Modelling Standards - a general discussion. Be nice, please

 
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
I think we are at a point in history where many modellers have never had a Lima loco.

Regards,
David Head
dthead

In all my many days of modelling, UK and Aust outline intermixed with USA over 40 plus years, I have never had a Lima Loco.

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  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I have some Lima on the layout with new wheels and other hidden away (should dump on ebay). But that doesn't mean I should make my layout Lima compatible, why should I stick with the lowest common denominator?

Models improve and so do standards, let's join in.

Mark
LaidlayM
I am not against improving models at all here but some things that are billed as improvements are not really improvements. Luggage racks you cannot see in a model normally, to me are just a gimmick. Details have got finer but when made in plastic like most are now I would much prefer some details diesel horns etc to be metal and a trifle over scale than to have a almost scale model with plastic horns that break really easily just getting it out of the box.

Handrails are another thing that I would like to see in metal as well as they too take a beating at times. Finer wheels on what are already finer wheels than the old Lima rollingstock is also a bug bear a bit, I love fine wheels to a point but I don't want or need to spend hours at a time to get models to simply run along a track without problems. NMRA standards for flanges as is now are quite all right for the majority of us modellers. If the finer standards people want to have finer standards for wheels etc on rollingstock then there should be a simple option to order it that way from the manufacturer or for some enterprising modeller to start his own business in after market exchange wheels etc to suit these modellers. The after market one is probably the cheaper one for the rail modeller in general though.
  miktrain Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide SA
...If the finer standards people want to have finer standards for wheels etc on rollingstock then there should be a simple option to order it that way from the manufacturer or for some enterprising modeller to start his own business in after market exchange wheels etc to suit these modellers. The after market one is probably the cheaper one for the rail modeller in general though.
David Peters
Actually it would probably work out cheaper overall to work the other way and have someone convert your fine wheels to not so fine ones, as there would be a large cheap supply of the not so fine ones and the enterprising modeller would never have to buy fine wheels for their own rolling stock.

Tony
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner



Finer wheels on what are already finer wheels than the old Lima rollingstock is also a bug bear a bit, I love fine wheels to a point but I don't want or need to spend hours at a time to get models to simply run along a track without problems. NMRA standards for flanges as is now are quite all right for the majority of us modellers. If the finer standards people want to have finer standards for wheels etc on rollingstock then there should be a simple option to order it that way from the manufacturer or for some enterprising modeller to start his own business in after market exchange wheels etc to suit these modellers. The after market one is probably the cheaper one for the rail modeller in general though.
David Peters Sniped
What is your problem is with the current fine scale wheels on RTR Australian models? My experience is there is no problem with the fine scale RTR wheels (excluding the small percentage of duds within the 1,000's made). I have recently purchased lots of 4 wheel wagons from Austrains, and bogie wagons from SDS. I have not had to do anything  to the wheels of these models. Both manufacturers have supplied fine scale wheels. I have shunted trains of 20 bogie wagons in length, (a mix of 4 wheelers and bogie cars) through Peco code 75 and code 83 turnouts, and trains of 16 bogie wagons in length (also a mixed consist) through Peco code 100 turnouts. None of my Eureka steam locomotives or rail motors have any trouble either with their fine scale wheels. None of this track is my handy work, it belongs to various clubs around Sydney. Recently I replaced 24 steam roller width RP25110 wheels with Auscission fine scale wheels, with no problems with derailments on the various club layouts. It all works because all the wheels and track dimensions are within the AMRA standards limits.

None of those wheels I recently purchased comply with the NMRA standard nor does Peco code 100 or code 75 turnouts, so it not alright for the majority of Australian modellers to use NMRA standards. It's the wrong standard to use if you use RTR turnouts.

I am also able to haul prototype loads with my steam outline locomotives up prototype grades, because all the RTR Australian models I purchased recently are close enough to the AMRA weight standard and are free rolling.

Old Lima pizza cutter wheels won't run on code 75 track, a wheel standard already considered coarse scale the day it was first published, about 60 years ago.

