Boat People - where to now!

 
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Can't you see that your fear is completely irrational and baseless, all you see is the hordes of invading masses coming though to our country by any means possible.  It isn't based in reality - the same as the Red Menace wasn't based in reality either.  It was just a tool to keep people frightened and it won Menzies lots of elections without having to even try.

Anyway 'illegals', even if they could enter the country that way, will be sent straight to Manus.  Are you paying attention?  They aren't granted asylum in Australia any longer.

And it's voila, not wallah.
don_dunstan

This is typical of those on the left side of this debate.  "Don't worry, it is only a few people."  "There's no problem at all, your just being completely irrational and hysterical."   This is just a ploy to get people away from the issue.

People that use this tactic are completely side stepping the argument.  Yes, I concede we're not facing a complete takeover at the moment, but this is a very serious problem with no end in sight.  There are so many facets to this problem that if it is left to fester it will develop into a situation that may completely undermine the finances of the Government.

And as far as Manus Island, it looks like it is already falling apart at the seams as the boats keep coming.  The boat people know that it will be challenged and they will get in through the back door as they plan.

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  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
UNBEEEELIEVABLE - Oh wait, not under a Liberal dictatorship it ain't (Hope you're sitting down!)

.
Bob Baldwin, Liberal member for Paterson was questioned by ABC's Paul Bevan about what happens when you are denied entry by Indonesia in Indonesian waters of turning the boats around. Badwin said "we will turn around the boats WITHIN Indonesian waters." Then he "tried" to correct himself, and say that "I mean push them back to Indonesian waters."

That's correct, he said IN, not TO at first.

I believe he meant the first option.

But both amount to invading a country, but the Libs love invading countries don't they?
Newcastle Express
Neither of them amount to invading a country! We have been through this before! It has been done before (four times), was it 'invading' then? NO! Would it be invading now? NO! - Why? See UN Convention on Laws of the Sea (UNCLOS) from whatever year it was (1982?), specifically you are looking at 'Innocent Passage' and you need to know that this treaty is RATIFIED by EVERYONE that counts including, Australia, Indonesia, PNG, etc, etc.

If you're more of a pop culture kind of guy, then just Wiki 'innocent passage' and you will probably even still be enlightened enough to get what an invasion is and isn't.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
It's a really unhealthy obsession you have there, 2301.  The fact that you rationalise it in the ways that you do tells me you've got a problem; nobody, not even the coalition, are entertaining the spectre of invading hordes.  It's so much like my Grandmother's rationalisations it's not funny.  At one stage she had extra bolts installed on the ceiling hatch because she had convinced herself that someone was going to break into her house through the ceiling and murder her in her sleep. Towards the end of my grandmother's life my old man used to get calls from the cops and the council social workers pressuring him to put her into care because she used to ring the police at the drop of a hat... one night because she had convinced herself that fighting possums in the backyard were really men trying to break into her house.  It was a really sad way for her to end her life being so frightened of everything.

I'm sorry to tell you but you are following the same sort of logic that my grandmother used to keep herself crazy and paranoid - you are worrying yourself to death over something that possible (that's true) but incredibly unlikely.  Even the most ardent alarmists in the media aren't talking about it.  So please, 2301, don't be like my grandmother - don't convince yourself that the shadows in the dark are baddies who've come to get you, that every handful of asylum seekers is the tip of an invading horde of millions.  Nobody else is talking about the things that you (and others) are discussing so that should tell you that your fears are groundless.  Think about it.

And it's not a leftist conspiracy - people who follow me from my posts would know that I'm not particularly enamoured with one side or the other but the totally way-out claims made by some people in this thread are just off the planet and they need to be bought back to earth.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
UNBEEEELIEVABLE - Oh wait, not under a Liberal dictatorship it ain't (Hope you're sitting down!)

.
Bob Baldwin, Liberal member for Paterson was questioned by ABC's Paul Bevan about what happens when you are denied entry by Indonesia in Indonesian waters of turning the boats around. Badwin said "we will turn around the boats WITHIN Indonesian waters." Then he "tried" to correct himself, and say that "I mean push them back to Indonesian waters."

That's correct, he said IN, not TO at first.

I believe he meant the first option.

But both amount to invading a country, but the Libs love invading countries don't they?

But then again, how is Labor legally going to send genuine refugees from Australia to PNG?

Interesting to note that for quite a lot of issues, Abbot is copying Rudd (eg: kicking genuine refugees from Australia)

A race to the bottom to see how low either main party can go!
Newcastle Express
It sounds like your splitting hairs here mate.  Maybe Bob just made a Freudian slip which is very easy to do in this situation.

