Steel Train Derailment at Mordialloc

 
  historian Deputy Commissioner

The Leader photo is interesting. No apparent failure in the bogie or wheelset. Righthand wheel of leading wheelset in bogie derailed passing through a lefthand turnout.

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  ab123 Chief Train Controller

In this weeks Weekly Operational Notice there is a note stating that the Down Long Island has to go through 1A, so the signal panel is required to be switched in for this.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
In this weeks Weekly Operational Notice there is a note stating that the Down Long Island has to go through 1A, so the signal panel is required to be switched in for this.
ab123

Could we draw from this update the theory above by Skitz of the load and the points contributing may have some truth?  

It makes perfect sense for the down service to run the 1A and to not diverge. This was a talking point at the derailment by bystanders. Logical?

Regards
Brian
  Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

Location: Lilydale, Vic
Years ago I saw a similar thing at Bacchus Marsh when an up jet for some strange reason was routed via the platform road rather than the straight 2 road. Needless to say one of the wagons jumped off and they lost hours trying to rerail the train. Having said that, seems strange to just react to the points at Mordi when the train needs to negotiate turnouts all through Southern Cross / Flinders Street / Caulfield etc.

What time does the night steelie run on the down? I imagine this will have to be switched in as well - if it was after the least spark you could almost switch out leaving the road set for 1A.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
If you can't distribute the load evenly then you load to the rear.  Same with a truck.  That keeps the maximum adhesion over the back end.  With automatic braking the application should be made (on a train of this length) within a few of seconds along the full length meaning the tail should not propel the head forwards appreciably even in a location such as this where the train was running downhill.

I would be looking at the brake rigging and wheels of the offending wagon.  It doesn't take much of a grab to have a wheelset lift and if that coincides with a track irregularity, point blade or change of curve radius then off she comes.

Mordy panel is controlled by the station staff and is switched in for timetabled shunt moves to and from the sidings plus those timetabled to run through 1A (the centre road) and can be switched in quickly at any time if required.  

As others have said the layout does not permit an up move via 1A; there is a down-to-up crossover north of the station but no matching up-to-down one at the south end.
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
If you can't distribute the load evenly then you load to the rear.  Same with a truck.  That keeps the maximum adhesion over the back end.  With automatic braking the application should be made (on a train of this length) within a few of seconds along the full length meaning the tail should not propel the head forwards appreciably even in a location such as this where the train was running downhill.
Gwiwer
Perhaps I misinterpret what you are saying, but this doesn't make sense to me, nor match typical operating practice.

Trucks are loaded with weight preferentially over the rear axles for axle weight distribution and [hence] traction.  If you extrapolate that to a train (or to a wagon) that doesn't imply rear loading.  (Within independent head end braking on a train you definitely do not want the weight at the rear.)
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

If Mordialloc was switched out then the signal at the down end of the platform stays at stop for a long time, so the train almost has to stop. Braking downhill, combined with the lightest wagon being over the s-bend for the diverge, and the heavy stuff pushing it into the loco. Switching in for 5 minutes would have saved them a heap of trouble.
  FullSeries Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
If you can't distribute the load evenly then you load to the rear.  Same with a truck.  That keeps the maximum adhesion over the back end.  With automatic braking the application should be made (on a train of this length) within a few of seconds along the full length meaning the tail should not propel the head forwards appreciably even in a location such as this where the train was running downhill.
Gwiwer

I'm pretty sure you don't want the weight at the back of a (mostly) empty train. It can take upwards of 20 seconds on a long train for the brake pipe to have sufficiently decreased enough in the rear cars to do its work with the TV and actually apply the brakes. All that time with that weigh unbraked against the locos and front cars that are braking? Doesn't sound right to me.
  thekingoffoxes Chief Train Controller

As others have said the layout does not permit an up move via 1A; there is a down-to-up crossover north of the station but no matching up-to-down one at the south end.
Gwiwer
I don't think there would be much point routing an up via 1A as platform 1 has no divergence anyway.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
If you can't distribute the load evenly then you load to the rear.  Same with a truck.  That keeps the maximum adhesion over the back end.  With automatic braking the application should be made (on a train of this length) within a few of seconds along the full length meaning the tail should not propel the head forwards appreciably even in a location such as this where the train was running downhill.
"Gwiver"
Wherever possible, you never load more weight to the rear of an empty wagon, and you'll find both ARTC and RailCorp have specific restrictions to train handling standards where you have more than 2000 tonnes trailing an empty wagon.
  Bullucked Assistant Commissioner

