Dets to be removed from Trains next month

 
  Johnny_Walton Railcorp Crash Test Dummy No.1

Location: Flemington Maintenance Centre
Good question. Someone must have them...
A lot of the risk management stuff I've seen was commercial-in-confidence, no surprises there.
Pity we can't subpoena them for our strictly non expert review.

Instructions to staff will be easier to find.
I suppose if the rules are changed that will all be public, although there was no mention of that in the article IIRC.
HeadShunt

Yes I have been involved with the whole process,
Unfortunately I cannot yet comment as we are challenging the decision.

Jono.

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  theanimal Chief Commissioner

many of the emotive arguments here remind of the furore when they stopped blowing the horn on departure from the platform,

the doomsayers, both here and in the workplace, it was a dodgy risk assessment, it would kill people, yada yada yada

perhaps we need to accept that the people conducting the risk assessments do not want to be sued or held responsible for an incident

and act accordingly??
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
...
perhaps we need to accept that the people conducting the risk assessments do not want to be sued or held responsible for an incident

and act accordingly??
theanimal

I can assure you it's often easier not to making that omelette and stepping away.

At a risk workshop we spent most of an afternoon with one bloke on one aspect who just wouldn't (couldn't) accept how that assessment was stacking up. I suspect it had more to do with ramifications for his outfit Rolling Eyes

I've also been grilled by senior management - some get it, others don't.
  Piston Train Controller

Apparently detonators do not exist in railway terms any more.

According to Workcover Fact Sheet 12 they should now be referred to "Railway Track Signals"

It states:
"Railway track signals are sometimes referred to as
’railway detonators‘. This is a misnomer because

railway track signals are not
detonators and cannot be used as detonators."

So why use one word, when three will do the same job and confuse everybody?

  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

perhaps we need to accept that the people conducting the risk assessments do not want to be sued or held responsible for an incident
theanimal

I'm sure they do not want to be sued, but with certain recent events in mind I'd say they don't have too much to worry about unless it is a "major catastrophe" when everything really does get picked to pieces, because I am sorry to say that eveything does not necessarily get picked to pieces in court over smaller incidents like the death of a single employee. The corporate bodies and front line workers involved seem to be far more likely to cop it than individual bureaucrats who can show that they followed an established SMS process, probably because it is easier and more politically expedient to argue in court that worker X broke a rule than to dig into whether or not the rule provides sufficient controls and reduces risk SFAIRP - even if they did go that far I'd say the corporation would likely end up wearing it more than any individual risk assessor.



So why use one word, when three will do the same job and confuse everybody?
Piston
Apparently to standardise terminology using the manufacturer's name for their product, which is already in use elsewhere, for the national rules project. I can understand why the pyrotechnics industry would not call them detonators because that term has a well established meaning.

It still seems silly and I imagine few people in NSW would actually be calling them railway track signals.
Also known as fog signals, the Americans called them torpedos.
  Grantham Minister for Railways

Location: I'm with stupid!
It certainly seems silly to use a term for dets because of what other industries do...the same way we call an earth fault a "ground relay" because some of our diesels were built in America - doesn't take into account what other industries do!

Anyone know what the use by date on a pack of a dozen dets is? Wink

M
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
It certainly seems silly to use a term for dets because of what other industries do...the same way we call an earth fault a "ground relay" because some of our diesels were built in America - doesn't take into account what other industries do!

Anyone know what the use by date on a pack of a dozen dets is? Wink

M
"Grantham"

5 years, there is a date on the DET canister to assist train crews when doing their train preps ( for those not under lock and seal)
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Pity we can't subpoena them for our strictly non expert review.
HeadShunt
I can see the headlines now:

"Railway Enthusiast Forum Subpoenas RailCorp To Provide Documents"

"Claims That Enthusiasts Know Better Than Managers"

"Thousands Of Lives At Risk On Network!"

Laughing
  Goose Chief Train Controller

"Claims That Enthusiasts Know Better Than Managers"
Raichase
Have you met our managers?
  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
If security and vandalism are the problem, perhaps it would be wise to address those issues instead of leaving an empty cupboard for thieves to break into!
"Grantham"

I am in agreement. I see the issue as not necessarily the placement of detonators (or railway track signals) but rather the security which is seemingly not good enough that unauthorised people can regularly get their hands on these devices and maybe graf a train or two while they're there. (Also makes you wonder how people can have so much time on their hands but I digress!)

On the discussion about the usefulness of dets onboard trains, I principally agree with HeadShunt.