And how do you know that they are genuine refugees?  Is this your assumption based on your own personal bias?
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Don't accuse me of being biased. I criticised both main parties, and yes I did call Liberals a dictatorship, just look at what their NSW counterparts are doing. The NSW Libs have sided with mining companies to try to get a mine near Bulga extended. The Libs are more dictatorship-like anyway. And Labor is just as bad.

I was stating what Bob Baldwin said.

Genuine refugees are either invited (EG: Vietnam War, etc), or are checked to see if they are genuine.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Don't accuse me of being biased. I criticised both main parties, and yes I did call Liberals a dictatorship, just look at what their NSW counterparts are doing. The NSW Libs have sided with mining companies to try to get a mine near Bulga extended. The Libs are more dictatorship-like anyway. And Labor is just as bad.

I was stating what Bob Baldwin said.

Genuine refugees are either invited (EG: Vietnam War, etc), or are checked to see if they are genuine.
"Newcastle Express"
You also alleged that turning back the boats was an invasion, want to reclarify that one too?
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Don't get your knickers knotted. All I am saying is that people arriving on our shores without passports or visas by airline can be routed off to PNG just as easily as boat arrivals. The only difference is the method of arrival. They could arrive by Tardis and the result would be the same.
TheBlacksmith

No worries - I don't. (Was agreeing). As I've stated boat people or plane people - anyone trying to circumvent our immigration process shouldn't get preference over someone without the means to get here .

At the same time I don't buy the over the top, can banging paranoia that pushes all 2301's buttons. My undies are loose and comfy Wink
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
My undies are loose and comfy Wink
cootanee
Sorry, too much information Laughing
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
No worries - I don't. (Was agreeing). As I've stated boat people or plane people - anyone trying to circumvent our immigration process shouldn't get preference over someone without the means to get here .

At the same time I don't buy the over the top, can banging paranoia that pushes all 2301's buttons. My undies are loose and comfy Wink
cootanee

It seems you have changed your tune just a little bit Cootanee?  When this discussion first started you were all for the open door policy, but since the Labor party changed their policy you are now advocating a stronger stance.  

I have noticed a lot of lefties are moving in this direction now.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
It seems you have changed your tune just a little bit Cootanee?  When this discussion first started you were all for the open door policy, but since the Labor party changed their policy you are now advocating a stronger stance.  

I have noticed a lot of lefties are moving in this direction now.
2301

Well it's clear that you've been so busy banging that can and applying that A + B = Z logic to pay attention.

As for your OPEN DOOR BS how about you...

- Explain what it is?

- Explain why with our supposedly open borders for 6 years we haven't had that invasion of 2 million from all over the world. After all you just get here and you're in Rolling Eyes

- Finally where did I advocate open door???? Given you're big into labelling sounds like 2301iar.

Sure I may not over react like some and I have no agenda.  It's a significant immigration and humanitarian issue and as I've pointed out no one should be treated better because they have the means to get here. There are other less significant issues that are being blown out of all proportion - why - because it's a political issue. But that's all to complicated isn't it?

Are you going to make it out as  a Judo-communist conspiracy next Shocked
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Well it's clear that you've been so busy banging that can and applying that A + B = Z logic to pay attention.

As for your OPEN DOOR BS how about you...

- Explain what it is?

- Explain why with our supposedly open borders for 6 years we haven't had that invasion of 2 million from all over the world. After all you just get here and you're in Rolling Eyes

- Finally where did I advocate open door???? Given you're big into labelling sounds like 2301iar.

Sure I may not over react like some and I have no agenda.  It's a significant immigration and humanitarian issue and as I've pointed out no one should be treated better because they have the means to get here. There are other less significant issues that are being blown out of all proportion - why - because it's a political issue. But that's all to complicated isn't it?

Are you going to make it out as  a Judo-communist conspiracy next Shocked
cootanee
Oh c'mon Cootanee, no need to be nasty about it, you know what I am talking about.  As far as the humanitarian quote of your argument goes, I fail to see how it is a humanitarian issue because these people are buying to put themselves in this position with the objective of achieving a specific purpose.

Let's not have a play on words, all throughout your previous posts you have been advocating for these so called poor dishevelled people to have the express lane opened up to them.

You don't think that this is not an invasion of some sorts?  The boats just keep coming and coming even with Rudd's new policy which is yet to be really tested.  I reckon Ruddy's PNG solution is just a ploy to get him to the election so he can say he is doing something about it.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Oh c'mon Cootanee, no need to be nasty about it, you know what I am talking about.  As far as the humanitarian quote of your argument goes, I fail to see how it is a humanitarian issue because these people are buying to put themselves in this position with the objective of achieving a specific purpose.

