15kph is not 'on the fly'.  you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about fictional 'experts'.  i don't think you have to be one to work that out.  and the 250kph track you talk of in spain does not exist on this corridor.  

i do not think anyone is going to roll out gauge conversion for one train, irrespective of the total cost of a set of bogies.  but, hey don't take my word for it; i'm just guessing.   if you are convinced, take it to someone who can make that decision and see how far you can run with it.  

"Do you think, or dream of what might and should be?..."  this is what i mean by ill-disciplined waves of the hand. in this case at a mythical someone, somewhere ...

and a lecture about grammar.  the big issues are getting an airing today.  thanks for pointing to your signature quotation, which Railpage formatting has made invisible.

flip one liners work best if they're able to be seen, matey. let me be the one to tell you.

15kph is not 'on the fly'.  you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about fictional 'experts'.  i don't think you have to be one to work that out.  and the 250kph track you talk of in spain does not exist on this corridor.
A matter of semantics. Let me say it so that you will understand. 'W i t h o u t  S t o p p i n g'. There, does that satisfy you? I am sorry that my reference to 'expertise' was sarcastic. Just let me say that I have done a little reading of real experts on the matter of gauge changing bogies. I have also been aware for the past 65 years or so of the many such devices invented in Australia for use here in our nightmarish gauge confusion. And of course such devices are in daily use, not least of all at the border on the main route between France and Spain.

i do not think anyone is going to roll out gauge conversion for one train, irrespective of the total cost of a set of bogies.  but, hey don't take my word for it; i'm just guessing. if you are convinced, take it to someone who can make that decision and see how far you can run with it.
I don't expect anything of the present arbiters of social and monetary progress in this country, and at my age I certainly don't expect to see it. I am hopeful, however, that a few younger people might realize that this is not only not the best of all possible worlds, but that it needs fixing, and that those few younger people will work towards that. As I said before, earlier generations gave you what is good (and bad) in this country of ours. We once had a daily one gauge interstate train which for a few years led the world. How is today's situation better than that?

"Do you think, or dream of what might and should be?..."  this is what i mean by ill-disciplined waves of the hand. in this case at a mythical someone, somewhere ...
I'm sorry if a lifetime of serious thinking about the nature of society is ill-disciplined. Using 'fly' in another sense, I would respectfully suggest that minds that fly and dare to imagine new and better ways have been responsible for every progressive move in society that has ever been made. I may not be a great thinker, but I do read their thoughts and try to emulate them rather than be a self-satisfied ox munching my hay in the stall.

and a lecture about grammar.  the big issues are getting an airing today.  thanks for pointing to your signature quotation, which Railpage formatting has made invisible.
Well here they are, from Oliver Wendell Holmes. Look him up:

'Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions'.

'The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye; the more light you shine on it, the more it will contract'.

For 'bigot' in this context read 'One who is not prepared to entertain new or alternative ideas',

and one of my very own:

'The mark of an educated person is that he realizes how very little he knows'.

I certainly don't know it all, and put forward everything that I write (not just here) with some trepidation, but the teacher in this son and grandson of teachers thinks that however misguided or downright wrong I may be, I must try to leave this world a little better than I have found it. There's nothing personal in all this. I'm just hoping for an improvement in the standards of debate on this list about the mode of transport that I have cared about since I was a little boy watching Webb's almost new engines and rolling stock go by from my back fence, and so    I must profoundly disagree with your last statement:

flip one liners work best if they're able to be seen, matey. let me be the one to tell you.  

They do bikes free of charge during January to try and attract a little promotion from the Tour Down Under, but I have never had a problem with me doing it the wrong way around for the Road Nationals at Ballarat the weekend before the TDU starts. It takes just two tools and a few minutes to detach the handlebars (kept strapped to the frame using two octopus straps to avoid detaching cables) and pedals, which is a lot easier than dismantling it to fit into a bike bag/box. As I said above, I'm yet to do that with my newer carbon fibre road bike so I don't know how it would go.