So I can only come to one conclusion, and that is if you are unable to get the fine scale RTR models to stay on your layout you have a track work problem. Fix your track work, don't blame well designed fine scale models.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

1. So there are no average people then? 50% + 50% = 100%

4. If the AMRA flange is twice the scale size how can you call it fine scale?

Tony
miktrain
Flanges in H0 that are approximately 2 times scale flanges have been referred to as fine scale for over 60 years. See the NMRA standard S4.1.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Just to add - in earlier posts, it was mentioned that Peco & NMRA standards are not a match.  Well I asked Peco themselves & this is their answer regarding Code 83

Dear Mr Solly

Thank you for your email.

We can confirm that PECO code 83 turnouts are made to NMRA standards.

Kind regards
A Beard
PECO Technical Advice Bureau

Howe & Davis Ltd
Registered address: Underleys, Beer, Seaton, Devon EX12 3NA
sol
And I can confirm they comply with the AMRA standards.
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
And I can confirm they comply with the AMRA standards.
NSWGR1855

So that means Peco 83 are to both NMRA & AMRA standards? So why persist in renaming something that is a world wide modelling name of the NMRA?
  Teditor Deputy Commissioner

Location: Toowoomba
So that means Peco 83 are to both NMRA & AMRA standards? So why persist in renaming something that is a world wide modelling name of the NMRA?
sol
He's back, we've missed you Terry.

I do find a contradictory statement made in that Eureka advertise their wheels as NMRA RP25 and you state no problems with your Eureka locomotives on NMRA/AMRA/Peco track.

Still leaving a lot of us confused I'm afraid!
  2LaGrange Train Controller

Terry you continue to spell Auscision Wrong ! Its one s not two.As for SDS bogie wagons not giving any trouble I have to say my tank wagons do not roll well at all.And lets not even mention the terrible wheel sets on the Eureka HUB sets.If manufacturers are going to produce fine scale wheels they could at least ensure the things roll !!
I think Auscision have the right idea as they produce a standard wheel that satisfy the vast majority of modellers and will work on any layout but sell as a separate item fine scale wheels for people who want extra fine scale wheel on their models.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Terry you continue to spell Auscision Wrong ! Its one s not two.As for SDS bogie wagons not giving any trouble I have to say my tank wagons do not roll well at all.And lets not even mention the terrible wheel sets on the Eureka HUB sets.If manufacturers are going to produce fine scale wheels they could at least ensure the things roll !!
I think Auscision have the right idea as they produce a standard wheel that satisfy the vast majority of modellers and will work on any layout but sell as a separate item fine scale wheels for people who want extra fine scale wheel on their models.
2LaGrange
Exactly my point about the wheels, for the minority that want scale flanges etc on their wheels they can simply swap them out while the majority of us have fun simply plonking them on our layout.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
What is your problem is with the current fine scale wheels on RTR Australian models? My experience is there is no problem with the fine scale RTR wheels (excluding the small percentage of duds within the 1,000's made). I have recently purchased lots of 4 wheel wagons from Austrains, and bogie wagons from SDS. I have not had to do anything  to the wheels of these models. Both manufacturers have supplied fine scale wheels. I have shunted trains of 20 bogie wagons in length, (a mix of 4 wheelers and bogie cars) through Peco code 75 and code 83 turnouts, and trains of 16 bogie wagons in length (also a mixed consist) through Peco code 100 turnouts. None of my Eureka steam locomotives or rail motors have any trouble either with their fine scale wheels. None of this track is my handy work, it belongs to various clubs around Sydney. Recently I replaced 24 steam roller width RP25110 wheels with Auscission fine scale wheels, with no problems with derailments on the various club layouts. It all works because all the wheels and track dimensions are within the AMRA standards limits.

None of those wheels I recently purchased comply with the NMRA standard nor does Peco code 100 or code 75 turnouts, so it not alright for the majority of Australian modellers to use NMRA standards. It's the wrong standard to use if you use RTR turnouts.

