New Collie to Bunbury line

 
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

Lanco has told the South Western Times it would make a capital investment of between $800,000 to $1 billion in the South West to bring its export plans to reality

If successful in its bid to export up to 18 million tonnes of coal through Bunbury, Lanco is expected to build a new rail line from Collie to the Harbour

Source: Todays South Western Times

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  andrew1996 Train Controller

Location: Fremantle
Lanco has told the South Western Times it would make a capital investment of between $800,000 to $1 billion in the South West to bring its export plans to reality

If successful in its bid to export up to 18 million tonnes of coal through Bunbury, Lanco is expected to build a new rail line from Collie to the Harbour

Source: Todays South Western Times
WAGR
What is wrong with the old Collie to Bunbury line?
  skitz Chief Commissioner

What is wrong with the old Collie to Bunbury line?
andrew1996

Grade, congestion, capacity, speed, curves.....

Take your pick.  

Its a busy little goat track.

One would wonder that an alternative line would not be near this track current track alignment and go around a more southerly route.  Been discussed here before?
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

Grade, congestion, capacity, speed, curves.....

Take your pick.  

Its a busy little goat track.

One would wonder that an alternative line would not be near this track current track alignment and go around a more southerly route.  Been discussed here before?
skitz

Very true skitz. Can you imagine what a extra 20 million tonnes PA over that line would bring. A real big log jam the future proposal of lanco's 18m tonne of coal exports plus 2m tonnes of Perdaman urea exports has to bring about a new route thinking. Bearing in mind that the distance from Shotts, Buckingham,  Muja where the activity will take place to Bunbury ports via Mumballup  Donnybrook is about equal give or take a few K's from the same area via Brunswick. So we could possibly see a revival of a decades old idea of another route from the Coalfields to Port of Bunbury. I don't think it would mean the closure of the existing route as this serves other purposes, but rather a relief from the current situation
  DBclass Chief Commissioner

Location: Western Australia
Would duplicating the existing line be feasible? I know some areas of it are very very tight on for land, but that could be changed. Rather then tearing into virigin land, and reinstating old alignments. Not that i am against that however. Just looking at a map the closest link between two old alignments is about 20km at a guess, between Cardiff and Mummballup. The current alignment could also be straightened out a little if enough earth was moved, and maybe softenening of a few grades. But you cannot avoid the climb either way.
  dw54 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Devonport, Tas
Lanco has told the South Western Times it would make a capital investment of between $800,000 to $1 billion in the South West to bring its export plans to reality

If successful in its bid to export up to 18 million tonnes of coal through Bunbury, Lanco is expected to build a new rail line from Collie to the Harbour

Source: Todays South Western Times
WAGR
$800,000 to $1bn - that's quite a wide range Laughing. They might get a few wagons for the bottom end of the range.
  dw54 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Devonport, Tas
Would duplicating the existing line be feasible? I know some areas of it are very very tight on for land, but that could be changed. Rather then tearing into virigin land, and reinstating old alignments. Not that i am against that however. Just looking at a map the closest link between two old alignments is about 20km at a guess, between Cardiff and Mummballup. The current alignment could also be straightened out a little if enough earth was moved, and maybe softenening of a few grades. But you cannot avoid the climb either way.
DBclass
Historical note: the EGR (2nd) had a ruling gradient of 1:40 between Perth and Northam. The Avon Valley route has 1:200. So, while you cannot avoid a climb, it's how you go about it that determines the ruling gradient and hence locomotive:train ratio and other dynamic constraints.
  DBclass Chief Commissioner

Location: Western Australia
Historical note: the EGR (2nd) had a ruling gradient of 1:40 between Perth and Northam. The Avon Valley route has 1:200. So, while you cannot avoid a climb, it's how you go about it that determines the ruling gradient and hence locomotive:train ratio and other dynamic constraints.
dw54