Mordy panel is controlled by the station staff and is switched in for timetabled shunt moves to and from the sidings plus those timetabled to run through 1A (the centre road) and can be switched in quickly at any time if required.  
Gwiwer
Think you'll find that when the panel is switched in there must be a 2nd staff member in attendance to deal with the customers, except in case of emergencies.
  Bullucked Assistant Commissioner

Looks like the steelie has disgraced itself again, this time between Richmond and Flinders Street. Has become divided ("pulled the knuckle off" I was told) with, at least, 1/2 dozen wagons sitting in the section. Dunno what delays (if any) it's causing.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Nothing on Metro's site.  Moderate delays west of Flinders Street but that's a signal problem.  Plenty of spare capacity this time of night to work around a failure.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Have heard the alleged cause of the derailment at "Mordy" was due to a fault axle spring??  Can someone please explain how this works?

Regards
Brian
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Have heard the alleged cause of the derailment at "Mordy" was due to a fault axle spring??  Can someone please explain how this works?

Regards
Brian
bevans
Sounds odd to me
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yes. A "Faulty Axle Spring"

Regards
Brian
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Axles are sprung on coils, leaf-springs or air bags depending upon vehicle and often a combination of the above.  The images show that the wagons involved have coil spring suspension.  If a coil breaks or becomes displaced it is "faulty" and that would be more than enough to cause a derailment especially when laden.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Not saying that it couldn't happen but still sounds odd to me - especially on an empty wagon.
  Black Hoppers Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
Axles are sprung on coils, leaf-springs or air bags depending upon vehicle and often a combination of the above.  The images show that the wagons involved have coil spring suspension.  If a coil breaks or becomes displaced it is "faulty" and that would be more than enough to cause a derailment especially when laden.
"Gwiwer"



Will you quit posting junk that you know nothing about.

3 Piece bogies such as the one that derailed have a nest of 5 springs  on each side of the bogie underneath the sping plank or bolster with 3 of those 5 also having a inner spring in each therefore 1 spring failing would not cause the derailment alone.

Possibly and i say possibly it could have been cause by a spring in the bolster friction wedges failing which tends to unload the bogie on the side its failed on causing the bolster to twist out of position.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Will you quit posting junk that you know nothing about.

3 Piece bogies such as the one that derailed have a nest of 5 springs  on each side of the bogie underneath the sping plank or bolster with 3 of those 5 also having a inner spring in each therefore 1 spring failing would not cause the derailment alone.

Possibly and i say possibly it could have been cause by a spring in the bolster friction wedges failing which tends to unload the bogie on the side its failed on causing the bolster to twist out of position.
Black Hoppers
Thanks BH you have summarised my thoughts (which I was not technically qualified to put on paper) pretty well.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Will you quit posting junk that you know nothing about.

3 Piece bogies such as the one that derailed have a nest of 5 springs  on each side of the bogie underneath the sping plank or bolster with 3 of those 5 also having a inner spring in each therefore 1 spring failing would not cause the derailment alone.

Possibly and i say possibly it could have been cause by a spring in the bolster friction wedges failing which tends to unload the bogie on the side its failed on causing the bolster to twist out of position.
Thanks BH you have summarised my thoughts (which I was not technically qualified to put on paper) pretty well.

It will be interesting to see the wheel condition, side bearer clearances, train handling and track condition in due course.
  Black Hoppers Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
Thanks BH you have summarised my thoughts (which I was not technically qualified to put on paper) pretty well.

It will be interesting to see the wheel condition, side bearer clearances, train handling and track condition in due course.
"YM-Mundrabilla"


YM
Thanks for that, yeah It will surely be one of those that caused it or even a track fualt at the points causing the wheel to lift.

Bevans
There is no springs at the axles as indeed shown by your photos as these type of bogies are not set up that way.
It would seem someone may have given you dud information
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sent to me last week by a friend of mine:

When I returned to Mordialloc station to catch a train to the City just after three o'clock on Friday, I did get to speak to the staff member on duty in the signal box as he was shunting trains from the siding for the afternoon peak. He told me that the signal box had been staffed when the steel train I saw earlier in the day go down the centre track at Mordialloc station and this would be the routine "until further notice," as put it. He also repeated what I'd been told a few days before by a staff member, who was inspecting the track near where the derailment occurred, that the cause had been the failure of an axle on the leading wagon.
Somebody

Regards
Brian
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Sent to me by a friend of mine last week:


Regards
Brian
bevans
Still doesn't sound right to me. The only axle failures relevant that I can think of is a screwed journal or a broken axle. Neither seems to be the case here or the cause would be obvious.

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