New Timetables For Regional Nsw

 
  evilestfunkiest Beginner

Ive got some questions about the new timetables they are bringing out,firstly how does sending the melbourne train via east hills save it time when it seems that that particular train likes to run late,plus why is it that apart from removing strathfield from the stopping pattern of canberra and melbourne trains,why there isnt any other kind of change like in the north coast and north western timetables.

I only ask because im curious for both myself and my family who use that train quite regularly,it seems really this isnt a new timetable at all,forgive me if this sounds ignorant

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  Hendikins Junior Train Controller

Location: I'm on ur trainz, announcin' ur stationz!
Well QR will be happy with the changes to the Brisbane XPT. Passengers on the other hand...

Old timetable:
SYD dep 1612
BNE arr 0630
BNE dep 0730
SYD arr 2106

New timetable:
SYD dep 1441
BNE arr 0453
BNE dep 0555
SYD arr 2012

QR will be happy to have the path currently used by the XPT released to run more AM peak Gold Coast - Brisbane services, but I can't see the XPT passengers being too happy about the change (during DST the XPT will now depart Brisbane before the first suburban services arrive at Roma St!)
  evilestfunkiest Beginner

it beats me where they come up with their ideas,theyve changed times for the trains heading north west and north coast,but nothing for south except for removing a stop,i know im an amateur and all,but i fail to see how removing 10mins from a trains time saves time when the majority of the time that train runs late.

I wonder why they changed the times for brissy that way seems kind of a stupid hour to get into brisbane especially during dst
  boromisa Junior Train Controller

Less passengers you have, easier it is to kill of the thing.
  evilestfunkiest Beginner

Its funny how they are describing this as a new timetable,yet really everything is the same with the exception of the brisbane xpt and the armidale/moree explorer,theres nothing even remotely new or changed,except for the pretty new format they are using in the timetables,perhaps the new format will make the trains run on-time:lol:
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
it beats me where they come up with their ideas,theyve changed times for the trains heading north west and north coast,but nothing for south except for removing a stop,i know im an amateur and all,but i fail to see how removing 10mins from a trains time saves time when the majority of the time that train runs late.

I wonder why they changed the times for brissy that way seems kind of a stupid hour to get into brisbane especially during dst
evilestfunkiest
The Canberra train saves 10 minutes, and can also use the non-congested up/down main from Revesby to Wolli Creek, which is better than crawling behind a Regents Park train. The Melbourne train hasn't cut any time to try and increase its chance of staying in its path to and from Campbelltown (increase on time running) I'd say.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Well, yay for the Brisbane XPT. Not.

I can only think the airlines will be even happier to gain a few more customers (and I mean a few more customers).
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
Countrylink is operating in a horizontally integrated rail regime.
Timetables are ultimately determined by the Track Owners and Countrylink will have to fit its trains in
based on what train paths are available.
Thats why there wont be much change.
In the case of the Brisbane XPT, its QR who decide when it can arrive and depart from Roma St.
  evilestfunkiest Beginner

As a novice i dont wanna put my foot into my mouth more than i do,i can understand they need to fit their trains in where they can,maybe instead of saying a new timetable,perhaps they should have worded it as a revised,if something is new youd expect to see it,i guess i still dont see the logic of not having the xpt to melbourne not going to strathfield,it was interesting when i rang nsw trainlink they said it was to save time,but anyone who catches that train on a regular basis would know it seems to run late more often than not,so going the different way isnt really saving time,but im an amateur,its just curiosity on my part
  jdennis Junior Train Controller

I live in the north west, so I'm quite pleased with the 'new' timetable and its lack of changes - apart from slightly earlier trains in both directions nothing has changed drastically, thankfully no night trains or anything!
  RegionalReverie Beginner

Here's a head-scratcher ...

The Sydney-Brisbane XPT (Service 031) no longer stops at Nambucca Heads. But there's a connecting coach service to/from Nambucca Heads at Macksville, just for that service. Does anyone have any idea why this might be the case?