I can't see anything on the GSR website about a $50 charge for a bike though, I've only ever done it during January when it's free.

Out of curiosity as a fellow cyclist, which trail at Mt Lofty are you referring to? The Eagle MTB Park or the old Mount Barker Road track which was replaced by the current freeway? If you're interested in going to Mt Lofty, the best time of the year is probably in March when BikeSA organises a mass ride featuring closed roads from the city to Glen Osmond, the up the freeway itself with motor traffic diverted on Mt Barker Road, on Summit Road over Mt Lofty and from there to Ashton, Montacute and Rostrevor on the descent.

This was at least six years ago, probably longer as it wasn't long after the Mt Lofty/Mt Barker Rd trail opened.  At that time the brochure or website said something about the carriage of bikes in the luggage van attracting a charge of $50 each way which was frankly ridiculous.  They may well have dumped that some time ago, perhaps on account of getting that Tour de South Australia bike race, and I didn't notice because I'd long since given up on the train. Surely one of the few advantages the train has over buses and planes is the fact that you can take whatever you like with you (within reason).  Maybe I'll reconsider using the train again in the warmer months if you can take your bike with you for free/minimal cost?

In relation to riding up the freeway through the Heysen Tunnels, forget it!  I'm not nearly fit enough to go all that way uphill in one stretch and frankly the thought of plummeting down the other way is terrifying, doing it in a bus is bad enough.  Given how steep and long it is I'm surprised there aren't more accidents, especially with trucks.  The Mt Lofty trail on the old Mt Barker road is about as adventurous as I'd get - much too winding for a car or truck but wonderful and scenic if you are on your bike, I'm sure.

In relation to riding up the freeway through the Heysen Tunnels, forget it!  I'm not nearly fit enough to go all that way uphill in one stretch and frankly the thought of plummeting down the other way is terrifying, doing it in a bus is bad enough.  Given how steep and long it is I'm surprised there aren't more accidents, especially with trucks.  

You wouldn't be able to ride up or down the freeway or through the tunnels without coping a heavy fine.
Bicycles are not permitted on the freeway at all (unless as JAP mentioned , there is a special event which would involve road closures to motor vehicles), so you won't get to "mix it" with trucks etc.
There is now a 60kph speed limit for all vehicles "with 5 or more axles" (read semis and B-doubles) decending between Crafers interchange and the toll gate. (including a couple of fixed 24 hr speed cameras and axle counters to police the new limits)

The event I was referring to (Boileau VeloAdelaide) uses the freeway only for the ascent out of the city, they have Montacute Road closed off for the descent returning to town towards the end of the route. I agree that the freeway would not be a good road for descending on even with a road closure, too many people wouldn't have the bike handling skills to safely negotiate the gradient, and being near the end of the route would require the closure time to be unacceptably long compared to using it at the start when everyone is escorted onto the freeway as one big peleton of thousands.

The only cyclists who ever get to use any part of the freeway heading down the hill are the professionals on the WorldTour teams which contest the Tour Down Under each January, when they ride back to the event village in the city after the stage finish at Stirling. For safety reasons with the crowds present, the major teams and their support vehicles get a police escort on the bottom part of the freeway from Devils Elbow to the Toll Gate, using the left lane at 60 km/h.

The Crafers Bikeway is a good ride going up or down and distinctive as a very safe option for going up to Crafers, and the scenery is not bad. If you do come over to do it, I would suggest starting from Belair Railway Station and heading through Belair National Park on the way up to Crafers to return down via the Crafers Bikeway.

For a scenic ride overlooking Adelaide another good option is the Patrick Jonker Veloway that parallels the Southern Expressway (again, possible to do on the road itself as the first portion of a yearly event on a Sunday morning in November) over the full distance and also connects to the Coast to Vines Trail at Old Noarlunga. The hill is easier than the Crafers Bikeway, and from some point next year (possibly before the state election) it will be possible to use a train to/from Seaford to make it a one-way ride.

