Return of the redhens and belair depot closure

 
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Doubt they will stable Heath slight chance they will go in there prior to turning back.
"alcoworldseries"

Or they could just turn back on the platform...

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  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Or they could just turn back on the platform...
Aaron
It all depends on the timetabling:  if, say, a down train crosses an up express at Blackwood, and an up stopper from Blackwood follows that express down the hill then the express will lay over in the siding.   That is what it is there for.

If on the other hand a train short works to Blackwood and no cross is involved then the train can reverse on the platform without using the siding.
  redhen424 Station Staff

Bring back bridgewater!!!!!!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Bring back bridgewater!!!!!!
redhen424
In order to make that trip to Adelaide take the same amount of time as the current public transport option, the train would need to cover the journey from Belair to Bridgewater at an average speed roughly the same as the race average speed of the Audi R18 which won the 24 Hours of Le Mans earlier this evening. And that's before you consider the problem of the railway station being out on the northern edge of the CBD while the buses serve the middle.

I think people in the Stirling-Bridigewater area would prefer to keep their current faster public transport instead of resurrecting a rail "service" that is not fit for purpose.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

In order to make that trip to Adelaide take the same amount of time as the current public transport option, the train would need to cover the journey from Belair to Bridgewater at an average speed roughly the same as the race average speed of the Audi R18 which won the 24 Hours of Le Mans earlier this evening. And that's before you consider the problem of the railway station being out on the northern edge of the CBD while the buses serve the middle.

I think people in the Stirling-Bridigewater area would prefer to keep their current faster public transport instead of resurrecting a rail "service" that is not fit for purpose.
justapassenger

Well said and double ditto for a rail "service" to Mt Barker.

But then we could make it a tram!!!!!!!!! (Ducks for cover)
Please don't pick up on this last comment, I am only joking.

Notice to All debaters,
Please consider the comparative rail distances and road distances.
Please consider the comparative speeds between the Freeway and the rail route.
Please consider whose state budget would pay for tilt trains, maglev or other engineering anomalies.
Please consider that not all journeys down to the plains end in the CBD.
Please consider that for those that do end in the CBD the ARS is not conveniently placed.
Please consider that trip time is important to time poor commuters.
Please consider that many private family commutes drop off pax at more than one destination.
  witsend Chief Commissioner

Location: Front RH Seat of a School Bus
Can we just commission the first Adelaide Metro Catapult between Adelaide and Mt. Barker? It'd be faster than the bus, car and train!
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
Can we just commission the first Adelaide Metro Catapult between Adelaide and Mt. Barker? It'd be faster than the bus, car and train!
witsend
Don't be silly, let's put in for a high speed train service that stops at Millswood, Linton, National Park, Long Gully and Littlehampton

Wayne
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Don't be silly, let's put in for a high speed train service that stops at Millswood, Linton, National Park, Long Gully and Littlehampton

Wayne
hosk1956

Maglev?
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
when was the blackwood siding implemented: during the signalisation of the line so broken down trains would not disrupt the passing loop and terminating trains could temporarily stable or was it implemented before that?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
when was the blackwood siding implemented: during the signalisation of the line so broken down trains would not disrupt the passing loop and terminating trains could temporarily stable or was it implemented before that?
Heath Loxton
It depends on what you mean by implemented... I seem to recall seeing track diagrams showing the siding has been there more or less since the early 1900s. 1910 I think was the date of the drawing, but that is only a recollection.
  rwatts Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
It depends on what you mean by implemented... I seem to recall seeing track diagrams showing the siding has been there more or less since the early 1900s. 1910 I think was the date of the drawing, but that is only a recollection.
Aaron
I'm pretty sure I recall it being used back in the early nineties (ie before standardisation of the interstate line) for topping up water on a steam locomotive.   The siding is relatively close to the old elevated water tank.   It may have been lengthened since with a view to stabling, because I don't recall it extending as far towards Belair as it does now.

There was also at least one other siding into what is now the extended east side carpark where for many years a wood yard operated (like other suburban stations such as Mitcham) as well as the platform 3 road on what is now the standard gauge alignment.

Richard.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

I'm pretty sure I recall it being used back in the early nineties (ie before standardisation of the interstate line) for topping up water on a steam locomotive.   The siding is relatively close to the old elevated water tank.   It may have been lengthened since with a view to stabling, because I don't recall it extending as far towards Belair as it does now.

There was also at least one other siding into what is now the extended east side carpark where for many years a wood yard operated (like other suburban stations such as Mitcham) as well as the platform 3 road on what is now the standard gauge alignment.

Richard.
rwatts

Aaron is right historically, old photos show it there probably before the line was duplicated in 1929. It is the reason the water tank is at a funny angle to the main line.