I am also able to haul prototype loads with my steam outline locomotives up prototype grades, because all the RTR Australian models I purchased recently are close enough to the AMRA weight standard and are free rolling.

Old Lima pizza cutter wheels won't run on code 75 track, a wheel standard already considered coarse scale the day it was first published, about 60 years ago.

So I can only come to one conclusion, and that is if you are unable to get the fine scale RTR models to stay on your layout you have a track work problem. Fix your track work, don't blame well designed fine scale models.
NSWGR1855
Terry how about reading what I said then reading it again and a third time will you before hitting the key board I never said there was anything wrong with the current wheels supplied at all I just said that the current wheels that are supplied are far superior to the old Pizza Cutter wheels of Lima. I have no trouble at all with derailments at home or at the NRM caused by wheels. You seem to go of half cocked and don't read all that is posted by people it pays to read it and if you don't or won't understand then ask about it instead of going on like a raving lunatic.

You have just told us all though that your RTR locomotives will work on Peco track etc isn't that what we have been telling you all along. I quote Teditor here, " I do find a contradictory statement made in that Eureka advertise their wheels as NMRA RP25 and you state no problems with your Eureka locomotives on NMRA/AMRA/Peco track.
Still leaving a lot of us confused I'm afraid!"

Yes all you have done now is confused everyone. What is actually right and what is actually wrong you tell us one thing and do the exact opposite.
  miktrain Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide SA
And I can confirm they comply with the AMRA standards.
NSWGR1855
Once again you have that backwards, it is actually AMRA standards comply with Peco

Tony
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
He's back, we've missed you Terry.

I do find a contradictory statement made in that Eureka advertise their wheels as NMRA RP25 and you state no problems with your Eureka locomotives on NMRA/AMRA/Peco track.

Still leaving a lot of us confused I'm afraid!
Teditor
Agreed, this place is boring without Terry.

Saying that NMRA RP25-88 wheels work on NMRA/AMRA/Peco track is not confusing or contradictory.  It's just like saying 98 octane fuel will work in my Hyundai Excel, wasted - but it works.

Mark
  james13 Chief Commissioner

Location: At the Skunk Works
I have just rejoined AMRA after many years and recently received the AMRA standards booklet, talk about Terry being confusing on here, you should try and make sense of the booklet (standards section). The biggest problem is that there is just way too much information contained in it for the average modeller. The title says "A guide for beginners in model railways and A.M.R.A. standards" which I'm assuming is aimed at the noobs to the hobby. When you join AMRA on the internet which I did, they ask what scales you model so maybe a better suggestion would be have an introductory guide to model railways and a seperate booklet with the standard that relates to the particular gauge/scale instead of all of them.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

So that means Peco 83 are to both NMRA & AMRA standards? So why persist in renaming something that is a world wide modelling name of the NMRA?
sol
I am not renaming anything. PECO code 83 turnouts comply with both standards, which means all wheels conforming to both standards work without derailment on PECO code 83 track. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for PECO code 100 and 75 turnouts. Not all wheels conforming to NMRA standards will operate derailment free through the latter more common PECO turnouts.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Terry you continue to spell Auscision Wrong ! Its one s not two.As for SDS bogie wagons not giving any trouble I have to say my tank wagons do not roll well at all.And lets not even mention the terrible wheel sets on the Eureka HUB sets.If manufacturers are going to produce fine scale wheels they could at least ensure the things roll !!
I think Auscision have the right idea as they produce a standard wheel that satisfy the vast majority of modellers and will work on any layout but sell as a separate item fine scale wheels for people who want extra fine scale wheel on their models.
2LaGrange
I would suggest the SDS wagons you have are from the "not quite right" batch sold at a discount price. The full price versions roll well, and the SDS wagons I was referring to also included BCW's. The HUB set wheels were mostly under gauge, outside the AMRA standards limits, hence the problem, which is easily fixed by increasing the back to back dimension to the recommended AMRA value. In both cases the Chineese manufacturers had quality control issues, supplying models outside the specifications supplied by the local designers.

Why supply steam roller width wheels when finescale wheels can be supplied for the same price that are proven to work perfectly well.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

He's back, we've missed you Terry.

