Belair line improvements

 
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
well the belair line would get used more if millswood, hawthorn and clapham were served during the weekday peak with the blackwood services stopping there as per "people for public transport". their statistics state that transadelaide (adelaide metro) is missing out on at least 5000 passenger trips per month by not serving them at least in peak times!

secondly it would be nice to pull into an extended eden hills loop that has been extended by 40m and a blackwood station with a longer loop and not a stupid siding that is no longer needed due to track machine storage being available in the belair sidings!
"Heath Loxton"

5000 trips per month eh? Do you realise how many people that isn't? In the scheme of things that is zero patrons, and here's the non difficult math that DPTI, TA, STA etc know that you don't.

If we take 22 working days in a month (arrived at by taking 4 weeks with 5 work days +2 to get to 30) we get 227 ish trips a day, these will most likely be return so we can say we have 113 passengers (plus about 60% of a person) per day, spanning three stations gives us (effectively) 38 people per day who want to use one of the closed platforms.

All the money for upgrading the platforms (they'd have to be DDA etc), money to change the timetables, blah, blah, blah and we're going to gain 38 people per day... Um, that's not going to happen.

The 38 can walk/drive/bus/I don't actually care what they do to another station or work etc.

Those numbers are generous, because we've assumed those 5000 trips only comprise working people on weekdays. If 20% of those 5000 trips are weekends then the weekday loading sees about 30 people per station per day and the weekend sees about 18 people per station per day.

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  SAR520SMBH Junior Train Controller

Surprise surprise, something different, another rant about opening the 3 closed stations.
Heath, it's never going to happen! As has been stated time and time and time and time again the trip is already long enough without these stations in use and it's a complete waste of money to repair/update them for miniscule, if that, patronage numbers.
I can't see the loops being extended either Heath. Extending them just because, and I quote, "it would be nice" ain't going to cut it. Extending the loops you talk about, is not, I'll say it again, is not required with the railcar lengths run on the Belair line.
I'm with you justapassenger, I'd love to see some data with this information in regards to the 5000 trips per month. 5000 is massively, massively over exaggerated.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
5000 trips per month eh? Do you realise how many people that isn't? In the scheme of things that is zero patrons, and here's the non difficult math that DPTI, TA, STA etc know that you don't.

If we take 22 working days in a month (arrived at by taking 4 weeks with 5 work days +2 to get to 30) we get 227 ish trips a day, these will most likely be return so we can say we have 113 passengers (plus about 60% of a person) per day, spanning three stations gives us (effectively) 38 people per day who want to use one of the closed platforms.

All the money for upgrading the platforms (they'd have to be DDA etc), money to change the timetables, blah, blah, blah and we're going to gain 38 people per day... Um, that's not going to happen.

The 38 can walk/drive/bus/I don't actually care what they do to another station or work etc.

Those numbers are generous, because we've assumed those 5000 trips only comprise working people on weekdays. If 20% of those 5000 trips are weekends then the weekday loading sees about 30 people per station per day and the weekend sees about 18 people per station per day.
Aaron
Out of that 38 a day as well if you count out who will travel free interpeak like pensioners etc, using  a seniors card it will make it seem all the worse. So there is no way it would even pay just going on these figures even at 5000 a month.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
There was a need to make the service more reliable on a single track so some stations were closed.   The chosen stations were closed because they were close to another station and/or close to a much more frequent alternative transport.

The one exception to spacing was Torrens Park which serves Scotch College.

There is a frequent bus service on Sussex Tce/Hilda Tce (200) with a 10 minute headway in peak and 15 minutes inter-peak, and 30 minutes at night and weekends.    Unley Park station is only 500m from Hawthorn.

The 200 bus passes the other side of the block of flats next to the Hawthorn station and runs the length of King William Road and King William Street servicing Victoria Square and Pirie/Waymouth Streets with many offices.

I see no reason to open Hawthorn; rather both platforms should be bulldozed.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I see no reason to open Hawthorn; rather both platforms should be bulldozed.
"kipioneer"

And hopefully that would silence some of the 'reopen them' crowd, out of sight out of mind and all that.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
And hopefully that would silence some of the 'reopen them' crowd, out of sight out of mind and all that.
Aaron
That is a good idea actually if they want a service that stops every 300 to 500 metres they should take the bus.
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
well check out where i got my information from:

http://www.ppt.asn.au/pubdocs/belairsurvey.pdf
http://www.unley.sa.gov.au/webdata/resources/.../Item_328_CSP_June_2010
http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/35338/sub089.pdf?
http://www.ppt.asn.au/pubdocs/mmichell.pdf?

so i have done research:
you may need to copy those links into your address bar as i have not posted web addresses on here before Smile
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The thing is though Heath statistics etc can be manipulated to a certain degree to get the outcome required at times. It happens everywhere though at some time. It all sounds good on paper till you break it all down into it's relative sections like Aaron did. 5000 sounds a lot bu t as Aaron showed it quickly gets less if you divide it down for each day. I honestly dont think they would put in a bus stop really for less than 38 people a day.

