XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
...

In short I think ARTC needs - at very least -  to be given a slightly different charter: to either more aggressively go about recovering it's own costs - or perhaps a charter more focused on maximising ultilisation rather than just providing a level playing field.
djf01
"ARTC's corporate charter is to:
  • Provide seamless and efficient access to users of the interstate rail network;
  • Pursue a growth strategy for interstate rail through improved efficiency and competitiveness;
  • Improve interstate rail infrastructure through better asset management and coordination of capital investment;
  • Encourage uniformity in access, technical, operating and safe working procedures; and
  • Operate the business on commercially sound principles"

http://www.artc.com.au/Content.aspx?p=112


I don't believe the charter precludes that. Passenger Priority is a different matter !

It will be telling to see now the current TfNSW Access review will turn out. ARTC, the Feds and various operators have made submissions.

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  tim617x Station Staff

I think the best replacement for the XPT would be the trains that Eurostar uses between London and Paris. The government should straighten out the tracks and use the speady trains! http://www.paris-tours-service.com/upload/Paris-to-London-Tour.jpg Just paint them with countrylink colours!
  tim617x Station Staff

I think the best replacement for the XPT would be the trains that Eurostar uses between London and Paris. The government should straighten out the line and use the speady trains, which can travel up to 340km an hour! http://www.paris-tours-service.com/upload/Paris-to-London-Tour.jpg Just paint them with countrylink colours!
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
I think the best replacement for the XPT would be the trains that Eurostar uses between London and Paris. The government should straighten out the line and use the speady trains, which can travel up to 340km an hour! http://www.paris-tours-service.com/upload/Paris-to-London-Tour.jpg Just paint them with countrylink colours!
tim617x

No. the feds dont want a HSR and let alone afford it. the state cannot afford it. the best solution is a tilting train loosely based on the QR tilt trains, Virgin Super Voyager ( I a big fan of Virgin Tilting Trains as many may know), etc.
tilting trains should be able to reduce speeds and once the track up upgraded (for mainly freight use as thtats the most lucurative market) speeds should be reduced ecen more
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
I think the best replacement for the XPT would be the trains that Eurostar uses between London and Paris. The government should straighten out the line and use the speady trains, which can travel up to 340km an hour! http://www.paris-tours-service.com/upload/Paris-to-London-Tour.jpg Just paint them with countrylink colours!
tim617x

Better hurry up, before most of the population is in an aged care facility and hardly any PAYEs left Wink

Love the word 'Just'
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I think the best replacement for the XPT would be the trains that Eurostar uses between London and Paris. The government should straighten out the line and use the speady trains, which can travel up to 340km an hour! http://www.paris-tours-service.com/upload/Paris-to-London-Tour.jpg Just paint them with countrylink colours!
"tim617x"


I'll come up with a serious response when I can hack one together.
  tim617x Station Staff

What the government also needs to do is increase speeds on the long distance trains, it should only take 8 hours max to Brisbane and 6 hours max Melbourne. Also the government needs to make the line to Brisbane go via lismore, Byron bay and the gold cost line and make a line to Adelaide via Griffith and it should take a max of 13 hours to get to Adelaide, also make a line from Sydney to Eden, and reopen the line to Baradine via Mudgee.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
What the government also needs to do is increase speeds on the long distance trains, it should only take 8 hours max to Brisbane and 6 hours max Melbourne. Also the government needs to make the line to Brisbane go via lismore, Byron bay and the gold cost line and make a line to Adelaide via Griffith and it should take a max of 13 hours to get to Adelaide, also make a line from Sydney to Eden, and reopen the line to Baradine via Mudgee.
tim617x
Qantas and Virgin do those trips in 1-2 hours. Whats the point of investing all that money to increase it speeds when the plane is still faster after upgrades. Its either Julia or Tony in a couple of months time build the damm HSR or we do nothing and repalce the XPT when they die. You either beat them (the planes) or join them.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
What the government also needs to do is increase speeds on the long distance trains, it should only take 8 hours max to Brisbane and 6 hours max Melbourne.
"tim617x"
The distance by rail between Sydney and Melbourne is approximately 960km. This means that to do it in six hours you need an average speed of 160kmh-1; considering this is the theoretical top service speed of the XPT, this is impossible, even before accounting for the fact that the permanent way requires extensive work to bring it up to a standard where you can reliably run this kind of speed.