Let's not have a play on words, all throughout your previous posts you have been advocating for these so called poor dishevelled people to have the express lane opened up to them.

You don't think that this is not an invasion of some sorts?  The boats just keep coming and coming even with Rudd's new policy which is yet to be really tested.  I reckon Ruddy's PNG solution is just a ploy to get him to the election so he can say he is doing something about it.
2301
Nasty Exclamation I thought that was a quite restrained response to your over the top accusation. Just because some of us don't jump to the nth extreme  Rolling Eyes
Someone in the media once said that viewers switch off a news story if an 11 year old couldn't comprehend it.

Unless you are some hard core fascist, PEOPLE drowning is a humanitarian issue. PEOPLE (or whatever you think you need to call them) circumventing our immigration process is a legal issue and as I have always pointed out they don't deserve special treatment.

Sorry if that's still too confusing for you and your all or nothing world.

Anyway you couldn't respond to my questions could you. Guess that make you 2301iar

Oh... Ruddy must be your latest label Laughing
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!

Idea May as well give up coota. Some get it, some don't, can't or won't!
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
YEP!!!
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Agreed.  At some point argument only sustains the delusion because it shows the sufferer that "you're in on the conspiracy".  I think we've gone past that point now.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
I have a roll of high quality tin foil, if anyone is interested, surplus to requirements.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Naughty!
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
If the Australian Government years back had, had the balls back then to do something about the boat people we would not be having this discussion now. Most of us don't really give a fig about the rest of the world and their problems, each country has different ideas on things. But to get back to the boat people if it can be proved they come from Indonesia in the first place which should not be that hard to prove really then simply fly them back to Indonesia and just keep doing it. Sooner or later these people will wake up to the fact we are just going round in circles and save them selves a lot of money by not paying the locals in Indonesia to get them here. Once the bottom falls out of the market the people smugglers will also be put out of operation simply because they will get you there but you will be brought back to virtually were you started from again. It is simple enough.

They are free in Indonesia so why go the extra distance for nothing really. Both governments Australian and Indonesian could get together on this to try and stamp it out. Action speaks a lot louder than a lot of fancy words ever will. Something needs to be done not so much as to protect Australia's borders, but to protect the people that are trying to get here in boats, that if you will pardon the expression are in most cases not fit to cross a lagoon in Indonesia let along an ocean.

From Indonesia they could then be admitted to Australia on a case by case type of arrangement to legally get here if they want to that is. All it takes is both Indonesia and Australia to work together to stamp it out once and for all. Hot air is going to get no where fast. Indonesia could with help from Australia set up camps or the like where they can wait and be processed to come to Australia. It would most probably be cheaper than letting them come here and then have to feed and cloth them etc while they are waiting.

This is too simple though and most political hot air bags would say it would not work, but have they actually tried it, most probably not.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Speak for yourself. Rolling Eyes
  T88 Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
Abbotts solution is dum. He wants to buy the boats and destroy them. Well duh, the smugglers will simply construct more boats.
My resolution is to increase naval patrols on the edge of Australian waters and tow the boats back.
I have no problem with the UN policy. Insert "Stop the queue jumpers here"
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Why would Indonesia want to stop the boat trade?   Plenty of money flowing into their economy.   Fishermen getting rich without actually fishing (and no big disincentive when they get caught).   Officials getting their pay supplemented to turn a blind eye.   And getting up Australia to boot!
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Speak for yourself. Rolling Eyes
Barrington Womble

Simplistic 'solutions' are SO appealing to the masses.

You JUST do dah-deh-dah

Few people turn around and ask...

1. AND?

2. THEN WHAT?
  xke9600hp Train Controller

Don't worry about it,

Tony and the Liberal Team are going to solve all our problems!!
  andrew1996 Train Controller

Location: Fremantle
I don't see why everyone is worrying about how we are to go about stopping refugees. Sure, allowing them to travel in open ocean in such unseaworthy, crowded, unhygienic ships is BAD, but they are aware of this, and it should by a good indicator of how bad it is where they are coming from to take such a risk. I say let them all in, and stop spending so much money on border "protection".
  northbritish Chief Train Controller

I don't see why everyone is worrying about how we are to go about stopping refugees. Sure, allowing them to travel in open ocean in such unseaworthy, crowded, unhygienic ships is BAD, but they are aware of this, and it should by a good indicator of how bad it is where they are coming from to take such a risk. I say let them all in, and stop spending so much money on border "protection".
andrew1996
With an attitude like that, just surrendering to the gatecrashers makes you part of the problem.

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