Goodwood Junction Underpass

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Drainage is a problem everywhere (including the new ARTC line Seymour-Albury.  It deteriorated very quickly in the wet).  It's because a few years ago it suddenly kicked into a more normal rain pattern after many years of drought across Southern Australia, lots of people were totally unprepared for 'normal' rain like we used to have!

Here's hoping the new Goodwood Juntion is well-drained and not prone to flooding like the Goodwood Road underpass -

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  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Some of the auxilary drainage maybe Ian not the major works that where carried out under the track, I have'nt theard of the Belair line being closed prior to the current shut down to enable the relaid track to be lifted to allow works on the drainage under the track. This work was huge "Ag pipes" at least 600mm directly under the track to drain, I am sure the works you mention are where these pipes drain away from track that the "Sadvertiser" managed to highlight.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Here's hoping the new Goodwood Juntion is well-drained and not prone to flooding like the Goodwood Road underpass -
don_dunstan
More relevant underpasses to compare the Goodwood rail underpass against would be the Gallipoli Underpass (South Road under Anzac Highway) and Bakewell Underpass (Glover Avenue under James Congdon Drive and rail lines).

These two underpasses have barely any problems during/after heavy rain, and as such recent structures (opened in 2008 and 2009) which are performing well they are appropriate benchmarks for the new rail underpass. Both use pumps to remove water, and part of the work for the Gallipoli Underpass did include increasing the stormwater capacity of Brownhill Creek which would be the obvious destination for stormwater pumped out of the new rail underpass.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The Sleeps Hill tunnel is already Lowered on the standard gauge side but shutting down the Belair line is the only option to lowering the Adelaide Metro side of it. The Shepherd's Hill Road tunnel could be daylighted on both tracks and both parties would gain from it.

To all those that quote look at Sydney etc it might be better to look at Perth or Brisbane as the power here is going to be 25Kva same as Perth or Brisbane, Sydney or even Melbourne are only 1,500 volts rather low current against the rest of them. Higher voltages need more clearance all around the wire unless you want to cause a severe flash over or something.
"David Peters"

There is no benefit to the ARTC, I will save you the embarrassment of mentioning double stacking and tell you the major (effectively unavoidable) impediments to double stacking between Melbourne and Adelaide are far closer to Melbourne than Serviceton.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Drainage is a problem everywhere (including the new ARTC line Seymour-Albury.  It deteriorated very quickly in the wet).  It's because a few years ago it suddenly kicked into a more normal rain pattern after many years of drought across Southern Australia, lots of people were totally unprepared for 'normal' rain like we used to have!
"don_dunstan"

There must have been bigger flaws than that in the system, most likely cut backs and budget savings post design, the system would not have been designed around a lower than recently measured peak flow. Even if that peak had not been seen for years, the past peaks would be known and modelled, a few years of draught would not have been used by the model.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Eden Hills tunnel could be daylighted; one house has to go and a bridge put in place for Shepherd's Hill Road.
"kipioneer"

And Sleeps Hill tunnel?

Did anyone else notice the electronic sign on South Road during May advertising the removal of the right turn into Shepherd's Hill Road said "Sheppards Hill Road"?
"kipioneer"

Somewhere I have an email from the Adelaide City Recalcitrantcy (oops I mean Council) where three times they have referenced the 'Pultney Street and North Terrace intersection' - Where's that?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Some of the auxilary drainage maybe Ian not the major works that where carried out under the track, I have'nt theard of the Belair line being closed prior to the current shut down to enable the relaid track to be lifted to allow works on the drainage under the track. This work was huge "Ag pipes" at least 600mm directly under the track to drain, I am sure the works you mention are where these pipes drain away from track that the "Sadvertiser" managed to highlight.
alcoworldseries

AlcoWS

There were no political undertones in my comment nor was it based on the Sadvertiser.

A consulting firm who is currently my major client had to pick up the work. This client subconsults to Tracksure.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
There is no benefit to the ARTC, I will save you the embarrassment of mentioning double stacking and tell you the major (effectively unavoidable) impediments to double stacking between Melbourne and Adelaide are far closer to Melbourne than Serviceton.
Aaron
So SCT shouldn't be given the opportunity to double stack or use their high cube boxcars on this corridor because of an impediment to the east of their Melbourne terminal?
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
Thoroughly agree with you steam4ian on the last paragraph of your previous post.
Once the DEMU days are numbered and if a light rail system isn't put in place I can see the Belair service being a thing of the past unfortunately.
SAR520SMBH
This second SAR streamliner (very much  from the steam era) also endorses steam4ian's proposal that the Belair line should become light rail. I have
always believed so. Frequent trams with shorter distances between stops where warranted, less elaborate low platform stations and low voltage
overhead are preferable to a lower frequency heavy rail operation, with its dangerous voltage necessitating much greater clearances. I would think that
solid rail overhead through the tunnels would then be possible without lowering floors or opening out the tunnel at Eden Hills, even allowing for its
restricted 19th century clearances.