You wouldn't be able to ride up or down the freeway or through the tunnels without coping a heavy fine.
Bicycles are not permitted on the freeway at all (unless as JAP mentioned , there is a special event which would involve road closures to motor vehicles), so you won't get to "mix it" with trucks etc.
There is now a 60kph speed limit for all vehicles "with 5 or more axles" (read semis and B-doubles) decending between Crafers interchange and the toll gate. (including a couple of fixed 24 hr speed cameras and axle counters to police the new limits)

I think you will find the surprise at the lack of accidents with trucks is referring to trucks vs the prevailing conditions and grade, not trucks vs bikes...

I think you will find the surprise at the lack of accidents with trucks is referring to trucks vs the prevailing conditions and grade, not trucks vs bikes...

In what way did Don_Dunstan, Pressman or Justapassenger state or imply otherwise? Each explicitly indicated that he thought that the road was too dangerous for bicycles except under special escorted conditions in the case of the Tour Down Under stage after the finish at Stirling. They were all expressing surprise that there are not more truck accidents during the descent, and using this as a reason for their belief that downhill cycling there would be very dangerous indeed.

In what way did Don_Dunstan, Pressman or Justapassenger state or imply otherwise? Each explicitly indicated that he thought that the road was too dangerous for bicycles except under special escorted conditions in the case of the Tour Down Under stage after the finish at Stirling. They were all expressing surprise that there are not more truck accidents during the descent, and using this as a reason for their belief that downhill cycling there would be very dangerous indeed.

JAP specifically mentioned closed roads yes, D_D specifically mentioned not wanting to ride up the grade and mentioned coming down the hill in a bus and being surprised at the lack of accidents involving trucks. My query was to Pressman who managed to link the two suggesting that he thought D_D had concern about doing the ride "mixing it with trucks" - I do not believe the first two expressed anything remotely like that issue.

For the record, I have done both the climb and decent on the old road several times (unclosed road too), and likewise on the new road (closed) twice. Neither ride is totally for the newbie, although I was only in junior high school when I first rode the old route, but equally, neither route is unsafe as such. An inexperienced rider's biggest concern coming down the current route is being able to adequately able to wash of speed, I am quite sure given the opportunity that one could easily break the speed limit through the tunnels with little more than unbraked coasting on a bike. If you have never experienced braking and cornering a bike at 60+kmph don't try it. Likewise the decent down the Southern Expressway either on the closed road or the following bike path (or South Road for that matter) is not for people not familiar with speed.

Monatcute Road the other mentioned by JAP could be an interesting prospect to those not familiar with it. Pushing it to get down the relatively steep, very straight right up to the point where you have to brake coming back from 60 to 70 kmph to make it unscathed through a roundabout, lots of energy to loose.

But all of this is OT to the topic du jour.

For the record, I have done both the climb and de(s)cent on the old road several times (unclosed road too......

For the record, so have I. On an old jalopy of a bike by today's standards it was quite hairy to be overtaking cars going down hill on the tortuous and narrow one-lane-each-way main road to Melbourne. It was easier going home after lectures though. I could put the bike on the train to Mount Lofty, and if it was a railcar, sit on the toolbox talking to the driver on the other side of the engine and keeping warm. That was a whole lot better than pushing the pedals up hill, which occasionally I had to do.

It's clear that quite a few of us follow cycling. I watch the whole telecast every night when the Tour de France is on, and of course follow the Tour Down Under.

The service can continue in its present form until the vehicles need replacing then, I'm afraid, that is it.

If patronage were to increase then who knows?

this is the key point, i'm afraid.  

bing requested, sensibly, IMHO, that we discuss affordable ideas taking into account that the train must run on what is essentially a freight railway.  

presumably this excludes generalised, ineffectual tomcat-sprays at the international tax or finance system, which can achieve zero in this context.

ergo, looking through the thread, i think small changes to make the trip comfortable and agreeable, such as free films and more 'structural', but still modest. improvements, ie lining seats up with windows, are essential.  