Given most trains come down the hill loaded im not sure any time can be saved with a new alignment. Unless you can maintain a high speed it might not be any different. Most of the hills in that area wouldnt be much different, as, well its the same hills your trying to get up. So you may end up duplicating the same problem. Although you will have twice as much track to run trains on. However, both lines will be bi directional single line. If you duplicate the current alignment, you end up with dual track. Which is better IMO. If you had two routes, one could be up and one down. But this will mean trains not going to Bunbury such as coal (to kwinana) will have to do extra miles when its not required. A dual track will mean more trains, faster, for all trains currently running. Possibly cheaper to do also. I am not sure on what limits the speed of trains coming down the hill, some drivers could comment, but if its the friction brakes you could put extra locos on the rear of a train for dynamic braking. Now diesel locos would be wastefull in this duty, but a battery loco that stored the energy, and used it when powering would be a good idea i think. You could have three two axle bogies like the electric locos in Qld, and have them in distributed power. If you could brake a train fully on dynamic i suspect it would be easier to control too without the issue of charging air etc.

My theory which may be wrong, says that a loco can pull 1250 tons uphill- an S class at 3000hp. Loaded alumina trains coming down the hill are about 3600 tons. So that would mean about 9000hp required to pull the same load up hill. I imagine braking would be similar. So if you had a mid train brake loco and a rear one. You might do ok to brake a train on dynamic braking alone. This would mean building locos, technology, etc etc. But its something i have thought of. No doubt others too. My first idea was electric overhead. The loaded trains could generate power on the way down and pull the empty ones up with that same power. Loaded trains are roughly 4 times heavier. Therefore the power generated would roughly reflect that. Much like the rope system on coal mines. The loaded wagons pull the empty ones up to be loaded, and so on.
  dw54 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Devonport, Tas
Given most trains come down the hill loaded im not sure any time can be saved with a new alignment. Unless you can maintain a high speed it might not be any different. Most of the hills in that area wouldnt be much different, as, well its the same hills your trying to get up. So you may end up duplicating the same problem. Although you will have twice as much track to run trains on. However, both lines will be bi directional single line. If you duplicate the current alignment, you end up with dual track. Which is better IMO. If you had two routes, one could be up and one down. But this will mean trains not going to Bunbury such as coal (to kwinana) will have to do extra miles when its not required. A dual track will mean more trains, faster, for all trains currently running. Possibly cheaper to do also. I am not sure on what limits the speed of trains coming down the hill, some drivers could comment, but if its the friction brakes you could put extra locos on the rear of a train for dynamic braking. Now diesel locos would be wastefull in this duty, but a battery loco that stored the energy, and used it when powering would be a good idea i think. You could have three two axle bogies like the electric locos in Qld, and have them in distributed power. If you could brake a train fully on dynamic i suspect it would be easier to control too without the issue of charging air etc.

My theory which may be wrong, says that a loco can pull 1250 tons uphill- an S class at 3000hp. Loaded alumina trains coming down the hill are about 3600 tons. So that would mean about 9000hp required to pull the same load up hill. I imagine braking would be similar. So if you had a mid train brake loco and a rear one. You might do ok to brake a train on dynamic braking alone. This would mean building locos, technology, etc etc. But its something i have thought of. No doubt others too. My first idea was electric overhead. The loaded trains could generate power on the way down and pull the empty ones up with that same power. Loaded trains are roughly 4 times heavier. Therefore the power generated would roughly reflect that. Much like the rope system on coal mines. The loaded wagons pull the empty ones up to be loaded, and so on.
DBclass
1. Just because the topology is the same doesn't mean the construction methods will be the same. Almost certainly the new line will feature easier grades, larger radius curves, better sight lines, steadier grades and much longer crossing loops, along with a much more substantial road bed, stronger bridges and culverts, and probably dual gauge sleepers. All of these factors will allow LONGER trains, greater loads per locomotive both upgrade and down, higher average speeds, heavier axleloads and improved operational economics. Also possible is that the new line is built to AAR standards such that off-the-shelf ES44ACi or SD70ACe could be used.