Also the government needs to make the line to Brisbane go via lismore, Byron bay and the gold cost line and make a line to Adelaide via Griffith and it should take a max of 13 hours to get to Adelaide, also make a line from Sydney to Eden, and reopen the line to Baradine via Mudgee.
"tim617x"
omg

Qantas and Virgin do those trips in 1-2 hours. Whats the point of investing all that money to increase it speeds when the plane is still faster after upgrades. Its either Julia or Tony in a couple of months time build the damm HSR or we do nothing and repalce the XPT when they die. You either beat them (the planes) or join them.
"fixitguy"
When the HSR has a price tag of around a hundred and fourteen billion dollars, and a projected return on investment of less than 1%, I'm forced to conclude that beating the plane is a non-starter.

Would you like to use Points Plus Pay, sir?
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
When the HSR has a price tag of around a hundred and fourteen billion dollars, and a projected return on investment of less than 1%, I'm forced to conclude that beating the plane is a non-starter.
Watson374
agreed. thats why we wait for XPT to die and find a replacement. be it tilting trains, normal trains, coaches, planes or whatever they see fit.

Would you like to use Points Plus Pay, sir?
Watson374
yes please
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
agreed. thats why we wait for XPT to die and find a replacement. be it tilting trains, normal trains, coaches, planes or whatever they see fit.
"fixitguy"
We'll see! I quite like how we've resigned ourselves to this fate ;P

yes please
"fixitguy"
I see you saw what I did there.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I think the best replacement for the XPT would be the trains that Eurostar uses between London and Paris. The government should straighten out the line and use the speady trains, which can travel up to 340km an hour! http://www.paris-tours-service.com/upload/Paris-to-London-Tour.jpg Just paint them with countrylink colours!
tim617x

There is more than a thread on this. Over 25 years, numerous reports and investigations by both sides of govt, HSR has never been found to be a commercially viable option even with a subsidy. The proponents blame govt "lack of vision", conveniently ignoring lack of like for like examples any where else.

This thread is aimed at more conventional options that involve sharing with freights.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Now, if I could just figure out how to photo shop on some Hi-Road rail guide wheels ...

  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
What the government also needs to do is increase speeds on the long distance trains, it should only take 8 hours max to Brisbane and 6 hours max Melbourne. Also the government needs to make the line to Brisbane go via lismore, Byron bay and the gold cost line and make a line to Adelaide via Griffith and it should take a max of 13 hours to get to Adelaide, also make a line from Sydney to Eden, and reopen the line to Baradine via Mudgee.
tim617x

Pity "The Government" needs to do a hell of a lot - peoples expectations are limitless but not their willingness to pay tax.
Heard the price of some cancer treatment drugs - I mean just because someone may live a bit longer Shocked
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Now, if I could just figure out how to photo shop on some Hi-Road rail guide wheels ...

"djf01"
LOL

Borrowing from the trip report, which I'm trying to keep focused on the TR and not the macro issue...

I don't entirely disagree but I think the priority should be lowering grades.

6 or 7 mostly modest deviations on the DOWN should get the ruling grade on the main south from 1:40 to 1:60/1:66, and another 4 (including 2 on the UP) would get it to 1:80.  It's 20-30-km of new track that *should* enable greatly increased tonnage and/or reduced freight rates => more revenue for ARTC and perhaps even funds to look at genuine alignment easing.  In some cases, but not all, this would result is shorter/straighter alignments, at least in the DOWN direction.

On the NCL there are really only 2 1:40 grades: the Cowan Bank and Fassifern (and that's only 1km with a flat approach).    Red Hill @ Coffs is 1:70, Border Loop is 1:75.  There is a new 2-3km 1:50 grade at Lawrence Rd (between Grafton and Casino) that from the looks of things was relatively recently installed I presume as part of a curve easing program.  The Fassifern Bank has already been deviated in the UP direction (adding 5min to everyone's run time) and the logical deviation here is a restoration of the original alignment but with a deeper cut at 1:80.  

None of this will do much harm but not much good for CL type services.
"djf01"
I take it that this is without introducing additional sharp curves?

What would help a tiny bit - and something I think is a worthwhile project - is restoration of the Hilltop loop line for PAX services as part of sparking to Mittagong.
"djf01"
I agree, but if you're going to electrify to Mittagong, is there a reason why you're not extending it to Moss Vale?