I do find a contradictory statement made in that Eureka advertise their wheels as NMRA RP25 and you state no problems with your Eureka locomotives on NMRA/AMRA/Peco track.

Still leaving a lot of us confused I'm afraid!
Teditor

NMRA RP 25 refers to a flange profile that is only recommended. Any flange profile complies with both AMRA and NMRA standards.
There is an overlap between both standards so you can make a wheel that complies with both standards.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Exactly my point about the wheels, for the minority that want scale flanges etc on their wheels they can simply swap them out while the majority of us have fun simply plonking them on our layout.
David Peters
It has been shown beyond reasonable doubt that the fine scale wheels on today's models should achieve your desire to plonking them on the layout and having fun.  That's what I do now without the need to replace steam roller wheels. I also wish all manufacturers used Kadee scale head whisker couplers, that too would save time and money.

There is no problem with fine scale wheels unless you have poorly laid track work, and finescale wheels with the AMRA flange profile out perform NMRA RP25 110 flanges on sharp curves.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Terry how about reading what I said then reading it again and a third time will you before hitting the key board I never said there was anything wrong with the current wheels supplied at all I just said that the current wheels that are supplied are far superior to the old Pizza Cutter wheels of Lima. I have no trouble at all with derailments at home or at the NRM caused by wheels. You seem to go of half cocked and don't read all that is posted by people it pays to read it and if you don't or won't understand then ask about it instead of going on like a raving lunatic.

You have just told us all though that your RTR locomotives will work on Peco track etc isn't that what we have been telling you all along. I quote Teditor here, " I do find a contradictory statement made in that Eureka advertise their wheels as NMRA RP25 and you state no problems with your Eureka locomotives on NMRA/AMRA/Peco track.
Still leaving a lot of us confused I'm afraid!"

Yes all you have done now is confused everyone. What is actually right and what is actually wrong you tell us one thing and do the exact opposite.
David Peters
I have reread your earlier posts. Now you are now saying a completely different thing in this post.  If you have no problem with fine scale wheels why were you advocating going back to NMRA RP25-110 wheels for Australian H0 RTR. I have told you that PECO code100 and 75 turnouts are not to NMRA standards. I have numerous examples of NMRA compliant wheels that derail on these turnouts.

What I do is run wheels that fully comply with AMRA standards, the standard that current PECO code 75,83 and 100 track complies with. The AMRA standard is the standard most Australian H0 RTR models complies with. Where possible I use Auscision fine scale wheels that are now available to update my older models. For spoked wheels it's Steam Era wheels, with the the back to back corrected. Yes I still have a couple of old models with steam roller width wheels, which will end up on my model history shelf with my old Triang toys.

On my home layout I build new turnouts to the AMRA fine tolerance standard. In my fiddle yard I use code100 30 year old made in Japan turnouts, corrected to comply with the AMRA standard.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Once again you have that backwards, it is actually AMRA standards comply with Peco

Tony
miktrain
The above is a good example of news group crap.

Products or processes either comply or do not comply to a standard. It appears you do not understand the basic function of a standard.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

I have just rejoined AMRA after many years and recently received the AMRA standards booklet, talk about Terry being confusing on here, you should try and make sense of the booklet (standards section). The biggest problem is that there is just way too much information contained in it for the average modeller. The title says "A guide for beginners in model railways and A.M.R.A. standards" which I'm assuming is aimed at the noobs to the hobby. When you join AMRA on the internet which I did, they ask what scales you model so maybe a better suggestion would be have an introductory guide to model railways and a seperate booklet with the standard that relates to the particular gauge/scale instead of all of them.
james13
Welcome to AMRA.