2. I have been an advocate of brake- and traction-boosting battery-electrics since the 1980s. We have yet to see commercial product for heavy haul despite GE's advertising of battery-boosted EVO locomotives over 2 years ago. GE took over a company that was developing Sodium Hydroxl (NaHx)battery technology. It would be possible today with Li-ion or Li-Polymer batteries together with KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) which is flywheel storage - the latest on that is inductive flywheels requiring no electrical connection to the flywheel and thus adding another layer of reliability. There was a serious effort to make genset-battery-electric locos about 10 years ago. The product was a shunter/trip-worker called the Green Goat. The Canadian manufacturer went into receivership because of fire problems causing warranty claims.They had used lead-acid batteries.
  DBclass Chief Commissioner

Location: Western Australia
Standard gauge would be an interesting one, but i suspect it would be unlikely.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Almost certainly the new line will feature easier grades, larger radius curves, better sight lines, steadier grades and much longer crossing loops, along with a much more substantial road bed, stronger bridges and culverts, and probably dual gauge sleepers. All of these factors will allow LONGER trains ...
"dw54"

How do dual gauge sleepers allow longer trains?
  dw54 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Devonport, Tas
How do dual gauge sleepers allow longer trains?
duttonbay
OK, you win. "Pedand of the Week" award: Crying or Very sad  My bad.

DG sleepers mean SG conversion or DG at outset. If SG is to AAR standard, we're looking at SD70ACe or ES44ACi locomotives with their greater adhesive weight able to start heavier trains. But yes, the gauge matters little as to the length of trains. It's the length of passing loops and unloading sidings or loops that are most relevant.
  DBclass Chief Commissioner

Location: Western Australia
If you used the Qld Blackwater system as a guide, I work it out to be 10, 60 wagon trains per day at 18 mtpa. at 26.5 ton axle load. It would be interesting to see how much of a change it would make if the section from Picton/Bunbury to Brunswick was dual track.
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

$800,000 to $1bn - that's quite a wide range Laughing. They might get a few wagons for the bottom end of the range.


Sorry a typo that should read $800,000,000.
dw54
  jayrail Assistant Commissioner

Location: te Anau Southern Alps NZ
WAGR puts an interesting view of an alternate journey to Bunbury coastal ports. So
are the formations geography  planned yet?
Seems 2 ways using old /former rail formations=
1Collie -Mumballup Donnybrook-Boyanup_ Coast
2Collie-Mungalup-Wellington Mills- Ferguson-Dardanup-Picton
  P2017 Chief Commissioner

Location: Geraldton
How many trains are running up and down the Collie Line? I know the Narngulu Coal does not work any more but what about the other coal trains, are they still running ?

Cheers
David
  DBclass Chief Commissioner

Location: Western Australia
P2017How many trains are running up and down the Collie Line? I know the Narngulu Coal does not work any more but what about the other coal trains, are they still running ?

Cheers
David

According to Brookfield, on average in 2012 there was about 20 train movements per day. So about half what the mainline from Brunswick to Picton Does averaging 42 per day. So most of the congestion is between Brunswick and Picton it seems with both the alumina services for Alcoa and Worsley competing for the same track. North or east of Brunswick the traffic seems to be about half. I got this from here :

http://www.brookfieldrail.com/about-us/our-network/network-specifications/

Under track inventory data. Much usefull information there.
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

WAGR puts an interesting view of an alternate journey to Bunbury coastal ports. So
are the formations geography  planned yet?
Seems 2 ways using old /former rail formations=
1Collie -Mumballup Donnybrook-Boyanup_ Coast
2Collie-Mungalup-Wellington Mills- Ferguson-Dardanup-Picton


Jayrail discussion on the Collie - Bunbury line via Donnybrook is decades old. How far it got in actual investigation I don't know
jayrail
  P2017 Chief Commissioner

Location: Geraldton
According to Brookfield, on average in 2012 there was about 20 train movements per day. So about half what the mainline from Brunswick to Picton Does averaging 42 per day. So most of the congestion is between Brunswick and Picton it seems with both the alumina services for Alcoa and Worsley competing for the same track. North or east of Brunswick the traffic seems to be about half. I got this from here :

http://www.brookfieldrail.com/about-us/our-network/network-specifications/

Under track inventory data. Much usefull information there.
"DBclass"


Interesting, thanks for the link. While I was there I checked out the section between geraldton to narngulu, the last couple months of last year had 500+ trains. Quite a lot for 10kms of track. This would have increased with 4 x Karara ores, 2 x Perenjori ores, 2 x Ruvidinni ores, and 2 grain fleets.

Cheers

David

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