2013 Federal Election - 7th September

 
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Oh dear, you really do have a problem don't you.  I find this notion that when one has an informal discussion about politics and the state of affairs that one must turn it into a full university thesis with quotes and cites, quite bizarre to say the least.  Would you like a Glossary and Appendix included too?

Is this your attempt at intellectual wankery or your way of shouting down someone you don't agree with?  You sound like you would be an extremely rude and obnoxious person to meet in the flesh.
2301
Now 2301 has really lost the plot. No considered discussion, and a final descent into insults - the last refuge of the person who has no credibility. You've done a fine job of making an example of yourself; give up now dear boy, you're boring everyone. You lack the intellectual capacity for politics; you are not debating, you're parroting propaganda, and that does not constitute a discussion.
Stick to things you know something about, although I am at a loss to know what those might be.

Sponsored advertisement

  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Joe Hockey said he was NOT going to make cuts to health & education. Note he left most others out.
But more importantly, Hockey attempted to try to a keep a straight face when he said that the Liberals will not raise the GST.

It looked like the worst "attempting to keep a straight face" you could see.

Tony Abbott just mentioned that he wants to "cut" the carbon tax, but then "corrected" himself and said he wants to "abolish" the carbon tax.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I see mikesyd has already voted for the bunch of monkeys - Both sides are . . . .!

Oops, oh no I did it again.
Newcastle Express
Why would a treasurer who's only interest is the Federal economy raise the income of the States?
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
we don't have a 'massive' debt in comparison to other OECD countries;
don_dunstan
How does that compare to other OECD countries during the period of the GFC?
don_dunstan
http://www.oecd.org/general/listofoecdmembercountries-ratificationoftheconventionontheoecd.htm
Australia 7 June 1971
...
New Zealand 29 May 1973
...
List of OECD Member countries - Ratification of the Convention on the OECD
You asked the questions, I posted the FACTS in response to the NEAREST OECD member nation. If you have a problem with that, maybe you should have a rethink as to the data you want me to waste my precious time digging up for you. Maybe you should have been more specific? You want me to compare with other OECD Member countries with left leading treasurers, rather than picking OECD countries with conservative treasurers and governments that are halfway competent that knew what they are doing...

Since you kept banging on about OECD Member countries, I could add some more...
Chile 7 May 2010
Denmark 30 May 1961
Finland 28 Janurary 1969
Norway 4 July 1961
Sweden 28 September 1961
They're just the interesting ones, I could add more, but I won't bore the audience, besides I've got bigger fish to fry.

Aaron, there's no comparison between Australia and New Zealand, they have a much lower standard of living there.
don_dunstan
First reference you've made to standard of living and debt, but give me some moments and I will pull data to dispell that too. - You'll probably just decide that I used the wrong measure/method/indicator though...

So here you go, want me to compare the standards of living?

Based on the 'Quality of Life Index' (out of 10) I can tell you Australia scores 7.925, and Denmark scores 7.797 I don't think that's significantly different. Both are OECD Member countries, Denmark's NET debt is approximately 75% of ours against GDP. For the record New Zealand scores 7.436 on the QFI, which again, I don't think is significantly different from Australia. But it gets worse, Finland's QFI score is 7.618, and their NET debt is negative... I have not seen to many Danes and Finns with only the clothes on their back rocking up here... Have you?

But they all score less on the QFI, what if some country scored more... Like maybe Norway, QFI = 8.051 (actually that places them third in the World - we're fifth), Norway must have a HUGE debt, nope, their NET debt is negative too... Higher standard of living, OECD Member and negative debt, and guess what, a credit rating of AAA and stable outlook.

Too flukey? What about Sweden? QFI = 7.937 (fourth), negative debt to GDP, OECD member, AAA credit rating with stable outlook.

Seen many near shirtless Norwegians or Swedes rocking up here fleeing their low standards of life back home? - I think not.