11 hours in a train seat not aligned with a window is horrorshow.  the very idea reminds me of our inner cabin on the empress of australia in 1982 where our view for the night crossing was grey plasticised laminate, while marinated all night in the afterburn of the best cooking that seaborne ANL employees could muster, ie, bad steak, charred to a crisp.  the kind of thing you tally up in your stock of 'never again' travel memories.

this is a make or break moment for the train.  if it is not to die, ridership must rise, and in the short term, too.

having observed the tale of woe that constitutes australian passenger rail since the late 70s, reductions in service like this are done for one reason only. they occur a couple of years before a major upgrade is needed. the idea is to make the train so unattractive and unused that cutting it, rather than replacing it, can be pitched by governments not as a cynical pruning but as a heroic necessity, 'facing up to grim realities' and so on.

ben

Ben

Thanks for bringing the topic back on track.

Good points too.

I have seen some OLs quite full but I don't know if this extended to Wednesday/Thursday. Surprising occupancy considering the infrequent service and all the negative comments I have read here.

Only 4 running days does bring operating economies as I stated earlier in greater proportion to the reduced number of trips. Saving come from only needing one crew and being able to service the cars on a week day in addition to reduced paths, reduced loco hire and the like.

In terms of trip time it would be quicker if Pax were bused from Keswick to Murray Bridge and Geelong to Melbourne; might as well stay on the bus.


Ian

I'm still enamoured with the Ararat-Adelaide shuttle idea; V-Line have their own standard gauge routes now so it won't be a stretch for them to operate it.  An attempt at a proper train service instead of a tourist service...  If only the timing was better.

bing requested, sensibly, IMHO, that we discuss affordable ideas taking into account that the train must run on what is essentially a freight railway.

It had been a general carrier since 1887 until well after narrowing of the gauge; It was "a notable achievement for a comparatively small colony first settled only fifty years previously" to quote W.H. Callaghan in his definitive book The Overland Railway. Political action took away that function to the detriment of every passenger who has since been displaced and forced onto inherently dangerous and less comfortable road transport against his will. Political action can restore the general carrier function if the will is there.

presumably this excludes generalised, ineffectual tomcat-sprays at the international tax or finance system, which can achieve zero in this context.

If a 'tomcat spray' wakens a few of the self-satisfied lumpen proletariat to the fact that our present political and financial practices are profoundly disfunctional, then there is a very faint hope that improvements will one day occur. I'm as aware as you that such changes will not occur in time to be applicable here, but it's still worth pointing out that the excuses of so many alleged supporters of rail transport on this page as to why it can't be done could well be re-placed by a little positive instead of the negative thinking that they so often display........

ergo, looking through the thread, i think small changes to make the trip comfortable and agreeable, such as free films and more 'structural', but still modest. improvements, ie lining seats up with windows, are essential. 11 hours in a train seat not aligned with a window is horrorshow......... (horrendous).....

so I'm pleased to be able wholeheartedly to agree with you on this point,

this is a make or break moment for the train.  if it is not to die, ridership must rise, and in the short term, too...... having observed the tale of woe that constitutes australian passenger rail since the late 70s, reductions in service like this are done for one reason only. they occur a couple of years before a major upgrade is needed. the idea is to make the train so unattractive and unused that cutting it, rather than replacing it, can be pitched by governments not as a cynical pruning but as a heroic necessity, 'facing up to grim realities' and so on.

and this as well. There is, however, an often expressed belief that if something desirable is provided the patronage will come. As a start, even if a not overly expensive solution of the gauge problem can't be provided in one of the strongest economies in the world many years after it is a daily fact elsewhere, then at least a daily standard gauge V-Line shuttle between the third platform at Adelaide Parklands and Ararat, connecting with the trains to and from Melbourne via Ballarat, will not only serve Adelaide but foster the growth of already large and pleasant towns which may offer a real alternative to the inexorable growth of the capital cities, increasing potential patronage in the process. Perhaps the provision of a third rail on the Belair line right into Adelaide Central Station from a point somewhere along the standard gauge route through the GSR station as far as the southern end of the Gaol loop, or even the standardization of the whole line pending changing it to light rail, could be considered. Please remember that I actually use the existing services frequently, and have done so for sixty years. I'm not sure that some of my critics can say the same.

