NE SG line, post gauge conversion

 
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Another point I will make is that the controlers have been putting the pass's on the fastest track north of Seymour regardless of its direction, ie they are treating both lines north of Seymour as a true bi-directional tracks. Its not uncommon to pass a freight going in the same direction on the other line.

woodford

Sponsored advertisement

  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
I really wonder whether rail standards are being dumbed down to actually reduce the capability of high speed operation for pass trains.
When the Swedish Tilt train ran in NSW between Canberra and Sydney, the line speed between Goulburn and Canberra was INCREASED
to 160 Kmh from the previous 140 kmh for the trial.
The line is nothing special at all, 50 KG/M rail on wooden sleepers , not even CWR.
The only change was new speed boards for the Tilt Train.

In WA, TransWAs prospector has been running at 160 KMH between Perth and Kalgoorlie for over 9 years on a daily basis.
The track there is 60 KGM rail on concrete, same as between Seymour and Albury, and also includes uncontrolled level crossings.
The line from Perth to kalgoorlie is primarily a freight line with only 2 pass services per day to kalgoorlie.


A National Rail regulator setting track standards can never work whilst the States still dream up their own rules.

Im not familiar with the situation in QLD, but I beleive the Rockhampton Trains run ay 160 KMH between Caboolture and Rockhampton.
Whats the track standard there?

The laws of physics are the same in all the States, so whats the basis of the differant speed limits.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The problem is that someone has to be accountable for all incidents on/near rail lines and I doubt a national regular has any more protection from the long arm of the law than state ones . Also its not just about the weight of the rail or what sleepers they're tied to . The track bed has to be good meaning rail on sleepers on something better than soft mud or suspended in thin air . I'm quite certain that 68 Kg rail on 50TAL sleepers doesn't guarantee you a good ride at any speed if the sub base is full of mud water or nothing . Pointless taking the X across Bredalbin Plains at 160 if you can't stay in the seat and the customers are getting hysterical , doable but acceptable ?
Um no , lots was done to take the tilt train down to Cantbra and elsewhere . It ran via the East Hills and had a magic clear path created wherever it went - political pull - of some sort . Track certres moved platforms shaved back , cost a tidy sum .
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

From my experience from travelling on both the Albury train and the XPT there are two points to keep in mind. The first is the track has had speed limits on it now for quite a few years, specially between Seymour and Melbourne. The second point is Seymour to Melbourne is a single line and I have yet to be on a SG pass that has not been delayed for some time, anything between 5 and 25 minutes I might say. Pass's are usually given priority, but given that a two pass's must cross south of Seymour in the morning, there's little one can do about it. Its clear the controlers are communicating with the drivers to tell them where a cross is to take place and to drive accordingly.

In this "little black duck's" opinion ARTC and the operaters are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

woodford
woodford
Woodford you make a good point.

I wonder if the timetabling can be adjusted slightly to improve the situation. As from looking at the Vicsig website, there are several crossing points for trains on this section.
I read in railway digest today that a tilt train would be 20% faster over the entire journey that the XPT. This was based on a simulation using the Sydney to Newcastle route as an example. The topography on that line is more challenging than SCS to Seymour. So a tilt train (in future) should bring the SCS to Albury time down to less than 3 hours.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
I really wonder whether rail standards are being dumbed down to actually reduce the capability of high speed operation for pass trains.
When the Swedish Tilt train ran in NSW between Canberra and Sydney, the line speed between Goulburn and Canberra was INCREASED
to 160 Kmh from the previous 140 kmh for the trial.
The line is nothing special at all, 50 KG/M rail on wooden sleepers , not even CWR.
The only change was new speed boards for the Tilt Train.

In WA, TransWAs prospector has been running at 160 KMH between Perth and Kalgoorlie for over 9 years on a daily basis.
The track there is 60 KGM rail on concrete, same as between Seymour and Albury, and also includes uncontrolled level crossings.
The line from Perth to kalgoorlie is primarily a freight line with only 2 pass services per day to kalgoorlie.