Yep Swan is the World's best treasurer alright... Going from negative debt to the largest debt the nation has ever seen. The ALP had to lift Australia's debt ceiling (TWICE!) to get there, but damn they made sure they did! - Champion economists.

I'm sorry but this is plainly wrong.  If we shouldn't compare ourselves to other OECD countries then who should we compare ourselves to?  Zimbabwe?  Pakistan?
don_dunstan
I don't know!!!! Okay, now I am confused again, who do you want us to be compared to? Only countries OECD Member nations (or otherwise) that suit your points?

As Barrington says, you aren't arguing well, you need to come up with something better than a mindless assertion
don_dunstan
You could do worse than to read this quote with some reference to yourself.

There's no convincing some people.
don_dunstan
Congrats! You got something right! Smile
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Labor are cleaning up the mess made by the Liberals
Barrington Womble
All tip, and no iceberg as Paul Keating would say.
Barrington Womble
Ah, so that's where you get your material, and to think I thought you were being funny on your own...
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
Aaron, there's no comparison between Australia and New Zealand, they have a much lower standard of living there.  When I was working in emergency housing the biggest group of 'refugees' by far was New Zealanders arriving in Melbourne, often with nothing more than the clothes on their backs.
don_dunstan
Not that much of a surprise, given the recent Christchurch earthquake which made the center of that city a no go zone.
Plus 1988 the Auckland CBD was deserted for 5 weeks due to having almost no power. Those sorts of things have a real negative effect on the economy for a very long time.

For various other reasons the NZ economy is behind Australia. Given the fact they don't need a visa to travel here (and vis versa) it's obvious some choose to live here instead. Some people have joked there are more New Zealanders in Australia than NZ itself Smile


Anyway voting in a government that's only real policy is to slash and burn is always a disaster at some level.
Just ask the Adelaide Central Markets stall holders what they think of that Mayor they helped vote in a few years back, the one that promised to stop the Victoria square development (which they wanted), but also canned the redevelopment of the Central Markets itself. It's like pushing the gun at the last minute so it misses your foot, and having the bullet bounce back and hit you in the face!

Some say people get the government they deserve, but I wouldn't inflict a Tony Abbott on anyone, not even Aaron. See I'm not an inconsiderate jerk that watches other people suffer.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Some say people get the government they deserve, but I wouldn't inflict a Tony Abbott on anyone, not even Aaron. See I'm not an inconsiderate jerk that watches other people suffer.
fabricator
No that's true. You are just one that listens and believes the lies told by the Labor party hacks.
  northbritish Chief Train Controller

With all due respect Barrington, don't you think that is a very simplistic attack.  I am using an analogy to highlight my point that our economy is different to other economies along with the circumstances regarding the accumulation debt.  

Typical of the lefties, when they perceive they are loosing an argument they try to make out the other person is intellectually inferior.
2301
As well as peppering their responses with personal insults.
  northbritish Chief Train Controller

Now 2301 has really lost the plot. No considered discussion, and a final descent into insults - the last refuge of the person who has no credibility. You've done a fine job of making an example of yourself; give up now dear boy, you're boring everyone. You lack the intellectual capacity for politics; you are not debating, you're parroting propaganda, and that does not constitute a discussion.
Valvegear
Pot calling kettle black alert!
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...

Yep Swan is the World's best treasurer alright... Going from negative debt to the largest debt the nation has ever seen. The ALP had to lift Australia's debt ceiling (TWICE!) to get there, but damn they made sure they did! - Champion economists.

...
Big whoop Rosebud Rolling Eyes

Anyone who really believes that liberals are the 'better' economic managers are simply ignoring historic context.

FACT - when our trading partners are doing well this country's economy does well. Anyone can be a the helm and it would make SFA difference. However when the world isn't doing well, you actually have to do something. Some of us think 12% unemployment is worst than some deficit which is relatively modest considering the size of this economy.

