Trainorama GM delays and numbering policy

 
  lustychant Chief Commissioner

Being an AN fan I very much agree with lustychants list particularly the inclusion of some of the final batch (with the rear grill) in green and gold. Other variations with the AN GMs could include green or grey roofs and with or without front MU sockets and with or without lids or on the MU sockets.
"DL36Y"


Don't forget Lemon Twist and plain yellow B Ends.

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  a6et Minister for Railways

Whilst TOR have said they will be reviewing the numbers they are running, & given the numbers shown on their webb site, it does show that the GM list is far greater than that of the S & 42, even with some numbers & possibly some variants  culled I think there should be a reasonable selection, given there are 17 numbers in 4 variations listed there.

http://www.tomshobbies.com.au/index.php/locomotives/keywords/locomotives-trainoramagm
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
[quote="Poath Junction"][quote="comtrain"][quote="Poath Junction"][quote="comtrain"]... and remind TOR that Victorian modellers have been very good to TOR since the company started producing models.[/quote]

Is that "Modellers of Victorian prototypes" or "Modellers of NSW prototype operations who happen to live in Victoria.". The first run of ZLP's have not y

[quote]I am sure most NSWelshmen would have helped those sales along...not![/quote]
Perhaps you should talk to TOR & other importers about who's buying what before blurting out how sure you are.

[quote]Stupid answer is what I am trying to say, but typical Smile[/quote]
Right back at you. If you want to put me in my place do it with facts not assumptions.[/quote]

I say again Ho Hum!!

Suffice to say for the last few years Austrains built some NSW stuff didn't they? I know we got a lot of Viccy stuff...
Auscision built at least as many Viccy models as NSW and very quickly sold out as well
Trainorama also were about equal handed with their models between each State.
why do you think that might have been?

[quote]At 30 June 2009, the estimated resident population of New South Wales (NSW) reached 7.13 million people, representing about a third of Australia's population. NSW experienced the largest population growth of all Australian states and territories, with an increase of 119,500 people since June 2008. The NSW growth rate of 1.7% in 2008-09 was higher than the average annual growth rate of 1.2% for the five years to June 2009.
Victoria's estimated resident population at 30 June 2009 was 5.44 million people, an increase of 116,300 people since June 2008. The 2008-09 growth rate of 2.2% was higher than the average annual growth rate of 1.8% for the five years to June 2009. [/quote]

Sydney is indeed a great place to visit, and NSW is the place to watch the trains go by 1:1.
However wages between the two States are pretty much the same (train Drivers can earn about $100.000 in both States Smile But whilst the average price of housing and in general the cost of living has much to do with the disposable income of people, it does not require the IQ of Einstein to work out the Victorians have more disposable income and are having a better time of it at this time
http://www.studygroup.edu.au/csu/living_expenses.aspx

I put this ball in the garbage can where I think it rightfully belongs.

The topic is definitely to do with what numbers should be available ready to run, to suit the widest range of Trainorama's customers.
Now can we get back to that?
Cheers
Rod
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Being an AN fan I very much agree with lustychants list particularly the inclusion of some of the final batch (with the rear grill) in green and gold. Other variations with the AN GMs could include green or grey roofs and with or without front MU sockets and with or without lids or on the MU sockets.
"DL36Y"


Don't forget Lemon Twist and plain yellow B Ends.
"lustychant"


I really loved the AN Green and Gold period. I believe it has been the best of the new schemes so far. Although of course my heart is still with the VR Blue and Gold, and alas too early for AN engines in my dream railway.
I can run the crimson GM's and the orange (W) L's though
and the 442 and 422 just sneak in.
I will be buying at least two 422's and 3 81's and that will stretch my dream to the absolute limits Smile
Cheers
Rod
  Motorman412 Station Staff

[quote="comtrain"][quote="lustychant"][quote="DL36Y"]Being an AN fan I very much agree with lustychants list particularly the inclusion of some of the final batch (with the rear grill) in green and gold. Other variations with the AN GMs could include green or grey roofs and with or without front MU sockets and with or without lids or on the MU sockets.[/quote]

At the end of the day, Trainorama are running a business. Hence they need to do models which appeal to the most purchasers, and for mine, that makes GM36 as preserved a no-brainer. It has run all over Victoria in both gauges, also worked a bit in NSW - for a period of time, it was regular trailling unit on MC2/CM3 Griffith superfreighter MEL-JUNEE-MEL.