Maybe the city underground should also be light rail connecting Belair and Glenelg via an interchange under North Terrace at Adelaide Station, coming to
the surface just past West Terrace and on to the CBD of Port Adelaide and Semaphore. It too would be much cheaper to build than heavy rail and therefore
more likely to become a reality. Points could be changed by the motormen using a 'power on' or 'power off' mechanism already in wide use and normal
traffic lights with tram priority as the signalling system would make day to day operation much cheaper also.

The existing surface King William and North Terrace tram line could then be made into a city loop on a different route from that of the underground, which
would presumably run under Grote Street.  Lines along Currie-Grenfell Streets and North Terrace East, with branches northward to North Adelaide and
beyond, eastward to Norwood, southward to Unley, and eventually via the O'Bahn route to the suburbs in the North East, come to mind.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

"This second SAR streamliner (very much  from the steam era) also endorses steam4ian's proposal that the Belair line should become light rail."

No wonder 526 was my favourite engine!

The Duchess had her last outing the day I got married. My wife to be and my family would not let me even train chase it.

My wife hid the "Advertiser" the morning the picture of a part cut up 526 appeared. Crying or Very sad

Ian
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
My wife hid the "Advertiser" the morning the picture of a part cut up 526 appeared. Crying or Very sad

Ian
steam4ian
I have always wished that it had been the Duchess that was preserved rather than 520 (of course both would have been better). I have the fondest memories of riding behind her at speed. Unless my watch and distance marker counting was wrong, I once timed her at over 80mph during a run back from Peterborough round about Hallett with a very heavy train of VR passenger stock. My sleeper in the Port Dock Museum reads 'SAR 526, Duchess of Gloucester' with my initials underneath. Whatever we may or not agree upon, we have that in common.

Cheers,

Brian.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

If the Belair line is to be converted to light rail using the current alignment, it should be terminated at Mitcham, Torrens Park or Lynton. The time wasted taking the scenic route around Eden Hills and Bellevue Heights is bad enough for passengers in a proper train, but converting it so they spend the same time rocking and rolling around in a cramped tram would not be an improvement.

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again - if you want public transport usage to increase you need to make public transport better, not worse.

For it to be an attractive option to the average user, a switch to light rail would have to include some other gain that is far more significant than the amenity lost in switching from trains to trams.

You won't get any significant increase in speed by converting the current route (except perhaps by using F1 cars with hi-rail wheels) thanks to the alignment, and with the department's track record with procurement the trams ordered would probably induce nausea above about 50 km/h like the Flexity trams.

Without making the whole route double track (maybe with a few very short single or gauntlet track sections) you won't be able to improve the frequency much without hurting the speed, thanks to the dependence on scheduled crosses. Any increase in frequency wouldn't make a difference for the bulk of the users who do already have plenty of services during the peaks, and any frequency increase without a speed increase would just see the same passengers spread over more trams (instead of attracting new public transport users), minus those former passengers who discovered a car, bus, bike or unicorn was better than the train during the line's closure for conversion.

Therefore I can only come to the conclusion that light rail could only make an improvement if it allowed the construction of a new more direct alignment that cuts out the big loop (i.e. turns towards Blackwood after exiting Sleeps Hill Tunnel instead of towards Bedford Park) to allow competitive transit times, by way of some light rail systems allowing significantly steeper gradients than what is present on the current train route. Whatever route is chosen (under Wittunga Botanic Garden to approach Blackwood from the south-west or under Gulfview Road to approach from the north) would need a double track or twin tube tunnel of around 900-1200 metres, daylighting of the southern end of Sleeps Hill tunnel, trams capable of 6-7% grades, and expansion of the current tunnel (or a new parallel tunnel) to take a double track line.

Running into the CBD on a more direct route instead of travelling past it and doubling back would also be necessary for making a Belair light rail conversion work. That is annoying enough as it is, but it would only be worse doing that route in a tram lacking the top end speed.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Justapax

You wouldn't assess a new light rail route based on using old Bib and Bub A type sets so why judge the viability of a future Belair service on the diabolical "Flexitys"?