I'm still enamoured with the Ararat-Adelaide shuttle idea; V-Line have their own standard gauge routes now so it won't be a stretch for them to operate it.  An attempt at a proper train service instead of a tourist service...  If only the timing was better.

Good idea Don.. connect it with the Vlocity @ Ararat and with the right timetabling who knows.. maybe even a daylight and nightly service could be achieved!

Good idea Don.. connect it with the Vlocity @ Ararat and with the right timetabling who knows.. maybe even a daylight and nightly service could be achieved!

If they could improve the times to make it comparable to driving (ie 6 hours Adelaide to Ararat) then you could run an early and a late return service.  The three biggest problems as I see them are:

• Life expired rolling stock in need of replacement;
• Adelaide Hills is a major obstacle to any improvement in timings;
• Would the potential market for this service like it and use it?

Don

Your last point if fundamental. "The Market"

Forgetting the current use of the OL for a moment because it only draws disparaging comments about retirees and any other persons who can afford the time.

Some of the reasons people travel Melbourne/Adelaide (not in any order).

1. Business
2. Sporting interests
3. Visiting relatives/friends
4. Attending conferences
5. General tourism

In this age we would see most of these trips as time critical. Certainly business trips are as are sporting interests and conference attendance. Persons don't want to spend all weekend travelling to/from a crows match in Melbourne (certainly not at the moment).

Of the 5 points only point 5 would not be seen a time critical.

If the other points are not time critical persons may well drive so that their vehicle is available for use in Melbourne.

For some years I have been attending a church conference in Melbourne. While it was near the CBD my wife and I flew, we didn't need the car. When it moved to the outer Eastern suburbs we drove so we had the car to get from our accommodation to the conference centre.
Going to the Tennis and C'wealth games we flew because we did not need a car but had limited time. Only on our last tennis excursion did we catch the train. This was deliberate on our part because I wanted compare the OL with my Amtrak experiences.

IMHO, unless the OL can get between Melbourne and Adelaide in a morning OR afternoon it will not be viable as a day time trip; that means under 5 hours.

I am yet to be convinced that an overnight OL geared up market to be a travelling motel does not have commercial possibilities.
For many years I caught red eye flights with probably 200 plus business travellers and would have welcomed an overnight train that did not take too long and arrived on time. The poor Old Lady never quite made it. She did save my bacon with a fractious client on one occasion but that is another story.
Moving up market means they have to have up market staff delivering up market service.

Both a 5 hour daylight trip time or a revamped overnight service are dreams; possible but way out.

A DMU type service running each way daily with an under 8 hour trip might capture enough interest to be viable, even if people only use it initially for the novelty, it might catch on.

Regards
Ian

A "Mobile Motel" might work but would need to be 4 star for less than the cost of a flight plus a non-mobile motel. Departing after 2200 and arrivng around 0700 and offerring breakfast, etc. Perhaps running ADL - MEL on Wed, Fri, Sun; and MEL - ADL Mon, Thu, Sat.

We've been over the APT connection issue before, doing anything other than leaving it where it is would be more expensive than subsidising free minibus shuttles from APT to wherever. After being imprisoned in one of their carriages for nearly 11 hours I would actually welcome the walk to the bus stop on Richmond Road or the new Waywick station as a chance to wake up my legs a little!

Whilst you were "Imprisoned" in one of their carriages, did you think about moving to the Lounge Car for a while? - Stretch your legs, have a few drinks & some food? On a train you can move about safely. You might welcome the walk to the "New Waywick Station", what if it is raining and you have your luggage to contend with?

A "Mobile Motel" might work but would need to be 4 star for less than the cost of a flight plus a non-mobile motel. Departing after 2200 and arrivng around 0700 and offerring breakfast, etc. Perhaps running ADL - MEL on Wed, Fri, Sun; and MEL - ADL Mon, Thu, Sat.