There were surveys done by the then STA and as has been said with closer and quicker options available to them there the public will use them. There is no great outcry from the public around these stations because they now realise that the bus is quicker and takes them right into the city as well, or where they actually want to go, so that is something else that makes taking the bus better.

No one really wants to change modes of transport to get somewhere unless it is absolutely essential. You are probably the same you want to go somewhere so you choose the path of least resistance,or in your case the trip with as less changes of modes as possible. Take this for instance I want to go to Glenelg say, I take the train to the city, here I have two options I can take the train to Goodwood and change to a tram with a bit of a long walk, or I walk up the steps at the station and catch the next tram going to Glenelg. Most will walk up the stairs to get it, it is the shortest and quickest way and you know you are on the tram then before most of the crowd get on.

So really opening stations that now are not really needed is not a good idea at all, trains have to stop and let people on and off and the public are in no hurry usually, so a minute or two here and a minute or two there, can add up to 10 minutes or more late at the end of the run. The public here have never had short dwell times at platforms like they do interstate, go to Melbourne or Sydney and it is a case of the quick or you get left behind. Been to both of them and yes nearly did get left behind on more than one occasion as well.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
well check out where i got my information from:

http://www.ppt.asn.au/pubdocs/belairsurvey.pdf
http://www.unley.sa.gov.au/webdata/resources/.../Item_328_CSP_June_2010
http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/35338/sub089.pdf?
http://www.ppt.asn.au/pubdocs/mmichell.pdf?

so i have done research:
you may need to copy those links into your address bar as i have not posted web addresses on here before Smile
"Heath Loxton"

I feel dumber for having followed and read the documents at the end of those links. Although I did like this comment in the final one
The only concession to modern needs has been the closure of the three stations in 1995 that had patronage figures so low that a single taxi could have handled the number of passengers offering for each train.
"www.ppt.asn.au/pubdocs/mmichell.pdf

Pretty much confirms my analysis of the numbers.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
I feel dumber for having followed and read the documents at the end of those links. Although I did like this comment in the final one

Pretty much confirms my analysis of the numbers.
"Aaron"


You should have read the first one Aaron, it gives a figure of 3667 "missed pasenger trips" per month (not 5000) ......... the waffles on about what "Millswood" passengers would use the train for including the "Le Mans Car race"!!! {That happend only once IIRC} but that made me look for a date.....
Further down it's quoted " It takes an average of only 20 seconds per station to allow passengers to board or alight. The major alteration of timetables being considered for the entire rail system in 2001 will provide an opportunity to resume servicing the three stations."
So Heath's the first reference is a 13 year old document!
The last link is dated 14th aug 1999
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Even if what has since evolved into the World Endurance Championship did return to the Adelaide Street Circuit (as a discerning motorsport fan who can cope with engines having other than eight cylinders I would be in favour), the best way to get there from Millswood would be to cross the road and hop on a bus, or hop on a bike and ditch the walking part completely. Obviously the wafflers trying to get publicity from name-dropping that event were not motorsport fans, if they were they would know that no train station is anywhere near the circuit.


Heath, please report to the Crystal Brook Primary School (the nearest to Redhill I believe) and write out "Google is not a research tool" 500 times.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
You should have read the first one Aaron, it gives a figure of 3667 "missed pasenger trips" per month (not 5000) ......... the waffles on about what "Millswood" passengers would use the train for including the "Le Mans Car race"!!! {That happend only once IIRC} but that made me look for a date.....
Further down it's quoted " It takes an average of only 20 seconds per station to allow passengers to board or alight. The major alteration of timetables being considered for the entire rail system in 2001 will provide an opportunity to resume servicing the three stations."
So Heath's the first reference is a 13 year old document!
The last link is dated 14th aug 1999
"Pressman"

I missed the Le Mans race reference, and yes that did happen once, I was there!

I did however see the reference to the 'lighting left intact' - that got me thinking, then I saw reference to the survey in November 2000, then I spotted the date at the end of the respondents comments 28/11/00.
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Credit were credit is due! Heath has done some research, and this is the bit were everyone else can politely discuss the reliability of the sources, instead of telling Heath to go back to school.
I personally would use the station closest to SASMEE (Millswood) but then again I am only one person every ocassional Sunday.
  Seldom_21 Junior Train Controller

Location: South Australia
As a user of the (soon to return) Belair line, a current trip time of approx 30 mins would most likely exceed the 35-40 min mark. A long, and slow trip...

Let me humor your senses: short distances between stops are usually indicative of tram lines and buses, not trains. I live about 8 mins (drive) from the Blackwood railway station, therefore about 35 mins from the city by car - 3 buses that service the area. Now i'm not complaining, but those living Hawthorn, Millswood have a shorter traveling distance in general, albeit traveling to the city in their car or traveling to the nearest train station if they are incapable to walk, or, as the problem goes can't be bothered. I agree in extending train and tram lines for those who live further out, eg Seaford, but I don't agree opening disused stations to those who already have many more options than us who choose to live further out.

