you count heads or validations...
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Is the crossover near the Adelaide Railway station tram stop going to be east of the stop or west of the stop.
flexity103
My guess would be to the west. With just a pedestrian-activated crossing in the way (compared to a crossing T-junction and a steep hill) that would be a far more convenient way of turning trams back towards the Entertainment Centre during times that King William Street is closed for whatever reason.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Not sure what the issue is.

Proposed new Sydney light rail say they can move up to 9000 passengers per direction per hour. From what I've seen of people on outer harbor line there is only two full trains each day, and they only have two carriages, probably 9000 a day not an hour??

My brother lives in the gold coast and he recons the  trams they are getting trams with a capacity of of 300 so about the same capacity as a two or three car set (not sure of sizes). So that would be a tram every two minutes. About the same time a traffic signal phase. How good would that be.


I'm a bit unclear about how a tram could make the outer harbor line worse?

I regularly catch public transport to meetings. I had some time a few days ago so went to catch a train to the station close to the Port ( not actually at the Port) and was greeted with next train in 25 mins. Ended up catching a cab. I don't like cabs.

Never had that issue with catching a tram to Glenelg, and catch it semi regularly.

I'm not sure a 30 min service with the odd expresses in peak is a better service than the Gelnelg tram line. Whilst it takes longer to get from Glenelg to city that the station near the Port to the city,( looking at the timetable)  people have voted with their feet on what is better frequency or two minutes time saving.

Melbourne can magically manage a tram to two without the world ending, they can even put them in a combined street, but here apparently the world will end if we change anything. Maybe the government should start up a counseling service for people who fear change.

I actually have never caught the outer harbor line ( hence my attempt recently). Happy to hear alternate thoughts.
Tallboy-Lemond
I'm with you an this one.

I thought I would let that point about LRVs not being able to carry the Port Line peak traffic go through to the keeper, there is only so much BS you can handle.

A few people need to go to Melbourne and watch the trams move sporting crowds.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
Not sure what the issue is.

Proposed new Sydney light rail say they can move up to 9000 passengers per direction per hour. From what I've seen of people on outer harbor line there is only two full trains each day, and they only have two carriages, probably 9000 a day not an hour??
Tallboy-Lemond

I could write up a long explanation of how replacing 2 trains with 6-7 lower capacity trams (spread a safe distance apart) is going to result in a lot of traffic backlog at the many level crossings along the outer harbor line. But as I've posted this before, and people in the department of transport have also done the maths, I'm not going to this time.

The existing tram network in Adelaide has the following issues:
1. The North Terrace to Entertainment Centre tram is very much slower compared to the parallel train service. Bowden station is 50m from Entertainment Centre tram stop, and vis versa for Adelaide train station.
2. The trams and tram platforms are limited in length, may not be possible to expand some platforms without major costs/problems. No much chance of 5 module trams as used interstate.
3. The Adelaide to Glenelg tram is limited by level crossings, can't run more trams as the boom gates on major roads would cause a huge traffic jam.

And yes I've seen Melbourne's tram system moving thousands of people from a major sporting event, it wasn't every effective. Took a long time to move any real volumes, cars gave up using the nearby road with street running, then something broke down and it all went to hell.

Trams have their place, but as a replacement for a working train service, not a chance.
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

The upgrade of the Port Melbourne and St Kilda railway lines to light rail not only increased the patronage carried but took them much closer into the CBD of Melbourne.  

Fully agree about the travel time between AEC and ARS, though that is solely due to traffic light priority and the chaos caused by the single line at City West... the latter which will soon be eliminated, and the former that should occur whether or not the tram service is extended to replace the rail line.

And should the railway be converted to light rail I would like to see the level crossings replaced with traffic light styled operation as was used on the diversionary track that was in use while the South Road Overpass was being built.  This arrangement not only reduced the hold time for motorists while not substantially delaying tram services, but had the added benefit that both road vehicles and trams were stationary before the tram commenced crossing, significantly minimising the risk of a level crossing incident.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Well with no one going to any real big events in the future on the Outer Harbor/Grange line once Adelaide Oval is finished then I am with those that think a tram system could cope with what is now done by trains. But I would convert the existing railway line in full though not make any deviations through the centre of Port Adelaide etc. Good idea to do it it but the the roads there are not really wide enough to have a two tramlines down the roads and still have good traffic flow. It would be better to have the trams go up and over the viaduct at Port Adelaide.