A National Rail regulator setting track standards can never work whilst the States still dream up their own rules.

Im not familiar with the situation in QLD, but I beleive the Rockhampton Trains run ay 160 KMH between Caboolture and Rockhampton.
Whats the track standard there?

The laws of physics are the same in all the States, so whats the basis of the differant speed limits.
MD

Guess this will really have you scratching your noggin Wink

"The ARTC Safety Committee have approved the resumption of normal track speed for CountryLink services, subject to their restrictions of 120km/h when passing over public level crossing with passive (Stop signs) protection."

http://extranet.artc.com.au/docman/DocManFiles/DocTypes/SAFE/Files/2-1909.PDF?642366541
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Caboolture to Rockhampton is mostly 53kg and 60kg rail on concrete sleepers and Rockhampton to Townsville is 60kg rail on concrete sleepers. Townsville to Cairns is mostly 41kg on steel sleepers. 20-tonne axle load throughout with 26.5-tonne axle load between Gladstone and Rockhampton.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Woodford you make a good point.

I wonder if the timetabling can be adjusted slightly to improve the situation. As from looking at the Vicsig website, there are several crossing points for trains on this section.
Duncs


Probably will not help, you still have to get all trains to run on time, this is likely to be very difficult for the long distance services.

There are 3 loops between Seymour and Craigeburn, these are Donnybrook, Kilmore East and Tallarook. The length of all these is around 7000 metres each



I read in railway digest today that a tilt train would be 20% faster over the entire journey that the XPT. This was based on a simulation using the Sydney to Newcastle route as an example. The topography on that line is more challenging than SCS to Seymour. So a tilt train (in future) should bring the SCS to Albury time down to less than 3 hours.




Something else to think about..........

A major problem for country services in Victoria is access to Southern Cross, Currently all country lines run into an all mighty mess within 10 kilometres of centre of Melbourne. The RRL project will help some lines one hopes, but the SG access for Southern Cross stinks to put it mildly. Its possible for all VLines services comming from the NE to lose 10 minutes within 6 kilometres of SC due to lack of a path. Until this is cured its something of a waste of time trying to shave off a few minutes here and there by slight increases in speed. Note, one can get from Broadmedows to SC in 25 minutes via Albion, you can also take over 40 minutes depending on the trafffic particularly between Tottenham and SC.

Note, the VLine service usually sits around 100 to 110kph between Tottenham and Broadmedows.
The speed limit from the Bunbury st tunnel to SC is only 30kph, this is pathetic.

woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Note, the VLine service usually sits around 100 to 110kph between Tottenham and Broadmedows.
The speed limit from the Bunbury st tunnel to SC is only 30kph, this is pathetic.

woodford
woodford
I agree 30kph is pathetic! That's where the fix has to start. Get it up to 60kph at least.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
I agree 30kph is pathetic! That's where the fix has to start. Get it up to 60kph at least.
Duncs

May as well as you won't see a tilt train anytime soon - but that's another fred/dream.

However it does seem incongruous that ARTC and Countrylink can agree to 145kph with 120kph across passive crossings in Western NSW (not the best engineered line for that matter)
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I agree 30kph is pathetic! That's where the fix has to start. Get it up to 60kph at least.
"Duncs"


Lack of a SG mainline ! just freight yard sidings/roads.

The RRL between SSS and South Kensington sould be made dual gauge and the South Kensington - Sims Street Junction goods line upgraded to double dual gauge, this would keep passenger trains out of the freight terminal / loco depot.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Lack of a SG mainline ! just freight yard sidings/roads.

The RRL between SSS and South Kensington sould be made dual gauge and the South Kensington - Sims Street Junction goods line upgraded to double dual gauge, this would keep passenger trains out of the freight terminal / loco depot.
Nightfire
An excellent idea
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
With the amount of rain in the north east this week and the promise of more to come, It'll be interesting to see if the mud-hole problems return.