I agree that a seperate set of standards for each scale would be easier to use. Unfortunately the cost to print all the separate scale based standards would be considerably more than the current printing cost. This would make the new members fee excessive in my view. Another problem is allot of members indicate more than one scale and I am sure the federal registrar does not want a more complex system to administer.
  2LaGrange Train Controller

I would suggest the SDS wagons you have are from the "not quite right" batch sold at a discount price. The full price versions roll well, and the SDS wagons I was referring to also included BCW's. The HUB set wheels were mostly under gauge, outside the AMRA standards limits, hence the problem, which is easily fixed by increasing the back to back dimension to the recommended AMRA value. In both cases the Chineese manufacturers had quality control issues, supplying models outside the specifications supplied by the local designers.

Why supply steam roller width wheels when finescale wheels can be supplied for the same price that are proven to work perfectly well.
NSWGR1855

Not sure about the "not quite right" batch,at $65.00 per wagon the price seemed "not quite right" !!.
Auscisions RP25-110 wheels come standard on wagons and can be bought for $14.95 per pack of 12 wheel sets while their RP25-88 fine scale wheels are $24.95 for 12 wheel sets so your argument that they can supply fine scale wheels at no extra cost in wagon packs would not be true.Auscision obviously see that the vast majority of buyers are happy with RP25-110 wheels and do not see the need to add extra cost to the models to keep a tiny vocal minority happy.If you want fine scale wheels on your Auscision and other brand ready to run models go and buy the wheels.I am happy with RP25-110 wheels.
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
The wheels on the carriage go round and round, round and round, the wheels on the carriage go round and round and here we go again.

Wayne
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Not sure about the "not quite right" batch,at $65.00 per wagon the price seemed "not quite right" !!.
Auscisions RP25-110 wheels come standard on wagons and can be bought for $14.95 per pack of 12 wheel sets while their RP25-88 fine scale wheels are $24.95 for 12 wheel sets so your argument that they can supply fine scale wheels at no extra cost in wagon packs would not be true.Auscision obviously see that the vast majority of buyers are happy with RP25-110 wheels and do not see the need to add extra cost to the models to keep a tiny vocal minority happy.If you want fine scale wheels on your Auscision and other brand ready to run models go and buy the wheels.I am happy with RP25-110 wheels.
2LaGrange

Your right about the $65 being "not quite right". According to their web page single tank wagons are only $63 plus postage for their non discounted product. The single wagon price for a SDS 3 pack tank wagon works out just under $62.34 each, cheaper than the competitions tank cars which come with steam roller width wheels.

The not quite right batch existed, at a discounted price. I got some and was lucky. All mine roll OK, down a 1 in 50 grade, but some of my mates got some that were not as good rolling wise. We all new they were not up to the SDS best standard, they were clearly advertised as "not quite right" hence the discount price. Even though they were not quite right, with a little adjustment, overall, in my view they ended up better than the alternative which comes with steam roller width wheels. The steam roller wheeled Southern Rail tank wagons are the same price for single tank wagons.

Austrains 4 wheel wagons with fine scale wheels work out close to the same price as the Auscission 4 wheel wagons with steam roller width wheels. The price difference is $1 for a pack of 6 wagons. The price difference is more to do with marketing rather than wheel differences in this case. $240 verses $239

NWSL fine scale wheels are the same price as their steam roller width wheels.


The fact is there is no significant cost difference in the production cost of these wheels on a volume RTR model. The manufacturing tolerances are the same. If anything, there is a cost saving in doing fine scale wheels, they require less material.

My guess is the Auscission steam roller width wheels are cheaper because they were tacked on to a RTR production model, hence an economy of scale due to a large volume produced at the time compared to smaller run of their fine scale wheels. The Auscision fine scale wheels are around 30% cheaper than some other brands of steam roller width wheels, and track better than most steam roller width wheels.


If you want to replace fine scale wheels with second rate steam roller width wheels, fine, waste your time and money. I am more than happy with the fine scale wheels being supplied on Australian RTR models at no extra cost and so are most of the customers.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I wonder what a comparison between real (prototypical) steam roller wheels and the model wheels fitted to some models would show. I don't think that they would be anywhere near the width of a steam rollers. Which does sort of put the kibosh on the statement which appeared multiple times in the previous post.  He speaks like a politician, repeating the same old mantra over and over again, with no consideration as to whether it is correct or not...

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