I find the poor number choice by some manufacturers a bit staggering - consider Austrains, they are doing 8155 in FreightCorp blue. 8155 is just another NSW based 81. Make it 8153, and you've got a loco that appeals to Victorian buyers as well, but nooooooooo................

Cheers!
  labhenryboy Chief Train Controller

Location: Mortdale via Syndal
Following the discussion about what GMs were wearing in Victoria in the 80s, here are two photos of GM33 in Melbourne on 1 November 1982:

GM33 at South Dynon with "Australian National Railways" on the side:
[bigimg]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5164/5205720541_f2425d0aa9_b.jpg[/bigimg]

GM33 (with 42201) at South Dynon with coat of arms and 33 painted on front:
[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/5206316034_238f3393c2_b.jpg[/bigimg]


Slightly OT, in the early 80s, it was very exotic to see two "foreign" locos in Melbourne.  This one of the first, if not the first, instance of a 422 class in Melbourne.

I have more photos of GMs in Victoria from the early 80s, but not scanned as yet.
  Bigwato Chief Commissioner

Location: Craigieburn Victoria
GM33 has the Coat of Arms reattached, this would indicate she is being returned to ANR anytime soon.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
[quote="Motorman412"][quote="comtrain"][quote="lustychant"][quote="DL36Y"]Being an AN fan I very much agree with lustychants list particularly the inclusion of some of the final batch (with the rear grill) in green and gold.



I find the poor number choice by some manufacturers a bit staggering - consider Austrains, they are doing 8155 in FreightCorp blue. 8155 is just another NSW based 81. Make it 8153, and you've got a loco that appeals to Victorian buyers as well, but nooooooooo................

Cheers![/quote]


I guess as our Magazine editor points out, we can change some numbers and even do a full repaint.
The GM is possibly an easier job than say the G or the C.

That is if nice well made decals are indeed available. My last two mail order decal purchases were a very big let down. The thin Alps type decals tend to allow the base colour to leak through, and in one case changed the decal colour. What happened to the old BGB type decals that were opaque? Anyway why are we paying for them to be finished off with accurate markings and colours if we are going to redo them?? It does not make sense!

I spoke to Austrains and asked him why he would not make the C Class number boards available. His excuse was that the Chinese don't make spare parts available for realistic prices. Would I pay $50 for two small number boards and a name board where necessary?

I think its about time the Chinese need to be put out of the game if that is an honest answer.
Cheers
Rod Young
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Anyway why are we paying for them to be finished off with accurate markings and colours if we are going to redo them?? It does not make sense!
"comtrain"


Because un-decs despite what you might think clearly don't sell that well, hence Auscision no longer offering them.

I spoke to Austrains and asked him why he would not make the C Class number boards available. His excuse was that the Chinese don't make spare parts available for realistic prices. Would I pay $50 for two small number boards and a name board where necessary?
"comtrain"


That is probably true, spares are very expensive to buy, even at OEM, when parts for a product are trashed while the item is in production getting replacement parts costs a lot. Sourcing tham as spares post production, even moreso.

I think its about time the Chinese need to be put out of the game if that is an honest answer.
"comtrain"


And they should take their business where precisely? Spares cost uber dosh compared the OEM parts regardless of the production place.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga


And they should take their business where precisely? Spares cost uber dosh compared the OEM parts regardless of the production place.
"Aaron"


I know not where. I believe Vietnam is already getting expensive and are no where "quality" ready.
However you could have asked the same question in 1975 about Japan, and in 1988 about Korea, and I bet some people did too Wink
Cheers
Rod
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner



And they should take their business where precisely? Spares cost uber dosh compared the OEM parts regardless of the production place.
"Aaron"


I know not where. I believe Vietnam is already getting expensive and are no where "quality" ready.
However you could have asked the same question in 1975 about Japan, and in 1988 about Korea, and I bet some people did too Wink
Cheers
Rod
"comtrain"


Rod,

In railway modelling terms, Japan was well established by 1975 as a supplier of quality, albeit, brass models, whilst the swing to Korean manufacture was underway from at least 1981. The Mansfield Hobbies brass locos all originated in Korea (Samhongsa) whilst the glut of suppliers that sprang up in the 1980s mostly turned to Korean companies as well.