Mike.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

With the amount of rain in the north east this week and the promise of more to come, It'll be interesting to see if the mud-hole problems return.

Mike.
The Vinelander
The "moment of truth" is at hand!
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Agri people seem to think we are heading into drought.

ARTC will probably run out of money before this track will be mud-hole proof (as if it ever was Exclamation).
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Agri people seem to think we are heading into drought.


cootanee


For the past more than 20 years we have had unreliable rainfall, only a handfull of years have had adequate rainfall at the correct times.
See also below.

For an encore performance see..................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_Hanrahan




ARTC will probably run out of money before this track will be mud-hole proof (as if it ever was Exclamation).


For the past couple of years we have had some of the highest rainfall recorded, most falling in summer. ARTC started fixing mudholes not long after the BG Albury train was suspended most of these holes have never returned.....................

woodford
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
For the past more than 20 years we have had unreliable rainfall, only a handfull of years have had adequate rainfall at the correct times.
See also below.

For an encore performance see..................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_Hanrahan




For the past couple of years we have had some of the highest rainfall recorded, most falling in summer. ARTC started fixing mudholes not long after the BG Albury train was suspended most of these holes have never returned.....................

woodford
woodford
Exactly...

No doubt that much (most) track ARTC inherited in Victoria, across NSW and into Queensland really needed to be redone from the foundations up. However considering the funding and political reality that was never going to happen.

ARTC always maintained that sleeper condition was its greatest immediate risk and thus priority, with ballast and drainage issues to be addressed over time. The drought breaking to the extent it did was unfortunate timing. Of course the could'a, should'a, would'a brigade were right all along Rolling Eyes
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

There is no capacity for sg trains on the RRL between Spion Kop Junction and  South Kensington .  The 20 trains per hour capacity will be fully taken up over South Western, Western & Northern VLP services . When Melton goes electric the slots released will be re-allocated over  Geelong, Ballarat & Bendigo .  So that is why no dg as far as Sth Ken and onto Sims St Jct.

However there is sufficient capacity on the Nth Melbourne flyover (both tracks as dg) to handle VLP bg ex Plats 1 - 8 , VLP sg Albury & sg Interstates as the South Western VLP will run largely off 15/16 .  The bg VLP trains ex all plats at Southern Cross do not merge till Spion Kop Junction .

So the plan splits the broad and sg trains pretty well away from Metro, and it is only the Shepparton & Seymour bg that interact with Metro within the Inner area .  The longer term intention is to run these trains via Upfield (where there is spare capacity) and release slots to Metro on the route via Essendon .  

The RRL arrangements at Southern Cross and over the North Melbourne flyover will allow parallel sg arrivals & departures as far as the Down end of the flyover, whereas the existing layout is one train only on sg at a time between Sims St Jctn and No.1 Signal Box.   Given the current number of sg trains the sg single line through the Dynon yards is not a serious problem . If and when  Shepparton went sg then (i)  dg can easily be provided into platform 3 South at Southern Cross off the dg runaround road, and a second sg track could be laid through the Dynon Yards, creating double sg track all the way out to Tottenham Yard .
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I went down to Melbourne a few days ago, the train was dead on time at Seymour and only 4 minutes late at Southern Cross.

The ride was quite good, not really up to the standard of the VLocity's but they are a  much later vehicle.


So I have finally decided that's its for woodford, I started on this journey around march april 2009, the track is now in good condition, in far FAR better condition than it has been for a long long time.


My intention was to give a reliable, accurate and simply to understand report on the regauging, great effort and quite a bit of expense went into achieving this. One of the major reasons was to give all a better understanding of the work the track construction people. I do not regard I succeeded in this in the end. In fact given the prejudish's that exist against most governement agencies and ARTC in particular, such an understanding was likely always impossible to achieve but I had to try.

I willl keep an eye on the list till the end of june in case of any questions, then that will __REALLY__ be the end.

just an interested passer by.......
woodford
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I went down to Melbourne a few days ago, the train was dead on time at Seymour and only 4 minutes late at Southern Cross.

