Marion Station Underpass

 
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
Strangely enough (because of the spelling) i vaguely remember an incident at Marino station however I can't seem to find any record of it or remember exactly when - mid-late 90's at a guess - memory hasn't been the best lately.  The reason why I 'remember' was because I went to school with the offender.

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  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

The old underpasses with folded ramps were very dark and had obscure corners.

An underpass with open access and monitored by CCTV would be safer and more cost effective than controlled gates. There could even be panic strips on the walls which prioritised the CCTV cover.

100-120 persons, sounds like "renta crowd" with the local (dis)member trying to show he is doing something. He is so useless he even has to mount a petition to get anybody in the government of which he is a member to listen to him. Must be an election coming.

Ian
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
The underpass at Gawler was removed because drunks used it as a latrine, that and the roof leaked. Given the pub over the road from the station, there was never going to be a solution to that first problem.
  2001 Moderator The Snow Lord

Location: The road jump at Charlotte Pass. Paxman Valenta on two planks.
Hmm... More dithering, and perhaps another job for the guy who does the artist impressions :

(my bolding)

From the Adelaide Now website.

COMMUNITY opposition to a proposed $3.5 million underpass at Marion Rail Station from nearby residents has forced a rethink of the plan.
More than 140 residents who rallied at a public meeting on Saturday (July 6) called on the Transport Department to review its plan to replace an existing overpass with a new underpass, as part of the electrification of the Noarlunga train line.

Most of the people at the meeting cited safety and disability access concerns and the felling of dozens of mature trees lining the rail corridor for their opposition.
The meeting was called by Marion ward councillor and Liberal candidate for the state seat of Elder, Carolyn Habib. The underpass would be 4m wide and 30m long, and located 180m north of the existing overpass, near Alison Ave.

One resident told the meeting the underpass would become a haven for "unsavoury" activity.
"What people are concerned about is not only the safety and mobility issues inherent in the design, but the undesireable behaviour that does tend to follow an underpass because of the lack of visibility," the resident said.

Another resident was met with loud applause after arguing the underpass would result in the unnecessary removal of trees.
"Some orginal residents of this area had the foresight to plant these wonderful trees to make it the unique pocket that it is - this proposed design is out of character with this suburb," she said.


Elder MP Patrick Conlon told the meeting he was "undecided" about the plan and he would now ask Transport Minister Tom Koutsantonis to review it.
"I'll ask the Minister to put it on hold," he told the meeting.
After the meeting Transport Department project director Luigi Rossi said the underpass was "the safest option". "(But) ultimately the community will decide what occurs here," he said.


Marion resident Samantha Kerr said she was encouraged by the large turnout.
"But we encourage our neighbours to keep writing letters to our politicians to remind them that many people in Marion have said they don't want an underpass and that we deserve a place at the table," she said.


http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/west-beaches/angry-residents-oppose-8220unsafe8221-underpass-at-marion-station/story-fni9llx9-1226675904222
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Democracy in action! Except for the lack of responsive government of course.

I notice that the diagrams and concept images on the DPTI website have been revised to shift the underpass 24 metres to the south and point the ramps south towards the car parking area instead of north. It won't be any closer to the platform though, because the change will be done by chopping 25 metres off the northern end of the station platform, which will then become too short for consists formed of two electric units! Clearly another case of central planning without any attempt at gathering local knowledge, or even any rail knowledge for that matter.

It's a very minor improvement that polishes the turd just a little, in that the ramps on the outside of the rail corridor now point the right way. But it still doesn't address the main problem, which is that the locals were objecting to having an underpass as the only access and not just the proposed location. The locals appear to have no trouble seeing through all the BS about "open designs" and the misleading artist impressions which won't change the fact that there's still a huge amount of area that is below street level and only visible if you're right on top of it.