The Japanese were crucified in the 1980s because the koreans built a cheaper model, but also because they built a far more detailed model. Some of the Japanese companies lifted their game, but the story of railway modelling in 1980s Australia is essentially a mixture of local cottage industries and Korean Brass.

RTR has only really blossomed in the last few years because the Chinese happened to build a comparatively good model cheaply. The prices have been a due in a large part to unsustainably low labour rates and perhaps even due to a desire by the chinese companies to expand their business and wear the costs of reduced margins. Plainly though, these days are coming to an end and prices and lead times are blowing out.

When the Japanese were the premier brass builders in the late 1970s, the Koreans were on the horizon but at the moment there is no other country that has appeared as a viable alternative to China. It would be fair to say that the attempts to establish India as an alternative manufacturer have not been a resounding success.

From where I sit it would seem the only options for RTR buyers are to suck it in and absorb the price increases or become a lot more discerning and realistic in buying. Dare I suggest that more buying discipline may even be practiced.

While the RTR boom has had some good effects, it has also had some bad side effects as those NSW modellers who look at the stagnant (apart from RTR) NSW modelling scene.

Craig Warton
  anzac1959 Chief Commissioner

When are the GMs going to be delivered is the bottom line for me i dont really care what numbers, just sooner the better.

Ive seen load trial pictures of GMs on the short North.Their is a picture of GM37 on a load trial at Gosford in "Remember When II" very nice. GM15 in pink primer also on a load trial in 1956 in a 50's book from memory.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga


And they should take their business where precisely? Spares cost uber dosh compared the OEM parts regardless of the production place.
"Aaron"


I know not where. I believe Vietnam is already getting expensive and are no where "quality" ready.
However you could have asked the same question in 1975 about Japan, and in 1988 about Korea, and I bet some people did too Wink
Cheers
Rod
"comtrain"


Rod,

In railway modelling terms, Japan was well established by 1975 as a supplier of quality, albeit, brass models, whilst the swing to Korean manufacture was underway from at least 1981. The Mansfield Hobbies brass locos all originated in Korea (Samhongsa) whilst the glut of suppliers that sprang up in the 1980s mostly turned to Korean companies as well.

The Japanese were crucified in the 1980s because the koreans built a cheaper model, but also because they built a far more detailed model. Some of the Japanese companies lifted their game, but the story of railway modelling in 1980s Australia is essentially a mixture of local cottage industries and Korean Brass.

RTR has only really blossomed in the last few years because the Chinese happened to build a comparatively good model cheaply. The prices have been a due in a large part to unsustainably low labour rates and perhaps even due to a desire by the chinese companies to expand their business and wear the costs of reduced margins. Plainly though, these days are coming to an end and prices and lead times are blowing out.

When the Japanese were the premier brass builders in the late 1970s, the Koreans were on the horizon but at the moment there is no other country that has appeared as a viable alternative to China. It would be fair to say that the attempts to establish India as an alternative manufacturer have not been a resounding success.

From where I sit it would seem the only options for RTR buyers are to suck it in and absorb the price increases or become a lot more discerning and realistic in buying. Dare I suggest that more buying discipline may even be practiced.

While the RTR boom has had some good effects, it has also had some bad side effects as those NSW modellers who look at the stagnant (apart from RTR) NSW modelling scene.

Craig Warton
"CraigW"


In my case having lived through the history of white metal Protype and Dockyard R Class, the actual dates are not that important to me, but you are right, The cottage Industry in Australia, never really advanced that much. It seems that rubber moulds are still the choice of Australian manufacturers. And for various good reasons too.
Improved rubber and new casting material not making much difference and kit building, the only way to model all Australian prototype. We are indeed fortunate that SEM in Victoria and AR amongst others in NSW bit the bullet and produced flatpack kits way back when, still unfortunate that at least in SEM's case they were limited to eh? steam era Smile models.
But it is really annoying that the Chinese importers spent all their early times bringing out locomotives (speaking as a Victorian, here) one after the other, and just when they start to understand that a train is more than just motive power, the most expensive part of the train, has only just started to be produced and we are going to pay almost as much per wagon as the locomotives cost 10 years ago.
It took them much too long to discover the meaning of what a train actually consisted of.

Up until now I have managed fairly well to keep up with the releases, but I have recently become a lot more discerning. I have sold some "out of era" models, and decided against some models, to allow favourites in the future to be purchased. An example being the Auscision N and the XPT, both dropped to ensure the First Series T and the 422 and G/81 have room on my North East SG model railway.