I'd love to be a passenger arriving at Roma Street at 3:53am in the morning in summer, waiting two hours with the vagrants and methadone clinic clients for the first connecting bus or train home. I bet Yellow Cabs and Black & White Cabs are rubbing their hands with glee.

Good to see that Canberra goes back to 3 services a day every day. Apart from that I haven't found much joy in these new regional timetables.
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
...it was interesting when i rang nsw trainlink they said it was to save time,but anyone who catches that train on a regular basis would know it seems to run late more often than not,so going the different way isnt really saving time...
evilestfunkiest
What does an opportunity to cut journey time in a future timetable have to do with the amount of delay to services under a previous timetable?

"I am going to walk faster to work tomorrow but it won't make any difference to when I get there because I was late yesterday."

The more significant issue with the change away from Strathfield is that connections between services are now far more difficult, to put it mildly.
  XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
Can't see much point to moving the departure from Armidale toward Sydney forward by 20 minutes to 0840. Is there an advantage to getting into Central at 1640-odd versus the previous 1700?

And we may as well say good-bye to the Brisbane XPT now.
  boromisa Junior Train Controller

In the case of the Brisbane XPT, its QR who decide when it can arrive and depart from Roma St.
MD
Indeed.

However, if there was an issue with current arrival time then it should have been moved to the other side of morning peak i.e. 10am-11am. This would be much better in terms of hotel check in hours, not having to wake up relatives at 3am to pick you up, availability of transport options and similar.

The fact is that they don't care. Both Liberal governments view it as an expense. NSW Govt how cannot get rid of the train since Nats will go mad, so they decided to kill it off slowly. Who is going to want to arrive in Brisbane at that time? Even flights dont start until 5am.

Another thing is that the Bathurst service is not displayed in the Western Region timetable. I know it is an intercity service but wasn't the whole point of this multi million dollar re-branding exercise that NSW TrainLink would amalgamate intercity and regional services into one operation?
  CaseyJones Chief Commissioner

Location: A little south of sanity
As a novice i dont wanna put my foot into my mouth more than i do,i can understand they need to fit their trains in where they can,maybe instead of saying a new timetable,perhaps they should have worded it as a revised,if something is new youd expect to see it,i guess i still dont see the logic of not having the xpt to melbourne not going to strathfield,it was interesting when i rang nsw trainlink they said it was to save time,but anyone who catches that train on a regular basis would know it seems to run late more often than not,so going the different way isnt really saving time,but im an amateur,its just curiosity on my part
evilestfunkiest

South via East Hills has many advantages. Reduced transit time, less congestion, less chance of further delays when running off timetabled path, increased chance of making up time to get service back on time (dependent on how slack normal path is)....

Travelling via Strathfield has caused considerable delays to South services when other services from other lines are delayed. If you want to catch the train to a regional location on the Southern corridor it is not difficult to get yourself to Sydney Terminal.

I daresay the times your Melbourne bound XPT has been late out of Sydney was due to the late arrival of NT36, the set that forms ST21. This situation may change with this service being scheduled to arrive in Sydney roughly an hour earlier from what I can see in the new timetable.

There are some oddities to be seen here http://www.newtimetables.com.au/ - search 'Casino to Central'...I did and it gave me a departure time of 03:25 and an arrival of 06:59 - a 3'34" journey! Not bad for the XPT Laughing

Cheers
  boromisa Junior Train Controller

There are some oddities to be seen here http://www.newtimetables.com.au/ - search 'Casino to Central'...I did and it gave me a departure time of 03:25 and an arrival of 06:59 - a 3'34" journey! Not bad for the XPT Laughing

Cheers
CaseyJones
HSR has arrived.
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
Can't see much point to moving the departure from Armidale toward Sydney forward by 20 minutes to 0840. Is there an advantage to getting into Central at 1640-odd versus the previous 1700?
jb17kx
The advantage is that the interurban Newcastle to Sydney services can run a clock-face timetable.
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
...If you want to catch the train to a regional location on the Southern corridor it is not difficult to get yourself to Sydney Terminal...

