V Set Replacement

 
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
Yeah, they are more comfy than the M and A sets, but not the V sets...

No doubt the seats could be changed but they are outer suburban trains, not interburban; a suburban train with somewhat better accommodation and the odd toilet. They spend a lot of time in the suburban area and have the seating and capacity to suit. I can't see a seat change happening.
"HeadShunt"


Yeah, well like I said, I was just suggesting, but I see what you're saying. I was just thinking about what Raichase said, about the fact that they're being used for long distance runs, which is where I came up with it.

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  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Maybe those who have spent years commuting in U and V sets have been spoiled, but to me there is a big difference between them and the OSTs/OSCars with seemingly near vertical 3 x 2 seats with no arm rests in between, no window sills, no coat hooks, knees hitting the seat in front, useless foot rests, no vestibules etc. That's just my purely irrational and emotional customer perspective. Outer surburban trains are just suburban trains with a grand lux options pack.
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
Maybe those who have spent years commuting in U and V sets have been spoiled, but to me there is a big difference between them and the OSTs/OSCars with seemingly near vertical 3 x 2 seats with no arm rests in between, no window sills, no coat hooks, knees hitting the seat in front, useless foot rests, no vestibules etc. That's just my purely irrational and emotional customer perspective. Outer surburban trains are just suburban trains with a grand lux options pack.
"HeadShunt"



Yeah I do agree with the customer opinions. Before I moved to Perth in August last year, I travelled on a lot of S sets. And I can tell you, they're not the best seats. The Mk I cars (3805-3857) were the best though. So any other train (except the M and A sets) would have good seats IMO. I think the problem lies there with what you said, a lot of people are used to the comfort that the V and U sets give. And sadly the H sets don't meet those standards to a lot of people. And it's quite funny, because the refurbished T sets have the same seats with different look, and a lot of people I know say the T sets have the best seats in a suburban train.

For me though, the H sets do offer comfort when travelling anywhere. The B series trains in Perth .... Now they're culprits of bad seating. They're hard as hell. Whenever I travel up to the city from where I live (Rockingham-Perth), its a 40-45 min trip. After that trip, my smeg is almost numb sometimes. It's worse than the C set seats IMO.
  tim617x Station Staff

I think the Oscars will be given the same seating as the Waratahs when they are converted into suburban trains. Personally I think the V-sets should have been given the econemy seating of the XPT's and the XPT's should just have either a seat or sleeper option, but just charche the same price as economy.
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
I think the Oscars will be given the same seating as the Waratahs when they are converted into suburban trains. Personally I think the V-sets should have been given the econemy seating of the XPT's and the XPT's should just have either a seat or sleeper option, but just charche the same price as economy.
"tim617x"


I do stand corrected on this: but I don't think the OSCAR's won't ever be converted to a suburban train for a long time. They practically are a suburban train on some runs, but extend a little further outward to Outer Suburban areas, such as Springwood, Wyong etc (well at least they were designed to anyway). Now that they're being used for long distance runs, the possibility of them becoming extinct like the G sets is a very minor percentage. Maybe in about 19-20 years time, then it might be something to consider, but who knows?
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I do stand corrected on this: but I don't think the OSCAR's won't ever be converted to a suburban train for a long time. They practically are a suburban train on some runs, but extend a little further outward to Outer Suburban areas, such as Springwood, Wyong etc (well at least they were designed to anyway). Now that they're being used for long distance runs, the possibility of them becoming extinct like the G sets is a very minor percentage. Maybe in about 19-20 years time, then it might be something to consider, but who knows?
sydnytrains
Well said! I'm getting a bit sick of reading people discussing the cascading of OSCars from Interurban to Suburban running as if it's a done deal. Unless they know something the rest of us don't, then stop acting like personal speculation is fact. As you say, maybe in 20 odd years, but not tomorrow!
  Goose Chief Train Controller

Well said! I'm getting a bit sick of reading people discussing the cascading of OSCars from Interurban to Suburban running as if it's a done deal. Unless they know something the rest of us don't, then stop acting like personal speculation is fact. As you say, maybe in 20 odd years, but not tomorrow!
Raichase

Agreed 100%.

There is no real decision on V set replacement at the moment from meetings with RSD management at the moment.

They are planning to make the line to Mt Victoria suitable for Oscars eventually.

There is talk of buses to Lithgow or a V set shuttle after refurbishment.

As usual these plans could change at any time.