Hardly surprising the Libs retreated from its surplus target given the continuing uncertainty around the global economy. The better economic managers claim is just as simplistic as the 'interest rates will always be lower' claim.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Groundrelay Anyone who really believes that liberals are the 'better' economic managers are simply ignoring historic context.
Groundrelay
So what about the historic context the current bunch of economic managers are leaving us?
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Fabricator Some say people get the government they deserve, but I wouldn't inflict a Tony Abbott on anyone, not even Aaron. See I'm not an inconsiderate jerk that watches other people suffer.
Fabricator

But he is not even in Government yet - it sounds like you are letting your personal bias cloud your judgement.

The reason why I am so anti Labor is because of their track record and what they have done to the country, particularly over the last 6 years.  The amount of suffering this Government has and will continue to inflict as a result of their recklessness will go down in history.  The party is not over yet, it is just beginning and you watch, all the rusted on Laborites will blame the next Government who ever they are for all our problems..........just typical.

I am not saying Abbott and the Liberals are going to be the bees knees, but going on historical context as Groundrelay puts it, I think it is definitely time for a change and any one has to be better than Krudd, Wong, Swannnnny, Shorten and all the other morons that just make a profession out of lying and bullsh1tting just to cover up their ineptitude.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
...sounds like you are letting your personal bias cloud your judgement.

...
2301
And there's not a bit of that personal bias bouncing around up there too? Rolling Eyes
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Ah, so that's where you get your material, and to think I thought you were being funny on your own...
Aaron
It's a damn good line, and I'm quite happy to quote Paul Keating when I use it.

I see you have taken your bitchy pills again today, Aaron. Calm down, Lad. It's only a thread on an internet forum.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
As well as peppering their responses with personal insults.
northbritish
Not my problem if you interpret my posts that way. There are others here who are guilty of actually doing this, yet cry blue murder when the supposed opposition supposedly indulge (try saying that 10 times as quickly as you can) in doing what you claim. Pot. Kettle. Black...Again.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Aaron, you must have worked long and hard to selectively mine that data... yes, you are right - I think you are using the wrong indicator, but come on, step back and look at your own post.  Quality of life index verses national debt?  "Left leaning" treasurers (that's a completely subjective measure by the way)?  Cherry-picking the data much there, Aaron?  

On a more serious topic, exactly how much time did you waste looking for all that stuff in an effort to disprove me?  When I saw that extraordinarily long post you'd made that was entirely focused on me I actually responded with alarm exactly for that reason, it was all about me - is that the kind of reaction you were looking for? You want to frighten people?  Do you ever step back and look at your own behaviour and think "Hmm, maybe I'm going too far to prove a point.  Perhaps I might be coming across as a crazy person here"?  Have a look at your acerbic comments above, not just towards me but towards others too - they're over the top, not reasonable.  

Other members here have told you repeatedly to stop putting people down but you can't seem to stop yourself because you have this unshakable belief in your own virtuousness and right that somehow entitles you to insult and demean others... all while refusing to admit that you are wrong about some things.  The fact that being right all the time is so critically important to you should be your warning bell that something isn't right but it's clear you lack the insight.  I'm not going to remind you of the other occasions on which you've been wrong because you just won't acknowledge it, that's just another reason why trying to have a reasoned discussion with you is futile.  I've been told by long-standing members to not even respond to your posts because it ends up in a circular argument and sadly I've got to a point now where I have to agree with them.

I've got no interest in feeding your pathology so I think it's better if from now on we simply ignore each other's posts on here; you may make a decision to respond to mine but I'm afraid this is the very last time I'll ever respond to anything that comes from you.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
You have born to rule liberals like 'University of Adelaide' Aaron and Rosebud feed ones like 2301.

The former has a patch to protect, the latter Rolling Eyes

For three years Abbott bad mouthed the country and worked with their disciples to bring on an early election! That born to rule arrogance not lost on the independents when they were negotiating with both sides.

The Libs routinely support the HAVES over the HAVE LESS.

That's why they side with asbestos companies over dying workers, why CSG will win out over farmers, why they opposed old age pensions, universal health care and superannuation and tried to put GST on food.