Oh and of course room for 2 GM's.  Laughing
Cheers
Rod
  allan Chief Commissioner

The reason why locomotive models have led the way is because there are two markets for model locomotives, and only one for rolling stock.

How many locomotive models are just sitting on collectors' shelves? I figure that there are enough of most models to supply modellers' needs for a good many years to come, if at premium prices.

Austrains has produced 25,000 NR models!!!!!!!!! That's a lot of locos! And I'll bet that BGM has not sold anything like that quantity of five-pack well wagons. I've seen no sign, yet, of container five-pack flat wagons either, and doubt that I will, in H0 at least. A couple of NR locos can lift a couple of kilometers of wagons, and neither NR nor PN have run a lot of intermodal trains that were not loaded to capacity.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
The reason why locomotive models have led the way is because there are two markets for model locomotives, and only one for rolling stock.

How many locomotive models are just sitting on collectors' shelves? I figure that there are enough of most models to supply modellers' needs for a good many years to come, if at premium prices.

Austrains has produced 25,000 NR models!!!!!!!!! That's a lot of locos! And I'll bet that BGM has not sold anything like that quantity of five-pack well wagons. I've seen no sign, yet, of container five-pack flat wagons either, and doubt that I will, in H0 at least. A couple of NR locos can lift a couple of kilometers of wagons, and neither NR nor PN have run a lot of intermodal trains that were not loaded to capacity.
"allan"


Ha Ha
So what you are saying Allan, is the Collectors are the reason we are getting anything at all? That is pretty sad, I guess. And obviously true.
I remember when BGM started bringing out brass models at $300+ a loco, it was the collectors we had to fight off to get one for ourselves Smile
When the BGM boys were finished we were all astounded that Precision Models could stay in business offering $1200 models that required motorised wagons or vans to move any sort of a load.
But they sold in large quantities, didn't they?
All these years later another manufacturer is able to offer similar locomotives in brass for the same price (but made in China)
Cheers
Rod
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p

Improved rubber and new casting material not making much difference and kit building, the only way to model all Australian prototype.
"comtrain"


I would say that the polyurethane castings of today are a vast improvement over the ones from the early 80's.

I just got some of the IDR castings WOAX open wagons (formerly Scaleways). They are extremely clean and being one piece all you need to do is add the detail, screw in the bogies, add couplers and then paint.

The newer polyurethane casts from BGB are a noticeable improvement over the older polyester resin or epoxy from the early days.

Then there's the laser cut kits from AMK engineering. One of these built properly is the best example you can get of an ELX, AOOX, SGX, etc... The RTR ones from Powerline and Austrains are not even in the same ballpark with detail.

Railmotor Products have their range of hopper kits which are quite simple to make and look great. They've also just released the VQDW again as an improved laser cut kit (I still need to build mine)

VR products have their range of composite brass etch and plastic kits that look great when finished.

Model Etch are doing the SAR stock wagons in brass etch, as well as their excellent kit of the KMQ


We are indeed fortunate that SEM in Victoria and AR amongst others in NSW bit the bullet and produced flatpack kits way back when, still unfortunate that at least in SEM's case they were limited to eh? steam era Smile models.


The FQX, SFX flat wagons and VHGY hoppers are not even close to being steam era. The other common types of diesel era bogie vehicles were already done by BGB and other manufacturers.


But it is really annoying that the Chinese importers spent all their early times bringing out locomotives (speaking as a Victorian, here) one after the other, and just when they start to understand that a train is more than just motive power, the most expensive part of the train, has only just started to be produced and we are going to pay almost as much per wagon as the locomotives cost 10 years ago.
It took them much too long to discover the meaning of what a train actually consisted of.


I'm happy they did the locos first. This is what was not available in kit form or otherwise.


Up until now I have managed fairly well to keep up with the releases, but I have recently become a lot more discerning. I have sold some "out of era" models, and decided against some models, to allow favourites in the future to be purchased. An example being the Auscision N and the XPT, both dropped to ensure the First Series T and the 422 and G/81 have room on my North East SG model railway.