And it still doesn't address the other problem that having an underpass as the only access to a station is the clearest way possible to say f**k you wheelchair users - have any of you lot ever tried hopping in a wheelchair and pushing yourself up a ramp even one metre high (let alone five), let alone one drenched in stormwater and urine? I would suggest that the top "planners" at DPTI be made to get out of their offices and give this a go at an existing station like Goodwood and see if they still think an underpass is a good idea, I know a few disability care providers who would be happy to lend them a wheelchair for such an educational experience.

I think the taxpayers would probably be better served by an active level crossing as well - the FAQ document on the DPTI website says the cost is $2.5 million, so safe to assume it's actually about $4 million once you include cost blowouts and book cooking to shuffle in funds from elsewhere. Two gated level crossings at even a million dollars each look pretty good compared to that, let alone going for just one.

  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Persons can urinate, defecate, lurk, perv and attack persons on bridges just as they can in underpasses.

The difference with recent bridges is that they have CCTV coverage.

Are the whinging locals going to come out every school day and monitor the gated LX to ensure school children use it properly? NO!

Wait for the furore when the first child is killed; I pray it is not yours.

As for the platform, why does it have to be so wide? At Warradale the ramp and a set of stairs fit in the platform width and Marion platform is the same width as Warradale

Minister just get on with it!
it is just a useless local dismember belatedly trying to find some relevance.

Ian
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Are the whinging locals going to come out every school day and monitor the gated LX to ensure school children use it properly? NO!

Wait for the furore when the first child is killed; I pray it is not yours.
steam4ian
I am sure that Westminster would be happy to include supervision of students using a gated level crossing in their yard duty roster, just as schools all over the state have student monitors and staff supervising student use of signalled road crossings, Emu crossing and Koala crossings.

You would be pleased to know that there has never been a fatality at an Emu or Koala crossing outside a primary school in SA while under the operation of SAPOL-trained student monitors, despite the often low standards of drivers in Adelaide and the absence of automatic gates. With the improved predictability of trains compared to mums on school pickup runs, and the addition of the automatic gates, there is no reason that the same 0% record couldn't be achieved by student monitors and staff from Westminster after some training from a DPTI officer.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Persons can urinate, defecate, lurk, perv and attack persons on bridges just as they can in underpasses.

The difference with recent bridges is that they have CCTV coverage.
steam4ian
I recall there being a murder in the path southwards from Millswood Station years ago.

That made it a bit creepy to walk along!
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
The more I look at the plans shown, the less it makes sense.

OK so the tunnel itself is around 2m high, then its got another 1m of concrete/dirt above it, then the ballast/rail above that.
Now compare the length of the ramp for the platform to the two ramps on the adjacent streets. It doesn't add up, the ramps in the side streets are 30m long, but ~1m of platform adds 25m to the length of the central ramp.

The only difference I see between the original and revised plans is that 3 significant trees are saved, at the expense (literally) or removing 25m of concrete platform and earth.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The more I look at the plans shown, the less it makes sense.

OK so the tunnel itself is around 2m high, then its got another 1m of concrete/dirt above it, then the ballast/rail above that.
Now compare the length of the ramp for the platform to the two ramps on the adjacent streets. It doesn't add up, the ramps in the side streets are 30m long, but ~1m of platform adds 25m to the length of the central ramp.

The only difference I see between the original and revised plans is that 3 significant trees are saved, at the expense (literally) or removing 25m of concrete platform and earth.
fabricator
The ramp from the underpass to the platform is shown at 77 metres (25m taken from the platform) on the new drawing. Assuming they intend to use the steepest gradient at 1 in 14 and the seven level landings shown are the minimum 1.2m length, it works out to a change in elevation of 4.9 metres from the platform to the bottom of the underpass which should be about right - which you could roughly break down into 1m for the platform to rail, 1m from the rail to the underpass ceiling and 2.9m from the ceiling to the floor*.

The side ramps appear to be marked as forty five point something on the new image (exporting as JPEG - shame!) with four landings. That works out to a change in elevation of about 2.8 metres from the base of the underpass to footpath level based on the same 1 in 14 and 1.2m assumptions.