It's all about siphoning more money into the hands of those with plenty anyway. That arrogance and hypocrisy where Abbott equates his $75000 PPL for the richest few to the aged pension for the poorest whilst banging on that the country is broke Evil or Very Mad

Not surprising the gap between the two will be even greater than ever.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
But he is not even in Government yet - it sounds like you are letting your personal bias cloud your judgement.
2301
Once again, you are not practicing what you preach. Anybody would think that the Libs are already in by the way you post as well.


The reason why I am so anti Labor is because of their track record and what they have done to the country, particularly over the last 6 years.  The amount of suffering this Government has and will continue to inflict as a result of their recklessness will go down in history.  The party is not over yet, it is just beginning and you watch, all the rusted on Laborites will blame the next Government who ever they are for all our problems..........just typical.
2301
Speak for yourself.

You've previously claimed that you believe in the ideals of what Labor stand for, yet you are voting for the polar opposite with the conservatives.

I will ask you again: why are you not voting for another party, or independent who are the closest to those ideals if you've lost faith in the Labor Party? It would make a lot more sense than jumping from one extreme to the other. What about Bob Katter? He seems more for the ideals you claim to believe in than Tony Abbott.

Dare you actually answer my question? Wink


I am not saying Abbott and the Liberals are going to be the bees knees, but going on historical context as Groundrelay puts it, I think it is definitely time for a change and any one has to be better than Krudd, Wong, Swannnnny, Shorten and all the other morons that just make a profession out of lying and bullsh1tting just to cover up their ineptitude.
2301
They've done the best they could, with what they were given. All Governments are going to spend money where they shouldn't, so it's a case of grin and bear it. It's when they hord the money, and don't spend it where it's needed that there is a problem.

I've been doing some more research about the term of the Howard Government in regards to surpluses. It seems that the main reason Costello had such an easy time, was due to the international mining boom. As others here have said, it was virtual auto-pilot for most of his term, so Costello was in the right place, at the right time. When the mining boom slumped, it was nearly time for the 2007 election. This coupled with the GFC, have seen it tough going for Labor, as they have actually had to steer the ship in regards to the country's finances, hence we have the debt we do today. If you couple that with the money Labor has had to spend on infrastructure where the Liberal Party didn't, you have even more debt.

I do wonder what would have happened if the Libs were re-elected in 2007? How would they have handled the mining slump, and the GFC? Would you still be handing out "How to Vote" cards for Labor...?
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Donnie, Donnie, Donnie..........I hope your not trying to out do Valvgear in the intellectual stakes old mate?  You really do come across as being an angry young man when your intellectual superiority is challenged.

You know.........I had to use a dictionary to look up some of your words. If you keep using big words my dictionary will get more use than my funk and wagnells ever did; at least your classical education did not go to waste.  I do recall you have said somewhere in your previous posts that you can't secure employment in your preferred area, I guess you could probably blame this too on your comrades at the Labor party and their policies to make us the most overqualified underemployed intellectuals in the world.  

Yes, the socialists have to develop a breeding ground to produce their little comrade off springs - what a great growth industry we have here, where expensive pieces of paper can be bought so we can all aim for a job in the service industries in a transitioning economy.  And if you can't get a job in the new economy you can always go back and do a Phd.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Barrington womble I will ask you again: why are you not voting for another party, or independent who are the closest to those ideals if you've lost faith in the Labor Party? It would make a lot more sense than jumping from one extreme to the other. What about Bob Katter? He seems more for the ideals you claim to believe in than Tony Abbott.

Dare you actually answer my question? http://www.railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
Barrington womble

Because the Labor party have lost their way, especially since they have been hijacked by the socialists and greens.  After the last 6 years this election is too important in my opinion to vote for independents, and besides none of the independents are worth voting for.  