CaseyJones
My reading (correct me if I'm wrong) is that a northern regional to southern regional connection now requires an overnight stay in Sydney.

Perhaps there were only a handful of people that did this (though I suspect it is more than that - because when I've been on late running inbound services from the north there always seemed to be a little bit of drama going on about missed connections) that didn't make it worth keeping - but still - the "network effect" loss is disappointing.
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
However, if there was an issue with current arrival time then it should have been moved to the other side of morning peak i.e. 10am-11am. This would be much better in terms of hotel check in hours, not having to wake up relatives at 3am to pick you up, availability of transport options and similar.
boromisa
You end up with a horrible time for the return service to get back into Sydney though.  Operationally I wonder whether such a late arrival is difficult.

Swapping the Casino and Brisbane services (approximately) would seem reasonable.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
My reading (correct me if I'm wrong) is that a northern regional to southern regional connection now requires an overnight stay in Sydney.

Perhaps there were only a handful of people that did this (though I suspect it is more than that - because when I've been on late running inbound services from the north there always seemed to be a little bit of drama going on about missed connections) that didn't make it worth keeping - but still - the "network effect" loss is disappointing.
"donttellmywife"
Probably. This is why I wrote that 'WatsonLink' timetable on the Armchair Operators board; during my next break, I will probably further enhance it. The key idea was to create a hub in Sydney to allow cross-regional travel, connecting in Sydney. A "network effect" is important to keep this sickly operation afloat.

You end up with a horrible time for the return service to get back into Sydney though.  Operationally I wonder whether such a late arrival is difficult.

Swapping the Casino and Brisbane services (approximately) would seem reasonable.
"donttellmywife"
Alright, gentlemen. Let us take our seats in these rather comfortable armchairs; the servants will have the tea with us presently.

Running the Brisbane service out overnight and back daylight presents some serious problems, mainly related to its return trip. If we were to time the Brisbane service to arrive after morning peak in Brisbane, we'd need to look at a slot of about 1030 NSW time, given that during DST Queensland is an hour behind. We end up with this:

SYD 2100 BNE 1030+1
BNE 1115 SYD 0045+1

Somehow, I don't think this is any more attractive at the Sydney end than the new Brisbane end. You can try swapping it around some more, but basically the three problems are:

1. The current timetable wastes a valuable AM peak slot that QR wants to reclaim for its Gold Coast service.
2. If we move it any earlier, the Brisbane arrival is too early.
3. If we move it any later, the Sydney arrival is too late.

So what do we do?

Swap it around. Run the morning service to Brisbane, and the night service to Casino. Running times are approximate, and this was based on a faster timetable involving a lot of stops being stripped out and patched over with connecting coaches, and some very tight turnarounds. It really needs another enhancement, but I think it gives you a good idea of what I had in mind.

SYD 0720 CSI 1825 BNE 2050
BNE 2120 CSI 2355 SYD 1055+1

SYD 2130 CSI 0835
CSI 0930 SYD 2035

Suddenly, this becomes a lot more manageable at both ends. I've solved the three problems I outlined above:

1. The Brisbane arrival and departure are now in the late evening, but at a tolerable hour. This is well after the height of PM peak, even during DST.
2. The Brisbane arrival and departure are now at a manageable time of day - nighttime, but not too late.
3. The Sydney arrival and departure are at reasonable times of day. The morning departure is little different to the current Casino service, and the arrival is in the late morning.

There was definitely a better way to have gone about this business.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Positive :

Sydney - Canberra reverts to three trains every day and almost at the same times daily as well.   If they can do this now why could they not have done so all along?

All southern services rerouted via East Hills which has far more capacity and much less potential for delay.  