The only non-tree improvements I can discern are that the ramp entrance is further back towards the nearest T-junctions instead of the original version where the ramps fed out in the opposite direction towards the north, so the very top of the ramp entrances will be a just little bit more visible. But that does nothing for the underpass itself, 45 metres further up the road and still hidden away underground, with lots of low vegetation planted around it to make it even harder to see into the underpass unless you're right on top of it.


* leave two metre high tunnels to miniature railways please! It would be good to avoid the need for Seaford timetables to include warnings for basketballers to not use the train to/from Marion Shocked
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
I am sure that Westminster would be happy to include supervision of students using a gated level crossing in their yard duty roster, just as schools all over the state have student monitors and staff supervising student use of signalled road crossings, Emu crossing and Koala crossings.

You would be pleased to know that there has never been a fatality at an Emu or Koala crossing outside a primary school in SA while under the operation of SAPOL-trained student monitors, despite the often low standards of drivers in Adelaide and the absence of automatic gates. With the improved predictability of trains compared to mums on school pickup runs, and the addition of the automatic gates, there is no reason that the same 0% record couldn't be achieved by student monitors and staff from Westminster after some training from a DPTI officer.
justapassenger
I have made a similar comment in the wheelchair access thread above. Level crossings are the cheapest and most user-friendly means of access to station platforms.  An extract from my posting as a user of an electric scooter who can walk with or without a pusher but is only able to live alone without help because of the mobility it provides, says:

At Marion, the present overpass with its multiple shallow risers makes for a very long detour for the able bodied before they can catch a train. The provision of an automatically gated level crossing with a secure holding area for those who try to beat the closing of the gate should be all that is necessary. Westminster School authorities should provide marshals to supervise their train-catching students before and after school. Schools have done that where necessary for very many years.
The position with electric trains is no different from what it always has been. They may be faster and quieter but there is still only the same ten feet or so to avoid if you want to be safe from being hit.
  redadare Junior Train Controller

Location: Flagstaff Hill
For those who haven't been there. View looking north. Taken Sunday14/7/13

[img]http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/redadare/002.jpg[/img]
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
That's a fair wack of steel!
  Sojourner Train Controller

The rest of us would be pleased if you could actually provide some detail on this event occurring given that I am fairly certain nothing of the type occurred.
Aaron

Was around the late 1980's possibly early 1990's, I am not 100% sure which station it was but recalled it being Hallett Cove or Hallet Cove beach, it could have been another station with an underpass on the noarlunga line in the near vicinity.

Young lady got off the train and was followed into the underpass by a chap in his late teens, the chap produced a knife and stabbed her repeatedly to death. The victim was reported in the Advertiser to have been chosen at random because her assailant wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone.

Lad was found guilty and then interned into the mental facility for an unfixed period of time, I think the place is called James Nash House.

I don't recall his name but the reason I recall the case is because I recognised the person that did the crime as being from my high school in a higher grade than I at the time.  

No doubt the case history is avaiable via the State Courts sentancing remarks file, yet I dont have the name of the accused to trawl through it and find it.
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
Was around the late 1980's possibly early 1990's, I am not 100% sure which station it was but recalled it being Hallett Cove or Hallet Cove beach, it could have been another station with an underpass on the noarlunga line in the near vicinity.

Young lady got off the train and was followed into the underpass by a chap in his late teens, the chap produced a knife and stabbed her repeatedly to death. The victim was reported in the Advertiser to have been chosen at random because her assailant wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone.

Lad was found guilty and then interned into the mental facility for an unfixed period of time, I think the place is called James Nash House.

I don't recall his name but the reason I recall the case is because I recognised the person that did the crime as being from my high school in a higher grade than I at the time.  

No doubt the case history is avaiable via the State Courts sentancing remarks file, yet I dont have the name of the accused to trawl through it and find it.
Sojourner
Seaview (nee Seacombe) HS by any chance?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Looks like it will be an automated level crossing now. Good move, and well done to the people for standing up to the department's ignorant "planners" in their ivory tower.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Looks like it will be an automated level crossing now. Good move, and well done to the people for standing up to the department's ignorant "planners" in their ivory tower.
justapassenger

Call that progress?