The ride was quite good, not really up to the standard of the VLocity's but they are a  much later vehicle.


So I have finally decided that's its for woodford, I started on this journey around march april 2009, the track is now in good condition, in far FAR better condition than it has been for a long long time.


My intention was to give a reliable, accurate and simply to understand report on the regauging, great effort and quite a bit of expense went into achieving this. One of the major reasons was to give all a better understanding of the work the track construction people. I do not regard I succeeded in this in the end. In fact given the prejudish's that exist against most governement agencies and ARTC in particular, such an understanding was likely always impossible to achieve but I had to try.

I willl keep an eye on the list till the end of june in case of any questions, then that will __REALLY__ be the end.

just an interested passer by.......
woodford
woodford
Don't plan for your retirement just yet Mr Woodford...a mate of mine did an Albury 'rest' this week... IE from the drivers cab he can see the mud-holes returning...and though he said the east line is OK, but nowhere near perfect, the west line speed limited to 100KPH from Seymour to Albury is NOT ok with plenty of mud-holes.

Like he said, AARTC still haven't done the the track rectifications properly as they haven't done the drainage properly. If you put lipstick on a pig...it's still a pig Exclamation

Mike.

Postcript: with the timetable slowed to such an extent that the 1937 Spirit of Progress had a faster running time than the current Albury trains, it's no wonder your train was 'on-time.'
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I went down to Melbourne a few days ago, the train was dead on time at Seymour and only 4 minutes late at Southern Cross.

The ride was quite good, not really up to the standard of the VLocity's but they are a  much later vehicle.


So I have finally decided that's its for woodford, I started on this journey around march april 2009, the track is now in good condition, in far FAR better condition than it has been for a long long time.


My intention was to give a reliable, accurate and simply to understand report on the regauging, great effort and quite a bit of expense went into achieving this. One of the major reasons was to give all a better understanding of the work the track construction people. I do not regard I succeeded in this in the end. In fact given the prejudish's that exist against most governement agencies and ARTC in particular, such an understanding was likely always impossible to achieve but I had to try.

I willl keep an eye on the list till the end of june in case of any questions, then that will __REALLY__ be the end.

just an interested passer by.......
woodford
woodford
Woodford, I, for one, will be sorry to see the end of your regular, reliable and informative posts. They have provided a record of the Way and Works activities in the NE for a long time. We do not often see reports of this nature and certainly not comprehensive ones like yours. We usually get nothing but if we do get anything it is usually a load of political spin. Many thanks.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Don't plan for your retirement just yet Mr Woodford...a mate of mine did an Albury 'rest' this week... IE from the drivers cab he can see the mud-holes returning...and though he said the east line is OK, but nowhere near perfect, the west line speed limited to 100KPH from Seymour to Albury is NOT ok with plenty of mud-holes.

Like he said, AARTC still haven't done the the track rectifications properly as they haven't done the drainage properly. If you put lipstick on a pig...it's still a pig Exclamation

Mike.

Postcript: with the timetable slowed to such an extent that the 1937 Spirit of Progress had a faster running time than the current Albury trains, it's no wonder your train was 'on-time.'
The Vinelander

I came onto Railpage for a specfic purpose, to report on the regauging, I decided to extend this to include the track upgrade. I have no real interest in day to day operation of the railways, this in  the end is political and I have ______NO_______ time for the current major politcal parties, they would sell there souls for any kind of advantage, not the up standing citizens they are supposed to be.

This purpose has now been completed.

Both VLine and ARTC are putting continueing (for the present anyway) maintence into the NE line. ARTC has two large teams one at Seymour the other at Wang to look after the line. Over the past few years I have discussed the long term condition and maintence of the lines with three long time maintence staff and also two similiar drivers. All said mud holes have always been a problem and always in the same places. The reason they gave little problem is they were repaired quickly. I have seen the new crews in action and these people are no mugs, so hopefully we will not see an early return to the previous era, ie no maintence at all.

