2013 Federal Election - 7th September

 
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
And of course Coalition frontbenchers like Chris Pyne, Barnaby Joyce and Sophie Mirabella are absolutely measured and all round good guys?
gippslander

From what I have observed these politicians come across as being sincere in their approach and convictions.  I can't see why you have singled out these three people as being disingenuous?  At least they call it how they see it.

It seems Krudd is only interested in his own vanity and pleasing the United Nations.  As though we can afford to get involved in Syria.

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  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
People like 2031 need to see some independent assessment of the facts and not form judgements that come straight out of the Murdoch media.
Gippslander

So Gippslander, what would you call the current bunch of idiots running the country?  Competent?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
And of course Coalition frontbenchers like Chris Pyne, Barnaby Joyce and Sophie Mirabella are absolutely measured and all round good guys?
"Gippslander"


From what I have observed these politicians come across as being sincere in their approach and convictions.  I can't see why you have singled out these three people as being disingenuous?  At least they call it how they see it.
"2301"



2301; could you please tell me where you obtained your rose-tinted spectacles?
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
So Gippslander, what would you call the current bunch of idiots running the country?  Competent?
2301

Sorry 2301, you have a confused Alan Jones view of the world.

If you don't get what is wrong with Sophie Mirabella and allied hotheads, that's your problem.

The reality is that the current Australian Government has managed to survive a hung Parliament with all the complexities that entails for three years. They have maintained Australia's AAA credit rating through the GFC and have delivered some landmark legislation such as Disability Care, Schools Reform, NBN and a price on carbon (which is facilitating investment in low emissions).
They have also delivered some pretty important infrastructure like Melbourne's Regional Rail Link (something that the Coalition has refused to do in the future).
Of course the ALP Government has done some ill considered projects and been wasteful - but have a look at the last years of the Howard Government and see how they splurged on middle class welfare to the detriment of desparately needed urban transport infrastructure.  

Of course, Alan Jones and fellow travellers don't think about that because they are nice and comfy inside the BMW.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
As Valvegear says I think that's just another situation that can't be intellectualised, Gippslander.  If you think about the opposing points of view too much then your whole world falls apart and it's really confronting for some people to realise on occasion that their strongly-held views on how the world works, things that they've often believed to be true their whole lives, are not entirely correct.  It's usually easier to continue to live in denial.  Sometimes I really wish that I could see world in black and white terms like the Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt devotees, everything would be much easier to understand.

I'm glad to hear that you are someone who is getting benefit from NBN, I know other people living in rural areas who have benefited from it too.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Sorry 2301, you have a confused Alan Jones view of the world.

If you don't get what is wrong with Sophie Mirabella and allied hotheads, that's your problem.

The reality is that the current Australian Government has managed to survive a hung Parliament with all the complexities that entails for three years. They have maintained Australia's AAA credit rating through the GFC and have delivered some landmark legislation such as Disability Care, Schools Reform, NBN and a price on carbon (which is facilitating investment in low emissions).
They have also delivered some pretty important infrastructure like Melbourne's Regional Rail Link (something that the Coalition has refused to do in the future).
Of course the ALP Government has done some ill considered projects and been wasteful - but have a look at the last years of the Howard Government and see how they splurged on middle class welfare to the detriment of desparately needed urban transport infrastructure.  

Of course, Alan Jones and fellow travellers don't think about that because they are nice and comfy inside the BMW.
gippslander
Laughing
2301 does 'parrot' a bit.

Now Pyne is some weasel. Downer's secret love child who escaped Exclamation

These people want your vote but most of us will never really be one of them. They accuse Labor of promoting class warfare yet all the Libs policies are to provide greatest advantage to the most well off. This is why most of its perverted socialism is based on the 'Tax Deduction' because it provides the most $$$ to the few earning the most.

But don't expect to hear that from the 'bought' media Rolling Eyes
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
I think 2301 is simply trying to justify why he's voting for the Libs; as he knows that he could well be making a bad choice, possibly?
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
Laughing
2301 does 'parrot' a bit.

Now Pyne is some weasel. Downer's secret love child who escaped Exclamation

These people want your vote but most of us will never really be one of them. They accuse Labor of promoting class warfare yet all the Libs policies are to provide greatest advantage to the most well off. This is why most of its perverted socialism is based on the 'Tax Deduction' because it provides the most $$$ to the few earning the most.