But another big difference is that 5 years ago it was pretty much Austrains on their own with Trainorama just starting up. Now there's Auscision, Eureka, On Track Models, SDS models, Powerline is releasing new stuff, etc... A more crowded marketplace with more releases also adds to the squeeze. I doubt it would be noticed anywhere near as much if you were just sticking to the Austrains releases for example.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga


But another big difference is that 5 years ago it was pretty much Austrains on their own with Trainorama just starting up. Now there's Auscision, Eureka, On Track Models, SDS models, Powerline is releasing new stuff, etc... A more crowded marketplace with more releases also adds to the squeeze. I doubt it would be noticed anywhere near as much if you were just sticking to the Austrains releases for example.
"VRfan"


Yes James
Well answered , and just shows we have different perspectives Smile
Although I did forget all about the SEM hopper and the two flats.
I have 20 SEM flats and about the same number of hoppers too. Sad

Bit surprised that you mentioned Powerline though, as they have been talking up new stuff longer than Trainorama have been talking about the GM's Very Happy  And yet they have a heap of dies and many willing customers who have pleaded for S Cars and G Mk2 for years, with little reaction albeit irritation Sad

Be interesting to see if competition is what will fix up our market pricing too.

I notice that a few duplications are announced by the new kids on the block. This should either put to rest the ideas that competition means a better model promoted by some.....
Or perhaps the real reason  that the Big 4 talk amongst themselves is that
duplication only brings down the prices as  they have to produce reasons why one model should be purchased instead of another.

Perhaps if injection moulding cannot produce interior detail cheaply, then open wagons like the ribbed ELX should be done a better way.
Would it be possible to mould the floor and ends and glue in the sides during assembly? of floor and sides and add the ends on during assembly?
The sides could be flat moulded with the interiors and the ends could be cast with interiors and released much easier as well?
Anyway Cheers
Rod
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p

Perhaps if injection moulding cannot produce interior detail cheaply, then open wagons like the ribbed ELX should be done a better way.
"comtrain"


The AMK kits are CNC milled ABS. However I don't know how viable that process would be for RTR wagons...

[bigimg]http://members.optusnet.com.au/vrfan/aoox.jpg[/bigimg]
  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
This one had me puzzled.  I was reading the posts and thinking not much relevant then I looked at the dates and they were posted in November 2010.  Thinks, what's occurring.  Then I see down the bottom a post on today's date by Resspoegign but it is all question marks.  No wonder it was hidden!

Curious,
John Bushell
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
This one had me puzzled.  I was reading the posts and thinking not much relevant then I looked at the dates and they were posted in November 2010.  Thinks, what's occurring.  Then I see down the bottom a post on today's date by Resspoegign but it is all question marks.  No wonder it was hidden!

Curious,
John Bushell
John_Bushell
Thanks John
I was wondering why I was being sent to a non existent post, in a thread almost 3 years old Smile

But just to make it worth while, Tony tells me he has paid for his GM's after sorting out his numbers a few weeks back. He also told me that the staff at Bob's told him they are arriving shortly, so the wait might almost be over Very Happy
Cheers
Rod
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There was a spam post above John's entry that brought the thread back. Spammer banned and post removed, making his post out of sequence.

Still let's hope for the GM's as I know one person waiting for over 7 years for his, it will be the loco of the decade, the people waiting for the "R" are waiting  far less by comparison !!!!

Regards,
David Head

ps will be good to know if orders will be taken for the GM's again...............when they come.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
There was a spam post above John's entry that brought the thread back. Spammer banned and post removed, making his post out of sequence.

Still let's hope for the GM's as I know one person waiting for over 7 years for his, it will be the loco of the decade, the people waiting for the "R" are waiting  far less by comparison !!!!

Regards,
David Head

ps will be good to know if orders will be taken for the GM's again...............when they come.
dthead
David ring Bob's
I added a GM to my order and so did Tony. It was the money they were not accepting (Damned if I know why??)  as far as I know.
Cheers
Rod
  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
David ring Bob's
I added a GM to my order and so did Tony. It was the money they were not accepting (Damned if I know why??)  as far as I know.
Cheers
Rod
comtrain
Rod,

Pity some others did not ask for money before a certain date to get an early bird price then run into problems or change the schedule so a new model jumps the queue and leaves us stranded.  No names no pack drill.

Best regards,
John
  crivens Junior Train Controller

I don't care what numbers there are...its not blue and gold...so I dont want one!!!
  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
I don't care what numbers there are...its not blue and gold...so I dont want one!!!
crivens
These came along before the blue and gold of Pacific National was ever dreamed of mate.

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