The 1954 time table gives the time from Seymour to Wodonga as 2 27 minutes, the current time is 2 hours 20 minutes, back in 1954 it was stopping at 11 more smaller stations which would add round 15 minutes, making it around 10 minutes faster. The XPT currently takes 2 hours 3 minutes from Seymour to ALBURY, stopping twice. In 1937 the S class steamers where in use, the draw bar HP would have been far higher than the current N class loco's, the higher power would have been offset by somewhat higher train weight and plain bearings on all vehicles. The current N class do not have enough power to run a faster service, axle power being around the 2000 bhp mark, there ride at speed is also very poor.

I state the above to show comparing times over the years is a real mine field it being VERY diffficult to compare apples with apples.

Many thanks to all for the support over the years, I do ___NOT____ like communcating via forums and such as these are usually the home of poor behavior and I find such behavior intolerable. Railpage on the whole has been good.

I wish all well,
woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A last comment we are never going to get a 3 hour stopping all stations service from Southern Cross to Albury, with a 130kph line speed, even with VLocity style vehicles there is simply not enough time. The major limitation being from Southern Cross to Seymour, there is the suburban area and the great dividing range to get over. To get to Seymour in under 1 hour 10 minutes one would have to spend much money (and I do mean MUCH) to achieve this time.

woodford
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I think it was always going to be a case of money , and not only in the infrastructure . I doubt an N Class was ever going to have the horsepower to pull tall enough gearing to drag even light trains up to high speeds quickly enough . Speed off the mark and up the range isn't there with Ns .
Faster is easy but the powers that be obviously can't or won't pay for it .
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I came onto Railpage for a specfic purpose, to report on the regauging, I decided to extend this to include the track upgrade. I have no real interest in day to day operation of the railways, this in  the end is political and I have ______NO_______ time for the current major politcal parties, they would sell there souls for any kind of advantage, not the up standing citizens they are supposed to be.

This purpose has now been completed.

Both VLine and ARTC are putting continueing (for the present anyway) maintence into the NE line. ARTC has two large teams one at Seymour the other at Wang to look after the line. Over the past few years I have discussed the long term condition and maintence of the lines with three long time maintence staff and also two similiar drivers. All said mud holes have always been a problem and always in the same places. The reason they gave little problem is they were repaired quickly. I have seen the new crews in action and these people are no mugs, so hopefully we will not see an early return to the previous era, ie no maintence at all.

The 1954 time table gives the time from Seymour to Wodonga as 2 27 minutes, the current time is 2 hours 20 minutes, back in 1954 it was stopping at 11 more smaller stations which would add round 15 minutes, making it around 10 minutes faster. The XPT currently takes 2 hours 3 minutes from Seymour to ALBURY, stopping twice. In 1937 the S class steamers where in use, the draw bar HP would have been far higher than the current N class loco's, the higher power would have been offset by somewhat higher train weight and plain bearings on all vehicles. The current N class do not have enough power to run a faster service, axle power being around the 2000 bhp mark, there ride at speed is also very poor.

I state the above to show comparing times over the years is a real mine field it being VERY diffficult to compare apples with apples.

Many thanks to all for the support over the years, I do ___NOT____ like communcating via forums and such as these are usually the home of poor behavior and I find such behavior intolerable. Railpage on the whole has been good.

I wish all well,
woodford

Not nit picking, but just for the record the Spirit cars had roller bearings from the start as far as I know but the wooden cars on the Albury express had plain bearings ie about 50% of the train which IIRC was usually about 7 or 8 vehicles.
woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

just trying to make the point if one is after good quality information, generalisations and cherry picking data WILL nearly always lead on astray.

After running a simulation on the issue in fact its likely a Vlocity based train could make it albury in very close to 3 hours, but the service would have absolutely no room for error and therefore would almost certainly always be late.

Just as a farewell comment, I'd always hoped my passion for accuracy and clarity would have rubbed off on others, it appears few really wish to make the significant effort required Sad.

woodford

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.