The siding was not there in the 50s 60s and 70s. The pictures of locos watering took place on the down main at the down end of the platform.

The siding was put back in when the BG was singled so the former up track could be converted to SG.

As a matter in passing; there used to be a trailing cross-over between up and down mains just at the up end of the down platform, I think it disappeared in the early 60s. There was a wire operated shunting disc for up movements from the down platform road.

Ian
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Maglev?
Milkomeda
I think my mention of the Audi LMP1 car up the thread deserves some more thought. The single-seat layout could do with a bit of work, but with far more power and torque on tap than an 3000 railcar it shouldn't be a problem to add a bit more weight. After all, it's only one step further than this engineering documentary I watched about a rail solution based on an Audi road car ...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkpCzp0CmjY

Razz
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Latest time table suggests that the Belair Depot will not be used.

The 5:10am ex ARS arrives at Belair at 5:44, 8 minutes before the 5:52 departure from Belair, this can be the same consist. An 8 minute layover allows enough time for the driver to have a bog and a fag and change ends (of the train that is). This pattern follows through the day with a 30 minute frequency with extras to/from Blackwood to fill in for a 15 minute frequency at peak times

Similarly the 6;16 ex ARS can make up the 7:13 ex Blackwood.

It is a good time table, as best as one could expect for that line, but disappoints with the hourly frequency in the evening. Two extra trains between 9:22 and 11:22 would flesh it out nicely

If the depot is not used I guess it can be, or is, closed.

Ian
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
If the depot is not used I guess it can be, or is, closed.

Ian
"steam4ian"

Hmmm, I thought this was established on page 1. Oh that's right, because a few had not heard of it, it was discounted...
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I have a copy of a plan of Blackwood dated Dec12/1912 and it shows this siding existing back then, this was in single track days. It was used as a loco line it had a water column, a pit and a coal platform on it. So it would be used to refill the steam locomotives that terminated there in the old days. So that they could return to Adelaide. I think this same plan in the book "The Overland Railway" well not quite the exact same plan but a plan showing the sidings at Blackwood in 1888. Interesting to note though that the plan for Blackwood in 1929 in this book does not show this siding at all though.

It might still have been there though but for some reason omitted from this plan. Neither of these two plans on page 241 of this book are official plans though so it could be an oversight on the part of who ever drafted them up for the book. The reason I say this is that even after the line was duplicated the locomotives on these local trips would still need water and coal etc as they would only be small power on these trains. Just an assumption on my part though.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I have a copy of a plan of Blackwood dated Dec12/1912 and it shows this siding existing back then, this was in single track days. It was used as a loco line it had a water column, a pit and a coal platform on it. So it would be used to refill the steam locomotives that terminated there in the old days. So that they could return to Adelaide. I think this same plan in the book "The Overland Railway" well not quite the exact same plan but a plan showing the sidings at Blackwood in 1888. Interesting to note though that the plan for Blackwood in 1929 in this book does not show this siding at all though.

It might still have been there though but for some reason omitted from this plan. Neither of these two plans on page 241 of this book are official plans though so it could be an oversight on the part of who ever drafted them up for the book. The reason I say this is that even after the line was duplicated the locomotives on these local trips would still need water and coal etc as they would only be small power on these trains. Just an assumption on my part though.
"David Peters"

If the 1912 plan is the one in 'The Overland Railway' then that is the plan I was recalling, pretty sure that's where I would have seen it, unless it is in 'Line Clear'.
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
It was for the servicing of steam locomotives. Having been a daily commuter from Madurta near Aldgate I have personal memories,
and even in the Steamranger era would look out for the still useable facilities there. I have both 'The Overland Railway' and 'Line Clear'
and would strongly recommend that those interested in the history of this vital link in our national system should read them.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
If the 1912 plan is the one in 'The Overland Railway' then that is the plan I was recalling, pretty sure that's where I would have seen it, unless it is in 'Line Clear'.
Aaron
Yes it is the one in "Line Clear, this is an official railway plan that was in a small plan book showing layouts of all stations existing at the time by lines. Yes it is a good idea to see if you can get these books if you want a proper history and insight into the Overland Railway line as it was called.
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
so was the blackwood siding reinstated when the line was single tracked?
what platform did STA trains use at belair between when the passenger services were cut back to belair and when the line was single tracked?
was the depot at belair always there or was it implemented when the line was single tracked?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The Blackwood siding was there before the line was single tracked from memory as I think it was used by the ARHS etc when they did trips there so that they did not foul up the regular train service while topping up with water. I could be wrong on this though so do not quote me.