I think there are lapses in security that need to be dealt with in the discussion that those responsible should be having before we look at removing the dets.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Official advice has been published, for those who have yet to see it.

http://www.railsafe.org.au/editorialDocument.jsp?id=9897
  Silver S Set Junior Train Controller

It's a controversy whether to keep them or take them, it's better having more safety devices than less, but with all the vandals around it is a bit like a waste of time and money (to repair them).
I personally would probably use the money fixing them for designing new and better safety devices.
  Goose Chief Train Controller

I wonder what happens if a suburban goes outside of the metropolitan area?
Do they have to put the dets in the cupboard?
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I wonder what happens if a suburban goes outside of the metropolitan area?
Do they have to put the dets in the cupboard?
Goose
I imagine this means an end to suburban Tangaras operating to Springwood and Wollongong then.
  bernerd Junior Train Controller

Sadly, your imagining remains just imagining for now Raichase, Ts remain on that one Springers service and a handful down the South Coast everyday.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Sadly, your imagining remains just imagining for now Raichase, Ts remain on that one Springers service and a handful down the South Coast everyday.
bernerd
So does that mean all Tangara trains will carry detonators, or does that mean they'll be placed on the applicable trains on the day of the run? The afternoon Springwood service has been known to have a last minute set change in the past prior to departing HMC...
  HMC1989 Chief Commissioner

Location: Behind a desk.
The Springwood job plus the Newcastle runs will still have Dets out of HMC. We started removing them from all other sets on Monday.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The Springwood job plus the Newcastle runs will still have Dets out of HMC. We started removing them from all other sets on Monday.
HMC1989
So I presume, upon departing the sheds, the Springwood run will have detonators placed in the lockbox, and then removed that night when it returns? Hopefully there's no last minute set changes then!
  Highrise Assistant Commissioner

So I presume, upon departing the sheds, the Springwood run will have detonators placed in the lockbox, and then removed that night when it returns? Hopefully there's no last minute set changes then!
Raichase
For some reason, I really don't think that'll happen. It sounds like a recipe for an incident. All it takes is for someone to forget to put them in, for someone to forget to check their in, and they'll be high and dry when they need them.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
For some reason, I really don't think that'll happen. It sounds like a recipe for an incident. All it takes is for someone to forget to put them in, for someone to forget to check their in, and they'll be high and dry when they need them.
Highrise
Not really...

Odds of someone forgetting to put them in
X
Odds of some incident where DETS would be utilised during that period of missing DETs
X
Odds of all other safety measures failing and DETs making a difference
=
Very long odds
=
Very low risk
=
Acceptable

And why we don't spend our lives in a concrete bunker hiding under the bed.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
ARTC...



Exception to ARTC Network Rule ANTR 400


and Procedure ANPR 720


Effective from 0001 hours Wednesday 12 June 2012 until further notice, in exception to Network Rule ANTR 400 - Protecting Trains and Network Procedure ANPR 720 - Protecting Trains, the use of detonators (Railway Track Signals) when protecting an ARTC obstructed line will no longer be required by RailCorp train crews operating Electric Rollingstock on the RailCorp Metropolitan Network adjacent to the ARTC Metropolitan Freight Network (MFN) and Southern Sydney Freight Line (SSFL).

RailCorp have removed the mandatory requirement to carry detonators (Railway Track Signals) on Electric Rollingstock in the RailCorp Metropolitan Network, and it will not be possible for RailCorp train crews to protect an obstructed line as detailed in ARTC Network Rule ANTR 400 Protecting Trains and Procedure ANPR 720 Protecting trains.
...


http://extranet.artc.com.au/docman/DocManFiles/DocTypes/SAFE/Files/2-1920.PDF?3433161
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
For some reason, I really don't think that'll happen. It sounds like a recipe for an incident. All it takes is for someone to forget to put them in, for someone to forget to check their in, and they'll be high and dry when they need them.
Highrise
Of course, the alternative means removing them from only certain types of trains, and that's not how I read the instructions as published? That would mean leaving them in all Tangara trains?

Obviously, this will all be moot when the new timetable kicks the T's off any outer suburban running altogether...
  Goose Chief Train Controller

For some reason, I really don't think that'll happen. It sounds like a recipe for an incident. All it takes is for someone to forget to put them in, for someone to forget to check their in, and they'll be high and dry when they need them.
Highrise
The problem will be if a driver jacks up about it and delays the service.
  Highrise Assistant Commissioner

Of course, the alternative means removing them from only certain types of trains, and that's not how I read the instructions as published? That would mean leaving them in all Tangara trains?

Obviously, this will all be moot when the new timetable kicks the T's off any outer suburban running altogether...
Raichase
You would probably find that is what will happen. I can't say for sure, and for all intensive purposes they are being removed from everywhere.....


Not really...
Odds of someone forgetting to put them in

X

Odds of some incident where DETS would be utilised during that period of missing DETs

X

Odds of all other safety measures failing and DETs making a difference

=

Very long odds

=

Very low risk

=

Acceptable

And why we don't spend our lives in a concrete bunker hiding under the bed.
Cootanee


It's obvious you don't work for the company...
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

Instructions have been issued and arrangements made to ensure that trains that need them will be supplied with them at the appropriate places.
No more needs to be said , as those that require the information have already been informed and anyone who does not need to know has not.

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