But don't expect to hear that from the 'bought' media Rolling Eyes
"Groundrelay"


It's pretty scary to think that in two weeks, Sophie Mirabella will be Industry Minister and the key contact with the car manufacturing industry. We can only hope she gets a crash course in diplomacy and decorum.
Matters like the FBT deal for leased vehicles grabbed huge negative comment recently but how many cars were Falcons or Commodores? I bet the vast majority were imported, giving not a cracker to the local manufacturing industry. The foot soldiers who support the conservatives will never be part of the inner sanctum - its the shadowy lobby groups like the IPA, industry and mining groups that always hold sway.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Groundrelay:  Tax deductibility of many things like overseas trips, cars and computer software is why Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE) people are suckers and people who are self-employed, especially professionals with ongoing education and business expenses are big, big winners.  I was told that by my accountant many years ago but unfortunately I've only ever been in a position to take advantage of it a few times in the past.  PAYE's best option for getting hold of those wealth-generating, tax-dodging things are instruments like negative gearing and (if you can afford it) family trusts.  As the late Kerry Packer once said, anyone not trying to minimise their tax needs their head read.

The other thing that's had (surprisingly) next to no coverage in this campaign is the question of housing affordability, especially in Sydney and Melbourne.  I find it really curious that nobody seems to be talking about that or the huge leg up that many get from negative-gearing.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

So Q&A, if that staunch Murdoch & his NewsCrop can bring Col Pot (ooh sooorry I mean Col Alan) to Australia to campaign for the Liberals, then why can't Labor bring the British Labour MP Tom Watson to campaign for Labor?

He was asked by Tony Jones, if he was brought out here by Labor. The British MP said no he wasn't. Should I insert a flying pig picture, or a flock of flying pigs picture?
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
The reality is that the current Australian Government has managed to survive a hung Parliament with all the complexities that entails for three years. They have maintained Australia's AAA credit rating through the GFC and have delivered some landmark legislation such as Disability Care, Schools Reform, NBN and a price on carbon (which is facilitating investment in low emissions).
Gippslander :


Oh c'mon Gippie, they only survived a hung parliament because they sold their backsides to the independents, hence the reason for the ranga shafting everyone with her stupid bloomin carbon tax.

As far as the AAA rating goes, who the bloody hell are these credit rating people kidding?  $30 billion blackhole appears in the budget just in 2 months........unbelievable.  And besides, Australia couldn't go wrong with the mining boom which wouldn't matter who was in.

Disability Care and school reform are not implemented yet and have a very long way to go before they have any affect, that's if they do get off the ground.  The NBN is one massive cost blow out after another because of poor planning and is an absolute waste of money - there is no need for it to be so extravagant.

The price on carbon is only facilitating bankruptcies, you only have to look at the state of the general economy and where we are heading.  We need a carbon tax like a hole in the head at this present time, particularly given that hardly any other country in the world is going down this path.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I live for the day when 2301 joins the real world and starts looking at facts rather than training as a pet parrot.  "Sold their backsides to the independents" could, in simple terms, be stated as "learnt to work together."  This appears to be something the Libs couldn't do, so they've been in opposition.
I'm also lost in wonder that 2301 knows more than the Credit Rating Agencies.

Then there's, " . . .you only have to look at the state of the general economy and where we are heading."
In your undoubted expert opinion, 2301, just what is the state of the economy? Oh, and by the way, don't bother with the standard lines of " everybody knows"  or " listen to the news" or " don't you know..." etc.
Let's have 2301's detailed analysis, complete with figures -  accurate figures - so that we are all better informed.
  northbritish Chief Train Controller

Do you honestly think the Coalition will be better?  Tony Abbott has policies (at the moment) guaranteed to put us into even more debt than the current mob.

They all want power for the sake of it, none of them really stand for anything except the six figure pension they get after two terms.
don_dunstan
Well yes I do think they will do better. We have gone from a $20 billion surplus to a $300 billion deficit in six years. Can you get your head around that? It is almost one billion dollars a week, or $137 million a day, or $5.7 million an hour, or $95 thousand per second!

What do we have to show for it?

Shows that labor just cant manage money or projects. We have to pay that money back in the future.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Well yes I do think they will do better. We have gone from a $20 billion surplus to a $300 billion deficit in six years. Can you get your head around that? It is almost one billion dollars a week, or $137 million a day, or $5.7 million an hour, or $95 thousand per second!