These are facts not rumours.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
V Sets are not going anywhere soon.

Mr Mason, who heads up the regional arm of the old RailCorp (with a separate organisation looking after the city network), had a “very comfortable ride” from the city to freshly renovated Springwood station. He caught one of the newly refurbished trains which has had a complete makeover — new carpet, seats, toilets, lighting and paint job in a shade of purple called “bush plum”. TrainLink plans to refurbish all 200 of the V Set carriages used on the Blue Mountains, Newcastle and Central Coast lines. Mr Mason said he had heard customers’ concerns and his first priority would be to improve on-time running of trains. Asked about the wishes of Upper Mountains residents west of Katoomba for more services in the middle of the day, Mr Mason said the timetable was still being finalised and he could not commit to extra trains “but we are listening to feedback”
Blue Mountains Gazette
http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/1613613/new-rail-boss-tries-out-refurbished-trains/?cs=1180
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

V Sets are not going anywhere soon.

http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/1613613/new-rail-boss-tries-out-refurbished-trains/?cs=1180
johnboy
I am surprised the Blue Mountains Gazette did not twig to the fact that the Transport Minister did not travel up to Springwood with Mason but instead went off to Panthers in Penrith. As for V sets it is about time they received a makeover in the short term. However, something will need to be done in the longer term as many of the camshaft sets are life expired. I think the post on extending H sets to Mt Vic is on the money, although initially it may be to Katoomba only. I have been told there is very little work needed to extend H sets to Katoomba. There are an increasing number of travellers up the mountains who like the H sets but would prefer V set type seats in them. The advantage of H sets is that an 8 car set will fit in more platforms as they are shorter than V sets. The V sets stopping pattern was initially only in the longer platforms such as Lthgow, Mt Vic, Katoomba, Springwood and then a few suburban stations unlike the case more recently.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
I have been told there is very little work needed to extend H sets to Katoomba
nswtrains
Everyone 'hears' this... but no one can show any evidence of this happening ... or can they?

By the time V Sets come up for retirement, H Sets will also be old design. V Set replacement won't be anytime soon.
  Silver S Set Junior Train Controller

Everyone 'hears' this... but no one can show any evidence of this happening ... or can they?

By the time V Sets come up for retirement, H Sets will also be old design. V Set replacement won't be anytime soon.
johnboy
I agree.
  drgarbanzo Locomotive Driver

I have a vague feeling that I read on here years ago that main sticking point beyond Springwood was the curve of Linden station not allowing wider stuff to pass. Even after they'd done the re-sleepering of the line the NR's wouldn't fit past but at some point this was changed because a large number of NR's head over the mountains. I can't produce the thread it was in as for the life of me I don't know when I read it other than it was on here.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Everyone 'hears' this... but no one can show any evidence of this happening ... or can they?

By the time V Sets come up for retirement, H Sets will also be old design. V Set replacement won't be anytime soon.
johnboy

I'm not having a go, but in one statement you call "hearsay" (quite rightly too, I'm not disputing that). Really though, if only a little bit of work is required to get them to Mt Victoria (which I don't doubt for a second is true, the original plan from a few years ago was to extend the Springwood trains to Lawson - I don't know what became of it), then there wouldn't be much evidence of work being done to correct it. Whenever there's a weekend shutdown, work might be done right under peoples noses, without them noticing because it is so minor. The main sticking point, as I understand it, is the ten tunnels. Obviously with NSW Trains now, that might instead call for a handful of Mt Victoria to Bathurst trains, supplemented by buses? This way you serve the people of Lithgow and Bathurst with a similar service level to that which they were receiving, but also solve the problem of maintaining all of the electrified infrastructure, and avoid running almost empty eight car trains...

As I understand it, the "newer" V Set cars that are planned to be retained for a few more years yet will be refurbished to extend their working lives. The V Set cars that are to be retired over the next few years will likely be at the bottom of the list of cars to overhaul, as they would be up for retirement in a few years. There is a plan for the withdrawl of the V Set cars in the long term.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I just went through a little exercise I've been meaning to do for some time, and check how much wider the OSCARS actually are.

The formula for the offset from the track centre of a train car going around a curve is:

O = Wb x Wb / ( 8 x r ) + Wd/2  

(Actually a first order approximation accurate to at least 0.1% for this calc - it basically assumes the curve is a big parabola rather than a circle).  WB = Wheel base, Wd = Width.