I have always been able to get a seat on a rush hour train on the Outer Harbor line, so there may be some truth in what was said that more people use the Glenelg tram than use the Outer Harbor rail line. Off peak this train service acts like a tram anyway, there are only a few that use it off peak, so running a diesel railcar set to do what a tram could do do is just wasting money really. It would also negate the expense of the proposed subway at Bowden as it would no longer be needed, the savings from this could be ploughed into buying more trams or getting sections to add to the trams to take more people per tram car. Probably too easy to do this though. One other thing that could be done if this was done is a direct link between the tram stop at Adelaide Railway station and the underground subway say a stairway and lift or something. So that you can get out of the tram and go directly to a train under cover without crossing the road there. Leave the pedestrian crossings in place though for those that want to use them though.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
I could write up a long explanation of how replacing 2 trains with 6-7 lower capacity trams (spread a safe distance apart) is going to result in a lot of traffic backlog at the many level crossings along the outer harbor line. But as I've posted this before, and people in the department of transport have also done the maths, I'm not going to this time.

The existing tram network in Adelaide has the following issues:
1. The North Terrace to Entertainment Centre tram is very much slower compared to the parallel train service. Bowden station is 50m from Entertainment Centre tram stop, and vis versa for Adelaide train station.
fabricator


But what about the Entertainment Centre to Pirie Street or Victoria Square?

2. The trams and tram platforms are limited in length, may not be possible to expand some platforms without major costs/problems. No much chance of 5 module trams as used interstate.


The trams work very well shifting huge numbers of people within the city, and I think you'll find the Citadis are 5 unit trams.

3. The Adelaide to Glenelg tram is limited by level crossings, can't run more trams as the boom gates on major roads would cause a huge traffic jam.


Sounds like an excuse not a reason.

And yes I've seen Melbourne's tram system moving thousands of people from a major sporting event, it wasn't every effective. Took a long time to move any real volumes, cars gave up using the nearby road with street running, then something broke down and it all went to hell.

Trams have their place, but as a replacement for a working train service, not a chance.


When the existing railway service isn't up to scratch and doesn't service the CBD there is every reason to replace it.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

But what about the Entertainment Centre to Pirie Street or Victoria Square?
kipioneer
For the Entertainment Centre they would use Bowden Railway Station (whether above or below the ground) which is only a couple of minutes further to away on foot than the tram stop, and with pedestrian-activated lights on both sides of Port Road giving nice safe access. It is just a touch further if you need to get to the Adelaide-bound platform,

For other locations within the CBD it will still be quicker to come in on the train and then head up to the tram stop. If the train left Bowden and the tram left the Entertainment Centre at the same time (and both ran on time) a person getting off the train might even be able to get the previous tram if they could escape the station quickly.

The trams work very well shifting huge numbers of people within the city, and I think you'll find the Citadis are 5 unit trams.
kipioneer
They are kind of okay, but not really faster than even walking over a distance such as ARS to the Central Market - unless one comes along at just the right time and is not packed full. It's definitely far slower than cycling, I can kick the tram's butt over the whole length of the city shuttle route even if it has a string of short dwell time stops.

The Flexity and Citadis trams are of completely different designs with the way their segments fit together, so that the three-segment Flexity is only two metres shorter than the more modern double-articulated Citadis. Simply talking about the number of segments doesn't really mean anything when you have some articulated trams and some double-articulated trams with shorter segments.

Sounds like an excuse not a reason.
kipioneer

If the MFS or SA Ambulance could use a tram then I might agree with such an obvious "screw the rubber tyred set" caricature.

When the existing railway service isn't up to scratch and doesn't service the CBD there is every reason to replace it.
kipioneer
The biggest problem with replacing the Outer Harbour line with trams that join the current tram line at Hindmarsh is that it would make public transport worse, not better. It may not be a fantastic service currently, but scrapping the trains and using trams is not going to fix it!

Using the Port Road alignment for that would be just silly, while the train runs into the city you're left spending nearly triple the time lurching from stop to stop like you're with a teenager learning to drive a manual for the first time.

If the Outer Harbour line was to be replaced with trams and still be an improvement to public transport, it has to use a different alignment. Perhaps it would be worth considering keeping it using the Bowden underground concept and the grade separation under the ARTC line, then getting a bit different from there. One option would be to use War Memorial Drive and Morphett St to get onto the main east-west public transport axis of Currie/Grenfell St (and an eventual extension along The Parade) or to access the same end result using current rail land then rising up to join Morphett Street on top of the bridge.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
I had a look at the time tables for the Blue and Gold lines in Los Angeles last evening: in peak a 5 minute headway service shared with road users and off-peak at least a 12 minute headway.