What do we have to show for it?

Shows that labor just cant manage money or projects. We have to pay that money back in the future.
northbritish

How does that compare to other OECD countries during the period of the GFC?

Maybe I need to re-iterate it in case you didn't read it the first time:  Tony Abbott's current policies will make the deficit WORSE.

If you are going to spruik how much better Tony Abbott will be at least get his platform right.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I live for the day when 2301 joins the real world and starts looking at facts rather than training as a pet parrot.  "Sold their backsides to the independents" could, in simple terms, be stated as "learnt to work together."  This appears to be something the Libs couldn't do, so they've been in opposition.
.........
Valvegear

The parroting here is really un-thinking.  If you are going to be on the Abbott cheer squad you need to at least be fully aware of what they are actually planning.

Less than a fortnight till the election and they still won't specify exactly what they'll cut... is that because they don't know or is it because they're afraid it will affect their chances of election?  Ross Gittins has an excellent article in Fairfax today pointing out that Tony Abbott has been incredibly fast and loose with the truth in the past - recall: "If it's not on paper then you shouldn't believe what I've said"?  What does that say about him?  And how does that compare to 2301's description of Rudd and Gillard as chronic liars?

And 2301, you didn't say anything about my description of Andrew Robb giving rent-seeking big corporations the green light under the incoming coalition.  Is that because you know what I'm saying is true - that they look after the big end of town and nobody else?

My deeply held suspicion is that the same people who are saying how wonderful he is now will probably be the same ones screaming for his removal in another two years.
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
There is no point in lecturing Murdoch fans about the reasons about why Australia has high debt levels at the moment.
I suspect that if the Libs had won in 2007 their response to the GFC would have been very similar - in any case a large amount of the money has been put into lasting infrastructure. Independent reviews of projects like the School buildings roject show overwhelming support, albeit with a small percentage of aggrieved partes. Their proposed Parental Leave plan is hare brained and will cost the country big time.

Of course the people who feed the brainwashing to the likes of 2031 aren't fussed about the accuracy of the argument.
I agree with Don D - in 12 months time some realities will have set in and Tony will have to stay out of dark lanes in case Malcom is waiting with the baseball bat.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Well yes I do think they will do better. We have gone from a $20 billion surplus to a $300 billion deficit in six years. Can you get your head around that? It is almost one billion dollars a week, or $137 million a day, or $5.7 million an hour, or $95 thousand per second!

What do we have to show for it?

Shows that labor just cant manage money or projects. We have to pay that money back in the future.
northbritish
Hmmm. Yes.

Have you ever actually considered how the Libs actually got that surplus? It wasn't through good business acumen, I can tell you that much. It's simply through shredding public services, so it's you and me that have had to suffer and miss out so that they could claim the surplus. It's a great ploy to fool the easily led into thinking they've brought us out of the dark. Unfortunately, the reality of a surplus is much different.

Having a surplus means that money hasn't been spent where it should have been. It means that funding for schools, and hospitals has been slashed. It means that public works, and services have been slashed. It means funding to our beloved railways have been slashed. It means that hundreds - maybe thousands of people have lost their jobs in the public sector, and have had to either look elsewhere, or join the dole queue. It means they have sold off public assets - assets owned by the people of Australia, which they have no right to sell in the first place (there are too many examples of these disasters to name). Don't tell me all this is necessary, because I'm sure you've bitched about some of the above, and questioned why they hadn't done anything about it.

So is having a surplus really worth it? You will only have a surplus when money isn't being spent where it should be, and it's the people of Australia who really lose out, not the politicians who are crowing about it to the media. The way I see it, a good government can only break even at best.

Regarding your other claim about the management of money, the Libs are also guilty of massive blow-outs, so it's not as though they're any better. If they get the job done under-budget, then it's only through cutting corners which can have a knock-on effect in the future when it comes to maintainence. Right now, most of the money being spent is where Howard & Co. should have been spending money in the first place. Because the infrastructure has gone unmaintained for so long, it's now costing more to fix the problems - hence your debt. For another point of view; look at what Labor, and Liberal are proposing for the NBN. Which one is offering the better deal? What about 2301's favorite subject of "Boat People"? Whilst I don't agree with what Labor have done by re-directing them to PNG; it's a lot more realistic, and cost effective to what Tony Abbott has been gaffing about in the media. Are you for equality? If you are, what is Tony Abbott proposing in this regard? Is he letting his own personal religious beliefs cloud his decisions? Really, they're miles apart when it comes to what's on offer.