The big problem with an 8hrs Syd-Mlb run is conflicts with other services.  That's a lot of potential freight tonnage capacity being sacrificed to shave a few hours off a still large air/ground speed differential.  Getting the Syd-Mlb runtime down to lt or eq 11 hours for PAX and ~12 hours for freighters means CL could reliably operate Syd-Melb with just two dedicated sets, rather than the rotation they have to use now.
"djf01"
What about long additional 'lanes' to allow overtaking of freight without stopping either? I'm curious, because I seem to recall this being implemented in the north (e.g. Minimbah).
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I take it that this is without introducing additional sharp curves?
Watson374

As a foamers project on a cold drizzly Sunday afternoon I went through my Curve & Grade diagram and listed all the hills and had a look on Google maps sat.  Ironically, many of the DOWN direction hills are already on deviations that eased grades in the UP direction only.    I expect that given modern earthworks are relatively cheaper than track laying the deviations would be both for the most part shorter and straighter.


I agree, but if you're going to electrify to Mittagong, is there a reason why you're not extending it to Moss Vale?
Watson374

Mt Gibralter Tunnel.  Mossy isn't that big a centre anyway.  It's a Railway junction, but Bowral is the centre of the Highlands, and IIRC Mittagong is the biggest pop wide but I could be wrong.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
As a foamers project on a cold drizzly Sunday afternoon I went through my Curve & Grade diagram and listed all the hills and had a look on Google maps sat.  Ironically, many of the DOWN direction hills are already on deviations that eased grades in the UP direction only.    I expect that given modern earthworks are relatively cheaper than track laying the deviations would be both for the most part shorter and straighter.
"djf01"
Fair enough.

Mt Gibralter Tunnel.  Mossy isn't that big a centre anyway.  It's a Railway junction, but Bowral is the centre of the Highlands, and IIRC Mittagong is the biggest pop wide but I could be wrong.
"djf01"
According to the gospel-truth source of information on the Internet, Wikipedia, Bowral has a population of 11K+ and Mittagong only 8K+.

I've also heard a rumour that all the tunnels are supposed to be blown up and opened into cuttings. I have no idea how true it is, but the stated reason was to permit double-stacking.

I suppose it would be ideal then to electrify to Bowral, and you and I know someone who'd love the idea! Oh, armchair...
  tim617x Station Staff

I think when the government designs the new model they need to make it either on LPG or natural Gas, tht way it will be cheaper to run and more eco friendly!
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
I think when the government designs the new model they need to make it either on LPG or natural Gas, tht way it will be cheaper to run and more eco friendly!
tim617x

Probably put a roof over ANZ Stadium first - when someone can afford it Wink
  tim617x Station Staff

LOL!!!Laughing They can afford it, its just our politicians are so screwed up that they wont do these simple things! Wink
  tim617x Station Staff

I personally think that the XPT's and Xplorer's should have been given only first class seats, just only have a seat option or a sleeper. when i travel with Countrylink after the Staff come round to mark me off, I go up to first class and sit their!
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
I personally think that the XPT's and Xplorer's should have been given only first class seats, just only have a seat option or a sleeper. when i travel with Countrylink after the Staff come round to mark me off, I go up to first class and sit their!
tim617x
Ah, an admitted fare evader. Nice to come onto a railfan forum and brag about fare evading. Nice one. Tallies nicely with your other rubbish posts.

Dave
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I personally think that the XPT's and Xplorer's should have been given only first class seats, just only have a seat option or a sleeper. when i travel with Countrylink after the Staff come round to mark me off, I go up to first class and sit their!
"tim617x"



Ah, an admitted fare evader. Nice to come onto a railfan forum and brag about fare evading. Nice one. Tallies nicely with your other rubbish posts.
"thadocta"
+1
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

My latest XPT design concept in my war on bogies:  Seating for 240 or 350 for the CountryLink version, complete with DMU "plugin".

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5470/9228074354_2e87bc1933_o.png

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52964239@N08/9225304375/
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My latest XPT design concept in my war on bogies:  Seating for 240 or 350 for the CountryLink version, complete with DMU "plugin".

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5470/9228074354_2e87bc1933_o.png

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52964239@N08/9225304375/
djf01
And this fits through the loading gauge outside the current DD routes?

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