From Wikipedia & the (now defunction) CityRail Website drawings of V Sets and OSCARS:

OSCAR Width: 3034mm
V Set Width: 2930mm

OSCAR Wheel Base: 12700mm
V Set Wheel Base: 15700mm

As the OSCAR's have a shorter wheel base their additional offset going around a curve is less than the longer V car.

Plugging numbers into my formula:

On no curve the OSCAR offset is 1.517 vs 1.465 for a V, a 52mm difference being the extra width of the train.

For a typical mountain 300m corner:
OSCAR Offset = 1584
V Curve = 1568

The difference is now 18mm

But on a tight 200m curve,
OSCAR Offset = 1618mm
V Set = 1619mm  

I haven't found a published precise definition of "Extended Medium Gauge" that includes maximum allowable wheel base, but according to ARTC's http://www.artc.com.au/library/GI_05_loading_restrictions.pdf , the unrestricted loading gauge for NSW is:

width: 2970 mm (2890 below platform height it must be said)
with 16155 mm.

On those numbers, vehicles meeting the unrestricted standard for NSW need *more* lateral space than an OSCAR on curves sharper than 500m (at least above platform height).  

Does anyone know what the 10 tunnel's track centre spacing is?  Because based on this little analysis, even those should be fine for the OSCARs so long as they can fir through in a straight line, not just the curves (300m if I read the Track & Curve diags correctly).

As I see it, the only possible issue could be platforms, and that is a relatively simple thing to sort out - if it needs to be done at all.  More likely an appropriately qualified engineer needs to supervise checking/measuring the actual loading gauge and sign off on allowing OSCARs on it.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I just went through a little exercise I've been meaning to do for some time, and check how much wider the OSCARS actually are.

The formula for the offset from the track centre of a train car going around a curve is:

O = Wb x Wb / ( 8 x r ) + Wd/2  

(Actually a first order approximation accurate to at least 0.1% for this calc - it basically assumes the curve is a big parabola rather than a circle).  WB = Wheel base, Wd = Width.

From Wikipedia & the (now defunction) CityRail Website drawings of V Sets and OSCARS:

OSCAR Width: 3034mm
V Set Width: 2930mm

OSCAR Wheel Base: 12700mm
V Set Wheel Base: 15700mm

As the OSCAR's have a shorter wheel base their additional offset going around a curve is less than the longer V car.

Plugging numbers into my formula:

On no curve the OSCAR offset is 1.517 vs 1.465 for a V, a 52mm difference being the extra width of the train.

For a typical mountain 300m corner:
OSCAR Offset = 1584
V Curve = 1568

The difference is now 18mm

But on a tight 200m curve,
OSCAR Offset = 1618mm
V Set = 1619mm  

I haven't found a published precise definition of "Extended Medium Gauge" that includes maximum allowable wheel base, but according to ARTC's http://www.artc.com.au/library/GI_05_loading_restrictions.pdf , the unrestricted loading gauge for NSW is:

width: 2970 mm (2890 below platform height it must be said)
with 16155 mm.

On those numbers, vehicles meeting the unrestricted standard for NSW need *more* lateral space than an OSCAR on curves sharper than 500m (at least above platform height).  

Does anyone know what the 10 tunnel's track centre spacing is?  Because based on this little analysis, even those should be fine for the OSCARs so long as they can fir through in a straight line, not just the curves (300m if I read the Track & Curve diags correctly).

As I see it, the only possible issue could be platforms, and that is a relatively simple thing to sort out - if it needs to be done at all.  More likely an appropriately qualified engineer needs to supervise checking/measuring the actual loading gauge and sign off on allowing OSCARs on it.
djf01
I was told by someone employed by Railcorp who is usually spot on that the only worries in extending H sets to Katoomba were some dwarf signals that were in foul and that was being sorted out. It could be BS but I very much doubt as the person is in constant contact with permway people up the mountains. If he doesn't know something he says so like what is the purpose of those new sidings at Lawson. He doesn't know and neither does anyone else I have spoken to.

I am not sure if it means anything, maybe not, however, all the new quiet car posters only show an H set and they are the only sets so far with quiet car stickers on the 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th cars.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I am not sure if it means anything, maybe not, however, all the new quiet car posters only show an H set and they are the only sets so far with quiet car stickers on the 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th cars.
nswtrains
I think you'll find that V1 and V16 were the first cars to recieve such stickers.