Could stick with a level crossing at Goodwood too!

Don't forget Oaklands!
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
According to the DPTI website it is reviewing the 2 options and no decision has been made - community feedback must be recieved by 5pm Monday 29 July 2013 - the automated crossing is just 1 of the 2 options along with the existing underpass concept.

http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/RR/rail_revitalisation/marion_station_underpass

A community open day is being held next Thursday, 25th July between 4pm and 8pm at the Hamilton Secondary College.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The retention of the underpass option on the website is just the marketing office's lame attempt at saving face for the department, according to my contact at the City of Marion. The contact I have in the office of a certain MLC on neither the blue or red team is also unimpressed with the democratic deficit shown in this botched up process and may start pushing for an inquiry into the department's public consultation processes even if the sane decision is made and automated gates installed.

A clear message needs to be sent - the taxpayers of this state have had enough of gold-plated monuments and we just want functional infrastructure that gets the job done. I know that hundreds of thousands of dollars would already have been spent on the design work for the proposed underpass and that we can't get that back, but it's still not too late to back down and avoid that turning into millions with extended legal battles and the inevitable blowing out of construction costs.


Call that progress?

Could stick with a level crossing at Goodwood too!

Don't forget Oaklands!
steam4ian
Progress for progress' sake is not progress.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/west-beaches/plan-to-build-an-underpass-at-marion-railway-station-shelved-by-state-government/story-fni9llx9-1226681866021
PLANS to build a $3.5 million pedestrian underpass at the Marion Railway Station have been put on hold, following backlash from residents.

The State Government announced last week it would shelve the 4m wide by 30m long underpass to consult the community on what pedestrian rail crossing should be built at the station. The two options put forward by the Transport Department are the underpass or electronic gates that shut when trains are approaching. Residents welcomed the announcement, saying all they had wanted was a chance to have their say. Oaklands Estate Residents Association president Fred Hill said he had been approached by several people in the street who were opposed to an underpass. "There's been a lot of angst," Mr Hill said. He said the association's preferred option was electronic gates, similar to those at the Oaklands Railway Station. "We'd like to see gates because they are above ground and visible to everyone because you can see right through to the other side, even at night," Mr Hill said. Marion resident Geoff Wells said he was pleased residents would be consulted but wanted more scope to have a say on other options. "The department should look at building an overpass that would be at the (Westminster School) end and at the northern end installing the gates," Mr Wells said.

More than 140 residents rallied at a public meeting earlier this month after learning of the plan to replace an existing overpass with an underpass, as part of the electrification of the Noarlunga train line. Most of the people at the meeting cited safety and disability access concerns and the felling of dozens of mature trees lining the rail corridor for their opposition. Transport Department project director Luigi Rossi said at the meeting the underpass was "the safest option".

An information session where resident can have their say on the options will be held at Hamilton Secondary College on Thursday, July 25 from 4-8pm. Mr Rossi said the community feedback on the two options would be presented to the Transport Minister's office, who would make the final decision. Feedback can be submitted at the open day or by completing a feedback form by Monday, July 29, 5pm at dpti.rr@sa.gov.au. More details: infrastructure.sa.gov.au
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  mclaren2007 Assistant Commissioner

Location: recharging my myki
SA - The Whinging State
  PaulGardner-Stephen Station Staff

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
SA - The Whinging State
mclaren2007

As one of the people petitioning the government about the Marion Station issue, I must object to being accused of whinging.

The proposed underpass would be less safe, more environmentally damaging AND more expensive.

Is it whinging when we are trying to prevent the waste of tax payer money on a solution that will be unnecessarily inferior?