Slightly more even spread of services on the north coast.

No loss of services anywhere though a few station stops are altered.

Clear and easy to see T and C icons for "Train" and "Coach" with a taxi icon used in those few places where it is needed.  Easier to see which form of transport is offered.

Negative :

Loss of the Strathfield stop on southern services which was often well used but, by that very fact, caused extended station dwell time there and delays.  Connections available via Central taking a little more time; some connections might now be better made via Campbelltown.

Brisbane service serves that city at extremely unsocial hours which may make it less attractive.  QR said to be pressing for the peak-time pathway to be released for their services and there is no real alternative as extending one of the other trains through upsets all the rolling stock rosters.  If the train ran 2 hours later to avoid the peak the return to Sydney would be very late at night and perhaps upset the maintenance roster at Meeks Road which has always been tight.

Northbound Kyogle stop becomes even more useless in the early morning.

It will no longer be possible to photograph scheduled passenger trains in daylight on the standard gauge in Queensland including at the Border Loop vantage point.

All services between common points are not shown together.  For example it is necessary to consult multiple timetables to see all services offered west of Lithgow towards Orange and the Bathurst train is not shown at all in "country" timetables implying it no longer runs.  It does - but one needs to consult the "City" Blue Mountains timetable to find it.

* A "New timetable" doesn't have to be "all change".  It can even be a reissue of the previous one with no change at all bar the date on the cover.  If that's fairly recent it tends to give confidence to the user that it is still current.   There are often a few and usually relatively minor changes when timetables are reissued.  On this occasion there are a few more significant alterations.  Time will tell if they are for the best.
  sashmo Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane Qld
Here's a head-scratcher ...

The Sydney-Brisbane XPT (Service 031) no longer stops at Nambucca Heads. But there's a connecting coach service to/from Nambucca Heads at Macksville, just for that service. Does anyone have any idea why this might be the case?

I'd love to be a passenger arriving at Roma Street at 3:53am in the morning in summer, waiting two hours with the vagrants and methadone clinic clients for the first connecting bus or train home. I bet Yellow Cabs and Black & White Cabs are rubbing their hands with glee.

Good to see that Canberra goes back to 3 services a day every day. Apart from that I haven't found much joy in these new regional timetables.
RegionalReverie
Might have to do with NT34, and the need to cross it.

Sashmo
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
All services between common points are not shown together.  For example it is necessary to consult multiple timetables to see all services offered west of Lithgow towards Orange and the Bathurst train is not shown at all in "country" timetables implying it no longer runs.  It does - but one needs to consult the "City" Blue Mountains timetable to find it.
Gwiwer
That's a presentation issue (rather than a change-in-the-times-that-the-trains-run issue) and at the moment, things haven't really changed in this area (perhaps they should/will) - the Bathurst train is not in the existing CountryLink timetables either.  

In a few days time the tool provided to do this all-services type of check will start to cover the period after the timetable change.
  sashmo Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane Qld
Watson374
At first glance it does look simple and easy until you look at the freight timetable, Ranged from 5.30pm to 10.30pm most days you have a series of freighters that depart ACR for destinations south, and you have several freighters arriving from the south that have to contend with the Freight Curfew that the Xpt service does not have to. Crossings can be interesting on the North Coast when Railcorp/whayever it wishes to name itself or other issues have delayed north bound freighters and ARTC have to pull rabbits outof the hat to make it all work, and it is my understanding that these freighters are part of the reason why extended the NT33 service to Brisbane was not carried out.

Sashmo
  boromisa Junior Train Controller

You end up with a horrible time for the return service to get back into Sydney though.  Operationally I wonder whether such a late arrival is difficult.

Swapping the Casino and Brisbane services (approximately) would seem reasonable.
donttellmywife

Why do you need to turn it straight back? Wait until 16.00 and then run return service. Whilst this would be close to afternoon peak I am not sure how long does it take the XPT to get out the Brisbane commuter area.

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