Sydney Trains Suspends ASB

 
  Bugnash Station Master

Got an email today saying ASB has been suspended until further notice, apparently there has been some ASB related incidents in the past few days.

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  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
It looks to have been in force since July 1.
  Goose Chief Train Controller

Is there any way that I can find information on that?

I haven't heard anything.
  waxyzebu Locomotive Driver

Three serious incidents in the last five weeks or so (the third happened yesterday), plus other previous incidents and the Kogarah fatality (which has been thoroughly thrashed out on this forum). Something has to be done.

ATSB: Safeworking Breaches at Blackheath NSW on 13 June 2013 and Newcastle NSW on 13 July 2013


Is there any way that I can find information on that?
I haven't heard anything.
Goose
Apparently the suspension only applies to engineering work, not train crew or station staff.
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
Three serious incidents in the last five weeks or so (the third happened yesterday), plus other previous incidents and the Kogarah fatality (which has been thoroughly thrashed out on this forum). Something has to be done.

ATSB: Safeworking Breaches at Blackheath NSW on 13 June 2013 and Newcastle NSW on 13 July 2013


Apparently the suspension only applies to engineering work, not train crew or station staff.
waxyzebu
Correct, took out a ASB for lost property retrieval a couple of days ago no noticeable changes for the procedures for that , although apparently we did receive a e-mail yesterday stating that we were to contact the signal box first, who then contact RMC. (Which I though had always been the case. Confused)
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Can't they work out a way to ensure the block or section is clear before applying a block?
How about asking the next signaller has the previous train cleared the section? Most of the metrop is track circuited these days and a good operator will see where the train is in relation to the worksite KM.
Safeworking for dumbo's cant be made any easier.
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
Can't they work out a way to ensure the block or section is clear before applying a block?
How about asking the next signaller has the previous train cleared the section? Most of the metrop is track circuited these days and a good operator will see where the train is in relation to the worksite KM.
Safeworking for dumbo's cant be made any easier.
Junction box
No system is fool proof, all about get the risks minimised to lowest possible level.
  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Regardless, you should always ask if there's a train in your section. As Blackadder said - minimising risks.
  FullSeries Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
You are required to ask if there is a train between the protecting signals/points and the worksite when establishing an ASB. If you haven't, you are an idiot, and your ASB is technically not valid.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

You are required to ask if there is a train between the protecting signals/points and the worksite when establishing an ASB. If you haven't, you are an idiot, and your ASB is technically not valid.
FullSeries

True... if only more people realised this.


a good operator will see where the train is in relation to the worksite
Junction Box

Maybe not everyone falls into the category of "good operator", but it has already been proven that a signaller can overlook a train approaching the worksite, and when it happens there is very little backup to protect workers on the line. Also, if there has been a misunderstanding about the location of the worksite, rather than overlooking an approaching train the signaller could be looking somewhere else.



Safeworking for dumbo's cant be made any easier.
Junction Box

But it probably can be made safer.

There is simply too little in the way of safeguards with this rule. That's only my opinion, but it's shared with a lot of people. It would be a stretch to suggest that the latest string of incidents surprised many industry insiders.
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
A lack of proper training coming back and biting in the backside?
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

I would be most interested to know how many of the above posters are actually Signallers or Area Controllers and if they are not, how do they know what is involved from that side of things when any form of Trackwork method or Authority is being issued. I think from my own point of view, that not knowing exactly what happens when these are occuring certainly makes me unqualified to make pronouncements about these subjects. How about waiting until official investigations have been conducted and staff involved either disciplined or absolved of blame.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

I would be most interested to know how many of the above posters are actually Signallers or Area Controllers and if they are not, how do they know what is involved from that side of things when any form of Trackwork method or Authority is being issued. I think from my own point of view, that not knowing exactly what happens when these are occuring certainly makes me unqualified to make pronouncements about these subjects. How about waiting until official investigations have been conducted and staff involved either disciplined or absolved of blame.
Throughwestmail

If you are "not qualified" to make comment, you're doing the right thing by leaving it to those who are. There are reasons why you'll probably never know exactly whom everyone is, so don't even go there.