I would class myself as a swinging voter - I will even admit I voted informal in the past couple of elections, but I believe that if we get another 3-4 years of the present bunch of clowns Australia will be a basket case like many countries.  I don't particularly agree with all of Abbott's policies but I believe they are the only votable option at the moment.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Barrington womble I've been doing some more research about the term of the Howard Government in regards to surpluses. It seems that the main reason Costello had such an easy time, was due to the international mining boom. As others here have said, it was virtual auto-pilot for most of his term, so Costello was in the right place, at the right time. When the mining boom slumped, it was nearly time for the 2007 election. This coupled with the GFC, have seen it tough going for Labor, as they have actually had to steer the ship in regards to the country's finances, hence we have the debt we do today. If you couple that with the money Labor has had to spend on infrastructure where the Liberal Party didn't, you have even more debt.

I do wonder what would have happened if the Libs were re-elected in 2007? How would they have handled the mining slump, and the GFC? Would you still be handing out "How to Vote" cards for Labor...?
Barrington womble

Your logic is quite bizarre.  It seems as though you are blaming the Liberals for the deficit and letting the current bunch off the hook because it was all just bad luck that they took over the reigns when they did.  

Yes, we had a mining boom, but you have to question why the need to spiral into so much debt considering we did not have to?  We did not have bank failures like other countries had and the economy was still going along reasonably well when Krudd decided he wanted to be Mr Popular and start p1ssing money recklessly up against the wall.  It is almost as though Krudd and Labor are unable to think things through - they just act on impulse with their bright ideas, like they did with border control and to hell with the consequences.

And now we have a situation where the budget is just spiralling out of control every month, with no end in sight from Krudd and Labor about pulling in the reigns - it is almost as though they are deliberately destroying the country so who ever takes over next will have to cop it.

And the Labor party aren't spending money on infrastructure like you have us believe.  Wouldn't you think all that money that was spent on NBN, school halls, pink batts and cash splashes would be better off being channelled into roads, rail and ports?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
And now we have a situation where the budget is just spiralling out of control every month, with no end in sight from Krudd and Labor about pulling in the reigns - it is almost as though they are deliberately destroying the country so who ever takes over next will have to cop it.
2301


2301; when you mature a little, which I hope is soon, you may come to the ghastly realisation that your constant repetition of the same lines does not constitute unshakeable truth. You write all the time as though your pronouncements are like the immutable Laws of the Medes and the Persians. There is no doubt in your mind that you, and your speech writers, are infallibly correct, yet, when challenged, you resolutely refuse to put any hard evidence. In answer to challenges from me, you have resorted to name-calling and insults. Now, I don't give two hoots what you call me, because your opinion of me does not matter. There are people, whose opinion of me, I value.  You are not one of them.
It may have escaped your notice that there is a large number of people who have said that the Australian economy is the envy of other countries. It may be or it may not.  You are constant in you insistence that the economy is the greatest mess since the Titanic, so either put up some concrete, supportable facts, or do Railpage a favour and stop drivelling.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
......
The Libs routinely support the HAVES over the HAVE LESS.
......
Not surprising the gap between the two will be even greater than ever.
Groundrelay

It didn't used to be like that, though.  Even though my grandparents hated Bob Menzies with a passion if you look at the history of many of the things the man did he was practically a benevolent socialist in comparison to Johnny Howard and Tony Abbott.  They actually had concerns about providing the very poor with medicines and set up the beginnings of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme; he also set up a very generous foreign aid program (giving our money to foreigners - imagine that) and modernised the Postmaster Generals' office so that people everywhere could direct dial (including rural people eventually).

I also like to think of people like Henry Bolte (VIC) and Tommy Playford (SA); both these Liberal premiers did wonderful, practically socialist things for their states (horror!).  Bolte spent big on the State Rivers Commission (rural water) and got the State Electricity Commission to connect many rural and remote places previously unable to access mains power.  Playford set up the Housing Trust of SA and the Electricity Trust SA to provide ordinary working people with access to cheap housing and cheap electricity; the primary aim was to attract industry like Chrysler and General Motors but it had the bonus of providing South Australians with jobs and houses.  I could almost forgive him for shutting down Adelaide's tram system for that!