As for the train being "the only one on the posters", that means zilcho. I recall a poster recently encouraging people to catch the train to the races at Rosehill, and it was a Tangara. S Sets did the running that day. Another poster had an OSCar racing a V8 supercar to advertise getting the train to Olympic Park. S/K/C/T/M sets did the running that day.

Posters are just for promotional purposes, and usually show the most modern train, for obvious public image reasons. Would you prefer that they put a photo of a ratty old, graffitied V Set on the poster instead?
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I was told by someone employed by Railcorp who is usually spot on that the only worries in extending H sets to Katoomba were some dwarf signals that were in foul and that was being sorted out. It could be BS but I very much doubt as the person is in constant contact with permway people up the mountains. If he doesn't know something he says so like what is the purpose of those new sidings at Lawson. He doesn't know and neither does anyone else I have spoken to.
"nswtrains"
The rumbling I hear is that the problem occurs when the plug doors on the H sets are left open, as apparently standards include the possibility of doors failing while open.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to pocket door stock.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Just my two cents worth after traveling on the Oscar after two weeks on a V set.

The V set is quiet and comfy from better noise insulation to plush seating, and even ride comfort is noticeably far ahead of Oscar with no jerky sideways movement, esp when leaving Sydney terminal.

Why are we going backwards?
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
Just my two cents worth after traveling on the Oscar after two weeks on a V set.

The V set is quiet and comfy from better noise insulation to plush seating, and even ride comfort is noticeably far ahead of Oscar with no jerky sideways movement, esp when leaving Sydney terminal.

Why are we going backwards?
ANR
That's a good question for the previous Labor Government, who thought at the time it was a marvellous replacement idea for >1.5 hour journeys.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
Just my two cents worth after traveling on the Oscar after two weeks on a V set.

The V set is quiet and comfy from better noise insulation to plush seating, and even ride comfort is noticeably far ahead of Oscar with no jerky sideways movement, esp when leaving Sydney terminal.

Why are we going backwards?
Your two cents is exactly whilst the more regular people here that travel V's are fearful of losing a decent train to 'cheap' design.
As far as Im concern if the government does not want to replace with the same or better standard of comfort, then they are being cheap.
Most of my journeys are from the upper mountains, but have caught the H a few times to Springwood, didn't like it. At the moment Vs are only on the radar for refurbishment, not replacement, so hopefully there is time to design a decent train. The problem is they have a monopoly on this and can just about build any cattle truck they like.... unless they want to lose the seat of Blue Mountains and Central Coast.
  EMD-ACe Station Master

Location: Australia
Posters are just for promotional purposes, and usually show the most modern train, for obvious public image reasons. Would you prefer that they put a photo of a ratty old, graffitied V Set on the poster instead?
"Raichase"


That is true for the majority of cases, however, you will start to see marketing material featuring overhauled V Sets for NSW Trains in the not too distant future.

I'd suspect the XPT/XPL will follow, unless of course, it is decided to do another photoshop job on existing material.
  dw54 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Devonport, Tas
Hi Sydneyites

Been trying to search web & RP for dimensions or scale drawings of V sets. Dimensions I'm after include:

1) Height above rail level of bottom of cars;
2) Clear opening at passenger doors
3) headroom lower deck, upper deck, mezzanine level and vestibules

Can anybody point me, please.

Cheers

DW in Devonport
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Dw, try, this
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Perhaps better to give a direct linky?
  G20 Station Master

Perhaps we can inject a little factual information into the medium-width-beyond-Springwood debate here.  A recent TOC waiver for transporting (wider than narrow outline) NDSF side dump wagons between Springwood and Lithgow contained the following restrictions:

Past all platforms : 20 km/h
On UP and Down Main from 109.430 km to 109.599 km (curve approaching Katoomba) : 20 km/h
On UP Main from 123.5 km to 123 km (in the cutting between Blackheath and Mt Victoria) : 20 km/h
On UP and Down Main between 126.720 km  and 126.980 km (Western end of Mt Victoria platforms to yard) : 20 km/h
Through the Zig Zag tunnels 30 km/h


Now I don't know how the NDSF wagons compare size-wise with the medium width outline, but I can't find anything to suggest they have any restrictions through platforms in the medium width area.  So this suggests there is still work to do on platform clearances west of Springwood.

The Katoomba approach restriction (109.430-109.599) could be the dwarf signal clearance issue mentioned above.

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