I personally think that Labor is the lesser of the two evils at the moment, and are offering a better deal to the people of Australia. They're also at least able to have policies in place before the election, and accessable to the public. Abbott is on record as saying that there is no need for the Libs to release their policies until after the election. That to me says he's hiding something, and can't be trusted. I know that there is no way I'm going to change your mind (nor you change mine); but it's always good to ask a few questions first, before jumping in the deep end. The main question to ask is: is there enough water before I jump it?
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
People cite how good the Libs are as economic managers. Look back at history since 1940 Idea. Analyse what was happening with our major trading partners and what the impact was on Australia. Running this economy is more like good luck/timing than good management.

If Australia was a airliner, the Libs get control whenever the weather's fine. So they sit back and the economy runs on autopilot. They can and do get away with doing SFA, build up the savings and use it to keep the people in first/business class happy.

Labor takes over and the country hits turbulence (Japans entry into WW2, post-war demobilisation/austerity, Arab Oil Crisis, Tech bubble burst, GFC and stuttering recovery). You actually have to fly the thing and handle everything the weather is throwing at you! Now the passengers are roughed up, late to their destination and pretty much p#ssed off with the pilot.

Who really is the better pilot Rolling Eyes
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Gippslander: I'm with you a hundred percent.  Malcom Turnbull was always my preferred Liberal leader, he says so many things that make good sense and he also strikes me as someone with compassion and empathy for ordinary people.  He's also very strongly in favour of fixed rail infrastructure to help manage traffic congestion in our big cities; I once read an article by him suggesting Sydney needed to reinstate much of its tram network and with that attitude he would win me over no questions asked.  The only thing I don't agree with him on is the need for a republic, I prefer the status quo myself.  I think the fundamental problem with Malcolm is that he's far too wet and soppy for many of the extreme dries in his own party; his stance on climate change completely horrified many and they were glad to bump him off in favour of Abbott, who is, after all, best friends with Andrew Bolt (no joke).

Barrington: Have you seen the ad the Liberals are running in high rotation at the moment where Joe Hockey promises to bring the budget into surplus because "we've done it before".  I always laugh and think 'you only get to sell Telstra once you know.'

For me, that irresponsible promise to tip money into the East-West truck sewer was the deal-breaker.  Abbott hadn't even seen the business case but because it's a huge state-sponsored Public Private Partnership he's automatically all for it.  We must be one of the only countries in the world still spending this kind of ludicrous money on enormous pieces of toll-way in our inner suburbs while public transport languishes for want of spending, not even the Americans are doing that any more.  The biggest lie I've read about East-West so far is that it will solve traffic congestion on Punt Road - what load of rubbish.  It's only designed for people wanting to go from CityLink to the Eastern and vice versa - it won't have any impact whatsoever on people wanting to go from the Eastern to the City; and yet somehow it's going to solve all our inner suburban traffic woes?
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Barrington: Have you seen the ad the Liberals are running in high rotation at the moment where Joe Hockey promises to bring the budget into surplus because "we've done it before".  I always laugh and think 'you only get to sell Telstra once you know.'
don_dunstan
No, I haven't. Working the hours I do, I don't really get a chance to watch much TV - not that I did anyway. The times where I have seen TV (usually at smoko); if the channel is 7 or Prime, nearly every second ad is for the Bendigo area Liberal candidate. I haven't seen one for Labor on that channel yet. I try not to watch those ads. They're cringeworthy at best.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
"We complain bitterly about crowded roads but do not provide enough of the only thing that can be relied upon to get people off the roads - efficient and reliable mass transit... Good public transport is critical but has been neglected for too long. It has an important social benefit. Cities dependent on cars discriminate against the old, the poor and the young."
---Malcolm Turnbull, address to Western Sydney population summit, July 2010