Just my 2 cents

Seldom
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
well from my results and research i have concluded that the best solution is to operate 3 or so inbound morning peak services and 3 or so afternoon peak outbound services that service millswood, hawthorn and clapham as adelaide metro are providing a fast service to people who live at the end of the line in expense of those inner city dwellers that have to rely on crowded buses that usually run late due to competing traffic and endless roadworks on main roads. this timetable would give the necessary quick trip to the outer belair suburbs but the inner city commuters would not be forgotten in the main patronage times of morning and afternoon peak.

the main station to reopen would be millswood as that is near a large college and is located 1km away from any nearby stations. then hawthorn and clapham should get reopened as they are inner city neighbourhoods with reasonably large populations.

win win for everyone!

the infrastructure requirements would be:

millswood and hawthorn:
1) new lighting
2) repainted shelter (with seats installed)?
3) new voice annunciator
4) new station signage
5) new platform markings (white lines, etc)
6) removal of fencing that prevents passengers accessing the station

clapham:
1) new lighting
2) new shelter (current shelter was removed recently for some unknown reason!)
3) new voice annunciator
4) new station signage
5) major platform work with a new surface layer and new platform edge (platform edge was removed during belair line upgrade for some unknown reason!)
6) overpass access path to platform structurally repaired

millswood and hawthorn would be the cheapest to recommission but clapham would require major works or even rebuilding!

and why is clapham railway station neglected: overgrown, shelter removed and platform edge removed while the other 2 closed stations are maintained free of overgrowth, shelters painted green regularly and platforms left as they are?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Now i'm not complaining, but those living Hawthorn, Millswood have a shorter traveling distance in general, albeit traveling to the city in their car or traveling to the nearest train station if they are incapable to walk, or, as the problem goes can't be bothered.
Seldom_21
Not to mention that the majority of public transport users living close to the Hawthorn or Millswood stations already have quite adequate (and frequent) public transport options that don't involve travelling to another rail station.

If capability to walk longer distances is a consideration, the existing bus stops suddenly become a far better mode of public transport because they go to places people actually want to go. My grandparents tick this box, and they live not far from the former Hawthorn station. Even if it was reopened at great public expense they wouldn't use it (even with a fully subsidised ride) because the places they want to go in the city regularly are the Central Market and Adelaide Town Hall, both of which are closer to the relevant bus stops than the Adelaide Railway Station exit is from where the train stops.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Not to mention that the majority of public transport users living close to the Hawthorn or Millswood stations already have quite adequate (and frequent) public transport options that don't involve travelling to another rail station.

If capability to walk longer distances is a consideration, the existing bus stops suddenly become a far better mode of public transport because they go to places people actually want to go. My grandparents tick this box, and they live not far from the former Hawthorn station. Even if it was reopened at great public expense they wouldn't use it (even with a fully subsidised ride) because the places they want to go in the city regularly are the Central Market and Adelaide Town Hall, both of which are closer to the relevant bus stops than the Adelaide Railway Station exit is from where the train stops.
justapassenger
Most people think this way Justapassenger and you are right the railway station at Adelaide is that far removed from some things it is not funny and like has said the bus will take you straight to and almost at those places that JAP mentioned. Sure you can get off a train and onto the tram but how many people really want to do this just getting to work or simply going to the market or something, you do it one way with nothing and have to return with a load of stuff to cart home. And as at the end of your outing you are probably tired you want a quick trip home to put up your feet and have a cuppa.
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
buses can only be a good transport alternative if the following 4 criteria are met:

1) frequent running of services with more buses
2) on time running of services with dedicated bus lanes on main roads
3) suitable, modern and comfortable buses instead of the old uncomfortable buses
4) suitable bus stops with shelters, tactile grip, timetables and in an area with good lighting for safety.

if buses are frequent, on time, modern and service reasonable bus stops then buses can be a great way to service a growing city as a bus is cheaper to purchase than a train, can access more areas, cheaper to maintain and can be rerouted depending on the dynamics of the city. so don't forget the bus as they can work really well in cities like adelaide!

PS: i am not against rail now i just wanna show you that buses CAN and DO work!!!
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
This is firmly in "Armchair Operator" territory.

I don't want to see any more "Re-open/introduce this/that" type threads. Everyone else has clearly had enough of them.

Let me make it very simple for the OP (Heath Loxton):

Don't ask about this sort of thing on RP again, as it simply is never going to happen. The population of South Aus doesn't warrant the return of country passenger services, or the re-opening of the stations/railway lines. If it were feasible financially for the state of South Australia, and there was a demand for it; then it would have already happened. That is simple fact.

Also, the people you are arguing with know what they are talking about, and are realistic enough to know that what you are proposing simply won't happen. You are annoying too many people with your ill-though out questions, and arguments. The time to stop is now.

The sooner you comprehend this, the better.

Locked.

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