As for making specific comment on specific incidents before the completion of investigations, most of what I have seen in this thread so far has been pretty general.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

A lack of proper training coming back and biting in the backside?
Fireman Dave
That's one factor affecting ASB, among others. Training issues are not restricted to one operator or entity, either - it seems to be more or less industry-wide.
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
Is it though? After reading a number of reports there appears to be one common factor.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Is it though? After reading a number of reports there appears to be one common factor.
Fireman Dave
Is what what?

Training is a major factor in more ways than one, from signallers to protection officers, and the people working under their protection (we saw that at Kogarah). It's definitely not the only issue but not every issue plays a major role in every incident. On the other hand, you can train people as much as you like, but if the system has holes in it things are still more likely to go wrong and when they do the outcome is more likely to be unpleasant. The trouble with NSW investigation reports - I'm thinking of one, in particular - is that for whatever reason they don't always cover every issue in as much detail as they could, possibly because it's not easy for investigators to verify all the information they receive and possibly for political reasons. Those outside the industry wouldn't know any better.
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

If you are "not qualified" to make comment, you're doing the right thing by leaving it to those who are. There are reasons why you'll probably never know exactly whom everyone is, so don't even go there.

As for making specific comment on specific incidents before the completion of investigations, most of what I have seen in this thread so far has been pretty general.
HeadShunt
So from these remarks we can assume that you are a Signaller or Area Controller, qualified in Signaller safeworking and fully trained in one of the Sydney Trains complexes or stand alone signal boxes. If that is the case then , maybe you can tell us about the pressure that some of these staff work under, so that we can then be aware of what may be happening at the same time as requests for ASB are being made. I would assume that they are not sitting back with their feet up, waiting for the odd phone call to come for an ASB.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller


So from these remarks we can assume that you are a Signaller or Area Controller, qualified in Signaller safeworking and fully trained in one of the Sydney Trains complexes or stand alone signal boxes. If that is the case then ,
"Throughwestmail"


No, you may assume that I am qualified to comment. Nice try.
  EMD-SD45X Chief Train Controller

Is it though? After reading a number of reports there appears to be one common factor
Fireman Dave

The incident on the DN Shore yesterday, the "hairylegs" asked if the section was clear and the box confirmed it was, then oops.
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
The incident on the DN Shore yesterday, the "hairylegs" asked if the section was clear and the box confirmed it was, then oops.
"EMD-SD45X"


Sort of confirms what I was thinking about the common factor. It's not train crews or hairy legs/contractors or station staff.
  waxyzebu Locomotive Driver

Sort of confirms what I was thinking about the common factor. It's not train crews or hairy legs/contractors or station staff.
Fireman Dave
Would you care to elaborate on this single common factor?


Also, the ATSB has amended its investigation to include the most recent incident.

Safeworking Breaches at Blackheath on 13 June 2013, Newcastle on 13 July 2013 and Wollstonecraft 17 July 2013
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Most of the metrop is track circuited these days and a good operator will see where the train is in relation to the worksite KM.
Junction box

Only non-track circuited lines in the CityRail area are:

* Carlingford line past Rosehill except level crossings.
* Electric staff sections past Kiama to Nowra, except for level crossings.

New stabling sidings such as Macdonaldtown and Cronulla and Auburn are fully track-circuited, and all points are power worked.

New up stabling sidings at Hornsby between platforms and Bridge St. overbridge probably are, but this is not known for sure.

Old stabling depots such as Hornsby MC, Flemington MC and Mortdale MC are not.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
New stabling sidings such as Macdonaldtown and Cronulla and Auburn are fully track-circuited, and all points are power worked.
awsgc24
Not all of the points at AMF are powered, a lot are manually operated by the yardmaster.
  Highrise Assistant Commissioner

Only non-track circuited lines in the CityRail area are:

* Carlingford line past Rosehill except level crossings.
* Electric staff sections past Kiama to Nowra, except for level crossings.

New stabling sidings such as Macdonaldtown and Cronulla and Auburn are fully track-circuited, and all points are power worked.

New up stabling sidings at Hornsby between platforms and Bridge St. overbridge probably are, but this is not known for sure.

Old stabling depots such as Hornsby MC, Flemington MC and Mortdale MC are not.
awsgc24
Hornsby UP Yard is fully track circuited with power operated points.
  waxyzebu Locomotive Driver

How much of the recent trouble with ASB has been in the non track-circuited patches of the network?

None.

Maybe track circuits are not being used to their full potential for worksite protection.

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