Compare to the current aspirants who want to give wealthy people huge amounts of money to have babies.  It's crazy, the Liberals seem exclusively to be rewarding Johnny Howard's 'aspirationals' with more and more money for private health insurance, and private schools - stuff everyone else, it's their fault for being poor.  Haven't they ever heard of Marie Antoinette?

2301, I'm really glad I have you exercising your vocabulary.  As with Aaron, I've decided responding to you is only encouraging your problem - but I'll still hold the door open for you to comment about Andrew Robb's atrocious view on competition policy.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
2301, I'm really glad I have you exercising your vocabulary.
"don_dunstan"

Couldn't agree more; the experience could do him a power of good.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Your logic is quite bizarre.  It seems as though you are blaming the Liberals for the deficit and letting the current bunch off the hook because it was all just bad luck that they took over the reigns when they did.  

Yes, we had a mining boom, but you have to question why the need to spiral into so much debt considering we did not have to?  We did not have bank failures like other countries had and the economy was still going along reasonably well when Krudd decided he wanted to be Mr Popular and start p1ssing money recklessly up against the wall.  It is almost as though Krudd and Labor are unable to think things through - they just act on impulse with their bright ideas, like they did with border control and to hell with the consequences.

And now we have a situation where the budget is just spiralling out of control every month, with no end in sight from Krudd and Labor about pulling in the reigns - it is almost as though they are deliberately destroying the country so who ever takes over next will have to cop it.

And the Labor party aren't spending money on infrastructure like you have us believe.  Wouldn't you think all that money that was spent on NBN, school halls, pink batts and cash splashes would be better off being channelled into roads, rail and ports?
2301
Sorry "Watchdog", the only one here with a bizarre logic is you. What I have said is straight forward with no hidden meanings. If you can't take it as that, then it's your own personal problem. It might also pay you to change tact a little, as your debating is less than debatable. I'd have a better conversation with a scratched record.

No thanks, I don't want a "How to Vote" card for the Liberals...Rolling Eyes
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Big whoop Rosebud Rolling Eyes

Anyone who really believes that liberals are the 'better' economic managers are simply ignoring historic context.

FACT - when our trading partners are doing well this country's economy does well. Anyone can be a the helm and it would make SFA difference. However when the world isn't doing well, you actually have to do something. Some of us think 12% unemployment is worst than some deficit which is relatively modest considering the size of this economy.

Hardly surprising the Libs retreated from its surplus target given the continuing uncertainty around the global economy. The better economic managers claim is just as simplistic as the 'interest rates will always be lower' claim.
"Groundrelay"
Do you ever look up your own facts or do you just believe what Labor's 'proper ganders' (yes they're real geese) tell you?

Your FACT is actually a FALLACY, and it's quite easy to demonstrate as false. Since FY07-08 Australia's terms of trade have been going up, in fact we've had record terms of trade (if we ignore a very short peak coinciding with Menzies' second term in the office of PM) for every FY since 08-09. Trade is by far and away ahead of where is was from the mid 1950s (and it in fact trended negative until after Howard became PM), in terms of trade Australia has never had it so good.

So it would seem that our trading partners have been doing well, and by your FACT Australia ought to have been doing so too. Alas, it becomes obvious you've been listening to the wrong people, because we have not done that well and our trade has effectively never been better.

Next you'll tell me something about tax, and how receipts are down, well Labor have collected more revenue year on year and yet the deficit still grows, because they fail to comprehend one basic fact. That being, so long as you spend more than you earn you will always end in debt.

So I'll recap it for you, record terms of trade (our partners are therefore doing well), increasing tax receipts and yet increasing deficit, a deficit that has seen the debt ceiling raised twice to accommodate it. What excuse are you going to offer next?

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: br30453, CraigW, RTT_Rules, wurx

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.