What is the difference between trains running on a 15 minute headway on the section of line to Woodville, and trams running on a 15 minute headway on the Glenelg line?

I would suggest absolutely nothing: the problem is in the signalling not the vehicles used.

Ambulances and MFS:  I have seen ambulances nearly come into collision with trains twice - at Leader Street and Cross Road - because the drivers have gone around the boom arms, and Cross Road doesn't have a very frequent train service.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Is the crossover near the Adelaide Railway station tram stop going to be east of the stop or west of the stop.
"flexity103"


Drove along North Tce both ways today and noted lots of those spray paint markings.
The excavation for the cross over is marked between Blyth and Victoria Streets (thats just west of the stop)
The kerbside trees have been removed outside the Holy Trinity Church so it looks like the west bound lanes will have a kink to still allow the right hand turn lane into the Convention centre south carpark.
Excavators were being unloaded outside the Mercury Cinema around 12:30pm.
Electricians had the control cabinet for the City West points open.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Drove along North Tce both ways today and noted lots of those spray paint markings.
The excavation for the cross over is marked between Blyth and Victoria Streets (thats just west of the stop)
The kerbside trees have been removed outside the Holy Trinity Church so it looks like the west bound lanes will have a kink to still allow the right hand turn lane into the Convention centre south carpark.
Excavators were being unloaded outside the Mercury Cinema around 12:30pm.
Electricians had the control cabinet for the City West points open.
"Pressman"

I was in the vicinity at about 10.30, spoke to a nice security girl, when I asked her what they were doing she said 'They're digging up some track to put some track in'
Me 'Oh yeah, that's right that extra bit of track is going in where there used to be one track'
Her 'Yeah, stupid governments, they seem to be forgetting to do a lot of that lately, I mean look at how they forgot to make the Southern Expressway go both ways and they forgot that the Belair train would like two tracks'
- switched on girl!
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Late night Aaron? I was also driving past the works at about 1030. A very impressive site with a large team and lots of plant and large trucks all the way from the ARS stop to City West. Good to see serious shutdown work as it should look.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Being a user of the Outer Harbor train line I rather like the idea of it being converted into a tram line in the future for just the reason Kipioneer stated it will take me right into the CBD without changing between train and tram or bus as I have to do now. Most people along this line that use it would appreciate for that and it might even encourage more to actually use the tram than currently use the train that dumps you at the Adelaide Railway station and leaves you to your own devices as how to get any where really from there.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
As of 13:00 today .....
All new track had been laid, concrete pour was all but done at the cross over.
The new track replacing the old single line section was being prepared for concreting.
The new overhead was being bracketed under the Morphett St Bridge.
Tram services were operating from the Rundle Mall Stop, utilizing the turnback cross over.
Staff were manually operating the points (I thought these were "spring loaded") and directing tram movements.
Stops west of the work all had "Station Closed" signs and none appeared to be attended, bar the shuttle bus stop opposite the Entertainment Centre on Port Road.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Being a user of the Outer Harbor train line I rather like the idea of it being converted into a tram line in the future for just the reason Kipioneer stated it will take me right into the CBD without changing between train and tram or bus as I have to do now. Most people along this line that use it would appreciate for that and it might even encourage more to actually use the tram than currently use the train that dumps you at the Adelaide Railway station and leaves you to your own devices as how to get any where really from there.
David Peters
I would hazard a guess that nobody gets out at Bowden to catch a tram to the CBD, though masses of people change to the tram outside the station exit as it would save 10 minutes over the Bowden option.
There is the question of timing, trams on the OH are years off. There is fed money to sink the OH at Torrens Junction which is urgent in the interstate freight allowing trains to be increased from 1500m to 1800m, a 20% productivity improvement. That sinking will extend under Park Terrace to a new below ground Bowden station which is part of the Clipsal development which is under construction.
  poxbox3030 Train Controller

Location: Train Control
@62440 : You will actually find that many people alight the Outer Harbor / Grange trains at Bowden and transfer to the Tram.

It's how the fare evaders get around passing through the barriers at Adelaide Station since the Tram is free from the Entertainment Centre to South Terrace.

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