Paul Gardner-Stephen
  PaulGardner-Stephen Station Staff

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
According to the DPTI website it is reviewing the 2 options and no decision has been made - community feedback must be recieved by 5pm Monday 29 July 2013 - the automated crossing is just 1 of the 2 options along with the existing underpass concept.

http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/RR/rail_revitalisation/marion_station_underpass

A community open day is being held next Thursday, 25th July between 4pm and 8pm at the Hamilton Secondary College.
yoyoman
While it is encouraging that this is occurring, we remain concerned about their genuine desire to consider alternatives.  From the link above:

"Please note that community feedback is not the sole element on which a decision will be made. Safety, social and economic factors will also be taken into consideration with a view to achieving the safest, sustainable pedestrian access solution for the whole community at Marion Station."

In short, they are saying that even if the community feedback is overwhelmingly against the underpass, then they may decide to override the public feedback.  Either they must be willing to accept the public feedback, or else they have not done their home work to find out whether the options they are presenting are feasible -- because if they think they are feasible then they have no need to insert such weasle-wording.

We are also concerned that the details for the level crossing option will not be available until Thursday night.  

Until then we won't know whether the level crossing option they are presenting is what we proposed -- complete with funds for daily supervision at school crossing times in perpetuity, all for millions less than the cost of the underpass, or whether it is a purposely sabotaged sham version designed to ellicit support for their expensive, unsafe and unwanted underpass option.

Paul Gardner-Stephen.
  PaulGardner-Stephen Station Staff

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Call that progress?

Could stick with a level crossing at Goodwood too!

Don't forget Oaklands!
steam4ian

With respect you are confusing level crossings for cars (which Oaklands needs to get rid of), with activated level crossings for pedestrians (which Oaklands has just recently had installed, and works effectively).

Paul Gardner-Stephen
  PaulGardner-Stephen Station Staff

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Justapax.

Replacing the overpass with a level crossing will ensure that the Transport Department has blood on its hands and on the front of its nice new trains. (Is that why they have red nose cones?)

School attenders* cross en mass and are often distracted by the kind of activities that school attenders get into. That is the reason the overpass was erected almost 50 years ago. (Is it that long? I can remember it being built) * Many are young adults and to call them all children is demeaning; some are children and more care should be taken.

If a LX is installed it would need to be an active type and be monitored at peak times by the School.

If the LX is a passive type then flashing yellow lights should be installed to require trains to slow; whilst 25 kph is reasonable ('nuther argument) for road vehicles the corresponding train speed would be 5 kph.

While I don't hold with PTD's Parkholme argument (are there shops there?) I do give them some credit for considering the all users including the school and for facing the issues with drainage and keeping the under track tunnel open at the ends to encourage proper use and discourage lurking, vandalism and urination. (See the effective underpass at HCB.)


How much more can I wring out of this topic?

Ian
steam4ian
The existing overpass at Marion Station was built around 1970 in response to a student death at the Southern-end of the station.  That death did not occur at anything that could be reasonably called a modern level crossing: it was essentially just a paved road across the tracks, without a maze, and certainly not a modern activated level crossing.  Having spoken with local residents who were present on the day of the tragic death and remember the events, the student had stopped too close to the passing train, and the mud-guard of his bicycle was caught by the train.  This kind of accident is not possible with a modern gated crossing.

In contrast, in the 1990s at Ascot Park station a young man was killed illegally crossing the tracks to avoid the underpass which is the only access at that station.  My wife was living opposite Ascot Park station, and was at home at the time, and will forever remember that day.

The underpass proposal for Marion Station will encourage this latter type of tragedy, while a modern activated level crossing will prevent both.

This is apart from the murders and attacks that have occurred within underpasses.

Therefore I would argue that installing an underpass as the sole access to the station would leave blood on DPTI's hands, whereas providing a modern activated level crossing will in fact keep blood off of their hands.

Much of your argument is based on a unsupervised passive level crossing being the only alternative to an underpass.  The reality is that a supervised, activated level crossing with gates is cheaper and safter than an underpass.

Paul Gardner-Stephen.

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