If you were serious about business travel it has to be both ways every day.

Only twinette sized cabins would be offered as "Business" travel. Facilities would have to include internet access, wifi, printer and photo copier access. The car attendant would be a "Butler" and there would be room service (at a cost).

The old overnight OL was close but the quality was not there and the journey time was too slow.
2200to 0700 is probably the shortest trip time; 2100 to 0730 would be acceptable.

The tarted up train could still convey the ordinary mix of pax which will/may still draw some subsidies from Victoria; Horsham residents could get their day in Melbourne.

sounds like some of you might form a working party to fight for the train.

dribblerail but hopefully without the dribble. given this is a train that hopefully can be saved, given sufficient work.

no baron von munchausens, germelhausens or other fantastical scions of german nobility need apply.

You would need to have a proper business case because the idea of at least 4-star service would probably be very expensive.  I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that with the millions being put up would have to show some sort of demonstrable market before anyone would seriously consider your 'overnight hotel' concept.  It wouldn't be a case of simply tarting up those carriages (again) either, they would probably need to be gutted and refitted to very high modern standards to have a hope of attracting your high end crowd.  I also agree that it needs to be a bit faster because otherwise the departure/arrival timings aren't flash (nine hours on a train is more than enough!).

Maybe you could also talk to hospitality operators like the major high-end hotel brands and see if they were interested in investing as a unique 'transit hotel' for international tourists and business-people alike, people who can afford the big prices you would probably have to ask.  Hotels are also good at things like yield management so you could probably vary prices like airlines and hotels do according to demand - that also allows for things that commercial operators in that industry do too like stand-by and last-minute special deals, etc etc.

I like the concept, just not sure who you would convince to put the money up for something like that - obviously GSR/Serco can't be really be bothered - but it could potentially make money for the operator if the bookings were consistently high.

One other thing - very limited stopping.  Those people in the smaller towns are not in your target market so don't bother.  And no discounts for pensioners - this is a private business on rails, again, you aren't aiming at that market - you want people with money who will also spend at the bar once they're on the train!

Also I thought the paths were an issue at night because that's when the majority of freights transit between cities - perhaps this would also need to be sorted out prior to initiating the 'transit hotel' Overland.  You'd lose passengers/guests fast if the train was unreliable for that reason.

Also I thought the paths were an issue at night because that's when the majority of freights transit between cities - perhaps this would also need to be sorted out prior to initiating the 'transit hotel' Overland.  You'd lose passengers/guests fast if the train was unreliable for that reason.

Trading a path with a freight operator (i.e. freight operator currently using a night path takes the current GSR daytime path) could solve that to some degree.

The imminent completion of the Goodwood grade separation and subsequent relaxing of speed restrictions should also help create extra paths (and allow more efficient 1800m trains) by way of ARTC no longer having to block out 5-6 hours each day when the local traffic is too dense for DPTI to release control over the flat crossing.

Torrens Junction is still a problem for freight service, but it would have no effect on a GSR train arriving from Melbourne in the morning which has no need to use that flat crossing on a time-sensitive basis, the loco released from the Overland could wait until after the morning peak before running to Dry Creek.

Don

Constructive points. Like the "hotel operator" idea.

Total logistical solutions like those promoted by SCT can make freight journeys slightly less time critical because the operator also does the warehousing making for what appears to be local deliveries rather than interstate overnight.

Reliability is of great importance, punctuality impresses.

Ian

justapassenger: I didn't know that Torrens Junction was such an issue but I do recall sitting on the Overland many times waiting for the Noarlunga line to clear, so it makes sense now.  I suppose they wouldn't have spent money on it if it wasn't a big problem.

Steam4ian: Personally I think trying to get one of the major hotel brands to operate it would be the way to go, I just don't have confidence in any other sort of an organisation to be on target with the sort of market you're aiming for.  If it operated only at night you still might leave open the other possibility of a day-time return V-Line service Ararat-Adelaide aimed at a totally different market.