That "tram" patronage has grown in Adelaide is a tribute to the concept not the vehicles.

I am sure the same arguments you raised were aired when conversion of the Bay route was proposed in the 1920s.

A half decent LRV would have a considerably shorter trip time than a DMU and probably faster than an EMU. In that the Hills suburbs tend to collect those with "Green" aspirations the locals would welcome an efficient non polluting LRV system. It has worked overseas even in auto biased USA, why not here?

The trip would be shortened by joining the existing tram route at Goodwood allowing access to the centre of the city.
That the trams are slow down King William Street is a result of inadequate traffic light override for trams not the trams.

Regards
Ian
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
if you want public transport usage to increase you need to make public transport better, not worse.
justapassenger
How is bringing the Belair line into the CBD making it worse?

I suspect the case now is the Belair/Blackwood buses take the lion's share of the available custom from beyond Blackwood so Blackwood might be a more logical terminus than Belair.   This is because, while they might take longer than the train, they run through the CBD.

As for double track - Millswood to Mitcham (even Torrens Park), and Lynton to the Sleeps Hill tunnel is possible right now.

What about reinstating the old viaduct for the light rail route?   Double track between the tunnels and serve the top part of Panorama.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
There is no benefit to the ARTC, I will save you the embarrassment of mentioning double stacking and tell you the major (effectively unavoidable) impediments to double stacking between Melbourne and Adelaide are far closer to Melbourne than Serviceton.
Aaron
Ah but you are wrong Aaron if both were daylighted then ARTC has one less tunnel to maintain, so if that is not a benefit what is. You put your foot in your mouth there fella.
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Ah but you are wrong Aaron if both were daylighted then ARTC has one less tunnel to maintain, so if that is not a benefit what is. You put your foot in your mouth there fella.
"David Peters"

The cost of maintaining the tunnel? For real? The problem with containerised traffic is that you cannot tell if the trains are fully loaded or not.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
....

That "tram" patronage has grown in Adelaide is a tribute to the concept not the vehicles.
....
steam4ian
The really stupid thing was the redevelopment of the tram line didn't include a new stop on top of Goodwood station that allowed an interchange between the tram and train.  It would have been pricey but would have given Adelaide PT users the chance to catch the tram out of the city and meet their Seaford/Tonsley/Belair train there.

The alignment through to Belair and Aldgate is VERY 19th century, not very well suited to huge freight trains.  They spent big money on a new road through the Adelaide Hills but didn't bother with the railway line.  The best thing would be to remove freight trains from that alignment altogether but I can't see that happening given the cost of a hills bypass (as per discussions in another thread about this).

Trams have a huge future in Adelaide in my opinion, the topography and (in most places) wonderful wide streets and roads make it one of the most ideal cities in Australia for light rail bar Melbourne.  Adelaide owes a debt of gratitude to Colonel Light for that!
  rhino Chief Commissioner

Location: Oakbonk SA
What about reinstating the old viaduct for the light rail route?   Double track between the tunnels and serve the top part of Panorama.
"kipioneer"


Hi Neil, where was this viaduct you're talking about? How long ago was it?
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Hi Neil, where was this viaduct you're talking about? How long ago was it?
rhino
It was to the west of the existing Sleeps Hill tunnel: you can still see the footings in the valley to the south of the tunnel and the mouths of the tunnels at either end of the Sleeps Hill tunnel.

A cadastral map should show you the course of the line.

Last used in the 1910s and then demolished.
  rhino Chief Commissioner

Location: Oakbonk SA
Thanks Neill, I'll try to have a look for it next time I'm around there.
  mmciau Locomotive Driver

Location: Marion, South Australia
I understand there is a Mushroom Farm in the old tunnel complex
  rhino Chief Commissioner

Location: Oakbonk SA
I understand there is a Mushroom Farm in the old tunnel complex
"mmciau"


I believe there is also wine storage in one of them (locked, of course)
  2001 Moderator The Snow Lord

Location: The road jump at Charlotte Pass. Paxman Valenta on two planks.
Photo of the former Sleeps Hill Viaducts :

http://www.memoirphotos.com.au/products/australiana/trains-trams/-viaduct-sleeps-hill
  SAR520SMBH Junior Train Controller

From memory I believe the first sleeps hill tunnel is used for the wine storage and the second tunnel is where the mushroom farm now is/was.
I remember seeing something a couple of years ago on Postcards on channel 9 about the tunnels. There is quite a lot of history with the tunnels from World War Two where one tunnel was used for ammunition storage and the other tunnel was used to store valuable art and museum pieces as well as many other state valuables.

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