Belair had 3 platforms in use when BG as Trains could arrive and depart from any of them. Usually the mainline was left clear though and the Island platform used but some through trains to Bridgewater stopped on the main platform one way or the other. When the line was standardised the current platform was used as it still is used.

The Belair depot was only there when the line was single tracked as in double tracked days most trains continued onto to Bridgewater to stable at the depot there. Before this there was a small goods yard there and a Turntable from memory.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
The Blackwood siding was there before the line was single tracked from memory as I think it was used by the ARHS etc when they did trips there so that they did not foul up the regular train service while topping up with water. I could be wrong on this though so do not quote me.

Belair had 3 platforms in use when BG as Trains could arrive and depart from any of them. Usually the mainline was left clear though and the Island platform used but some through trains to Bridgewater stopped on the main platform one way or the other. When the line was standardised the current platform was used as it still is used.

The Belair depot was only there when the line was single tracked as in double tracked days most trains continued onto to Bridgewater to stable at the depot there. Before this there was a small goods yard there and a Turntable from memory.
David Peters
David, I recall seeing photos with model 75s parked in the Belair yard, but I cannot ever recall seeing any there myself so the history of using Belair as a depot goes back quite a way, with a lengthy period on non-use until the new depot was built.

The track layout post SG allowed a loco to run around a head end train using the depot sidings.    It got used once or twice for Steamranger's F251 to run around some end loaders (twice is probably too often!).    I have also seen F251 in that siding at Blackwood.

Then very shortly after the government turfed Steamranger out of the Dry Creek depot and this working was never repeated.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Let's get some facts straight.

The siding leading of the down main at Blackwood was not there in the 50s & 60s and probably went about 1929 when the line was duplicated. See the pull diagram from the Blackwood cabin that appeared here some months back.

Belair had 4 through roads with the up main not accessible for down trains. Road 2 had no platform access and was continuous with the down main. Road 3 was the down platform which was looped off the down main. A compound crossing (double slip) gave access to road 3 and provided half of a trailing crossover to the up main. Road for looped off road 3 and ran around the back of the platform. Terminating trains used road 4 (platform 3) and the loco ran around by a up movement on road 3 and then crossed over on to the up track before returning to road 4. A small water stand pipe was located on road 4 about where a dolly would pull up with 3 cars. Of the down end on road 4 was a siding fan leading to the turn table and a siding with small goods platform. Down movements starting on roads 2 & 3 were controlled by a bracket semaphore with two dolls. Down movements back onto the main line to Long Gulley were controlled by another mechanical semaphore on a tall mast. There seem to be no fixed signal controlling down movements off road 4.

Up movements were controlled by a 3 position semaphore on road 1 and 3 position discs one for each of roads 2, 3 & 4.

In post steam days one evening train, 300 RH, set terminated at Belair, road 4 and pax for Bridgewater crossed to road 3 where a train from Bridgewater, single 400 RH, had terminated and then returned to Bridgewater. (I have caught it!)

Road 1 could NOT be accessed by down trains.

Like Neil, I have seen a photo of a Brill parked in the siding at Belair.

Regards
Ian
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
Let's get some facts straight.

Ian, were you a daily commuter on this line as I was during 1948, 49 and 50 when I travelled by steam and railcar from the other side of Mount Lofty?
Were you then, as now, a keen railway fan who yesterday at 84 walked (with difficulty) for the second time in two weeks to photograph progress on the Wayville section of the rebuilding of the South lines? If, as I suspect, you haven't first hand knowledge of what you write about in this thread, perhaps your reading of books needs to be a little more meticulous.

If you do have that experience, then you can question my memory as a trained historian in more areas of knowledge than just railways.  


The siding leading of(f) the down main at Blackwood was not there in the 50s & 60s and probably went about 1929........

I was born in that year, so I have no memory of alleged closures of sidings then, but I grew up from the age of 2 with the Melbourne line running past my back fence, and I have vivid memories of sidings and stations and abandoned Sleeps Hill viaducts and single line tunnels that most of you have never seen. I have actually walked the entire length of the original line through both tunnels to the up end abutment of the former viaduct.

As others have said above, the Blackwood siding was used for watering by Steamranger. I always looked out for it when travelling on their trains, as its shortness and the consequences of an engine going a little too far always intrigued me.

Regards
Brian.
steam4ian
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I do remember watching 621 getting a topup of that dangerous dihydrogen monoxide stuff at Blackwood in the early 90's before SteamRanger got cut off from Adelaide.

What I don't remember was the track layout at the time and the corresponding process, as in whether the platform track ran past the water column at the northern end for a tighter turn after the station or whether it was on a siding with a reverse move being needed after having a drink.

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