Oh Malcolm, if only we could have you as our next PM instead of "sell my ar*e" Abbott.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Having a surplus means that money hasn't been spent where it should have been. It means that funding for schools, and hospitals has been slashed. It means that public works, and services have been slashed. It means funding to our beloved railways have been slashed. It means that hundreds - maybe thousands of people have lost their jobs in the public sector, and have had to either look elsewhere, or join the dole queue. It means they have sold off public assets - assets owned by the people of Australia, which they have no right to sell in the first place (there are too many examples of these disasters to name). Don't tell me all this is necessary, because I'm sure you've bitched about some of the above, and questioned why they hadn't done anything about it.
Barrington Womble

And you now have the opposite to this thanks to the present bunch of Labor party incompetents.  Thanks to their reckless spending and disregard for anyone except themselves and their political ideologies we now have a situation where this will have to happen.  And please, don't go on about how Abbott will cut this and that because what are the other options available; increased taxes or in Labor's case just keep spending and let some other mob worry about cleaning up the bloomin mess.

Finally, the Labor party are the one's that started the privatisation ball rolling in this country, thanks to Paul Keating and nicely finished off by the idiots Bligh and Fraser.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Having a surplus means that money hasn't been spent where it should have been. It means that funding for schools, and hospitals has been slashed.
Barrington womble

And what is the flipside to this womble?  Having massive debt like we currently have creates a structural budget problem which therefore stops the Government from spending money on these services and inevitably leads to funding being slashed and increased taxes.  It also leads to a whole host of other economic problems which in turn effects the Government's ability to provide services and build infrastructure for the future.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
2301, you have an incredibly blinkered view of the world.  I think you'll find Howard, Kennett (VIC), Olsen (SA) sold off much more than Labor.  I'm not saying the Labor party were any better or worse in this regard, it's just that (as usual) you don't seem to have a balanced view of history.

If we had an 'alternative history' time machine I think you'd find Howard or Costello would have had an identical response to the GFC as Gippslander says above; they would have spent money in the same manner that Rudd did in order to prevent the economic slump that ravaged Europe and the USA.  And Rudd's adverts on telly at the moment really do have a point, we don't have a 'massive' debt in comparison to other OECD countries; I think you'll probably find as a relative proportion of GDP that Fraser probably put us in much more debt than we're in now.  And Howard just had the good fortune to sell Telstra at the top of the market, I don't think it was really good management more than it was opportunism and good luck - that's why I simply don't believe Joe Hockey's bubbly view "we'll get out of debt like we did before".  As I said earlier, you only get to privatise Telstra once.

I really don't mind your continued bias against Rudd but you have to base your assertions on fact, not your pathological hatred of the Labor Party.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
How does that compare to other OECD countries during the period of the GFC?
don_dunstan
Call me a GFC skeptic if you have to, but I call it the 'Northern Hemisphere Financial Crisis'.

The fact is the so called GFC barely touched Australia, and don't kid yourself that giving every citizen $900 (or multiples there of) even if overseas, to spend on imported goods saved the economy. Building school halls, installing pink bats and Recovering Roads didn't do it either.

Remember what Australia was like when the 'GFC' came? We'd just changed Government, had a negative debt to GDP, mining exports that were on the boom.

What 'got Australia through' was not anything the ALP did, it was what the RBA did, (and the RBA does not listen to Governments - thankfully!), along with the Chinese stimulating their economy, with some help from the AUD900 payments turning up there for goods.

But what about other countries? Hmmm, our closest economic partner, New Zealand, what were they doing? They had a significant debt to GDP, effectively what ours is now (slightly higher probably), where are they now? Negative debt to GDP (almost where ours was pre 'GFC'). Next year NZ will be in surplus.

What did NZ do to get to this fiscal position? Stimulate the economy with wasted payments? No.

NZ did what was sensible, balanced budgets, lowering personal income tax (nearly halving it), lowering company tax which kept people employable and aided the employing of more and lifting their GST to discourage spending and encourage saving. They spent a small amount on stimulous, but this was specifically targeted at businesses to retain staff. They further built confidence in business by allowing for tax payments to be deferred. As an aside, business confidence (roughly linked to the likelyhood you'll keep your job) has gone down in Australia, but it's gone up in the USA... Who would have thought that?

Along the way, you might recall NZ also had some ground shakes that damaged their second city... Several times...

Did Australia do okay through the GFC that didn't make it here, we passed, if by passing we mean avoiding recession, but NZ went from recession to growth, without the massive debts we've been saddled, and without epic mining output.

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