New Timetables For Regional Nsw

 
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Why do you need to turn it straight back? Wait until 16.00 and then run return service. Whilst this would be close to afternoon peak I am not sure how long does it take the XPT to get out the Brisbane commuter area.
boromisa

You can probably say 20 minutes.  The peak service and loading is well and truly under way by 16.20.

The reason a set isn't left parked up all day at Brisbane (or indeed anywhere else) is simply that there isn't enough rolling stock available to provide the service if that were to occur.

You would either have to find another set which doesn't exist or cancel one of the existing north coast workings altogether.

XPT diagrams stretch the fleet pretty thinly over the ground.  That's one reason why a delayed Melbourne is all too often turned back from Albury.  If it doesn't get back to Sydney more or less on time it stuffs the roster for the next working as well.

If there were more rolling stock I'd go along with those who suggest using an Xploder to Dubbo but then the XPT set released is a short formation and may be unsuited to use elsewhere.

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  boromisa Junior Train Controller

You can probably say 20 minutes.  The peak service and loading is well and truly under way by 16.20.

The reason a set isn't left parked up all day at Brisbane (or indeed anywhere else) is simply that there isn't enough rolling stock available to provide the service if that were to occur.

You would either have to find another set which doesn't exist or cancel one of the existing north coast workings altogether.

XPT diagrams stretch the fleet pretty thinly over the ground.  That's one reason why a delayed Melbourne is all too often turned back from Albury.  If it doesn't get back to Sydney more or less on time it stuffs the roster for the next working as well.

If there were more rolling stock I'd go along with those who suggest using an Xploder to Dubbo but then the XPT set released is a short formation and may be unsuited to use elsewhere.
Gwiwer
I am not privy to XPT diagrams but Casino XPT leaves at 07.11 and Grafton 10ish... should not there be sufficient time to turn around and run one of those? Provided BRI-SYD arrives by 05am or something like that? You surely do not have enough time to make it for return back to Brisbane even with the current timetable.

Likewise this situation cannot continue for ever - they will have to either buy new stock soon or get rid of the regional rail altogether.
  XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
This is the current XPT diagram:
The Dubbo set is captive and operates a daily return service. The other seven sets rotate on a seven day cycle as follows:
  • Day 1 - HT22 Meeks Road to Sydney, forms ST23 (8622) Sydney to Melbourne day train. Forms (8621) Melbourne to Sydney overnight train.
  • Day 2 - ST22 arrives in Sydney, forms HT23 to Meeks Road. Serviced. Forms HT34 to Sydney. Forms NT35 Sydney to Grafton day train. Stables.
  • Day 3 - NT36 Grafton to Sydney day train. Forms HT37 to Meeks Road. Serviced. Forms HT20 to Sydney. Forms ST21 (8612) to Melbourne overnight train.
  • Day 4 - ST21 (8612) arrives in Melbourne. Forms ST24 (8611) to Sydney day train. Forms HT25 to Meeks Road. Stables.
  • Day 5 - HT32 Meeks Road to Sydney. Forms NT33 Sydney to Casino day train. Forms NT34 Casino to Sydney overnight train.
  • Day 6 - NT34 arrives in Sydney, forms HT35 to Meeks Road. Serviced. Forms HT30 to Sydney. Forms NT31 Sydney to Brisbane overnight train.
  • Day 7 - NT31 arrives in Brisbane. Forms NT32 Brisbane to Sydney day train. Forms HT33 to Meeks Road. Stables.
Cycle Repeats.


From Wikipedia of all places. As you can see there's barely a moment's downtime so, as Gwiwer notes, if a down Melbourne is delayed significantly on Day 1 it has to either turn back at Albury to recover, or get back to Sydney late and cause run-on disruption and delay with the down Grafton on Day 2, and that in turn disrupts the up Grafton on Day 3. There just isn't the rolling stock available to do everything properly.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Why can't it get in before 0645 and then depart at 0900.   I think with the additionaal crossing loops and curve easing on the North Coast route someone should seriously review the running times for the XPT and revise the schedule
  sashmo Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane Qld
Why can't it get in before 0645 and then depart at 0900.   I think with the additionaal crossing loops and curve easing on the North Coast route someone should seriously review the running times for the XPT and revise the schedule
Trainplanner
Trainplanner
Curve easing never got s far as it was planned on the North Coast due to the botched resleepering of the Main South and subsequent repairs and adjustments. Holding it till 9am would have it arriving some time after 11pm in Sydney and then any subsequent delays would make the arrival even uglier.

Sashmo
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
The Brisbane XPT has been an overnight run going north.  Now it will arrive in the middle of the night in summer and leave passengers looking for taxis or a lift.  The trip time means that to get it within the span of a very long day it has to leave early in order to arrive Sydney at a half-reasonable time.  The issue is that it will now leave unreasonably early.  Even if a pathway were available at 9.00am which may be doubtful (there's a lot of peak traffic still about then and post-peak empty car movements, not to mention freight which might have been waiting its turn) then arrival in Sydney is going to be too late for some hotel check-ins, too late for some onward rail connections and very late in the day for any sort of purpose.  The best slot for a daytime southbound is the one it has now and is about to lose.
  Spletsie Chief Commissioner

I have caught the Brisbane-Sydney XPT several times in recent years, but would be less inclined to travel on a train departing at that time.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
The best slot for a daytime southbound is the one it has now and is about to lose.
"Gwiwer"
It is the best slot from a poor selection as the arrival in Sydney is still fairly late and does not offer any onward connections that do not require a stopover.

I stand by my belief that if the southbound service was the overnight sector, the timetabling would be far more palatable, and the onward connections likely superior.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I can agree to that but it would require an additional XPT set.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I can agree to that but it would require an additional XPT set.
"Gwiwer"
If you rearrange the entire XPT workings, you can recover enough sets, but I shan't go into the deep armchair tonight.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

I can agree to that but it would require an additional XPT set.
Gwiwer
The NSW Dictatorship um I mean government DON'T want to buy another country train. The current government/s want the XPT & Xplorers to fail, as an excuse to close down the entire NSW country passenger trains and replace them with coaches and/or in Greiners' words a while replaced with small aircraft.

That release by the Qld government seems to be propaganda to me. It is only one service a day in each direction. Of course if they had the foresight to build the standard gauge beside the narrow gauge track, instead of being a dual gauge track, . . .
  Black Hoppers Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
[quote="Newcastle Express"]Neither the NSW or Qld governments DON'T want to buy another country train. The current governments [b]want[/b] the XPT & Xplorers to fail, as an excuse to close down the entire NSW what was the CountryLink trains.



So what is your source for this then and what does the QLD gov have to do with the XPT or Explorers??

Stick to the newcastle thread unless your going to talk sense in other threads and not ill informed hysteria.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

First off, I actually changed it, but due to some issues, it was slow to load a few times.

Secondly Black Hoppers, their is some things regarding the Newcastle Rail Line that I haven't discussed.

Their have already been certain information that suggest getting rid of the NSW country train services, and I won't go any further about that.

Okay then, I will change that to I don't believe the NSW government like running the XPTs & Xplorers, but I believe they are at the moment, they have no choice to run them.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
The New South Wales state government is in a situation where it would be politically unacceptable to eliminate the grossly under-performing regional rail services due to the domineering influence of country whingers.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Black Hoppers, see: http://locoexpress.com.au/cutting-our-country-rail-services.

from Infrastructure NSW itself here: http://www.infrastructure.nsw.gov.au/media/16991/sis_report_section10.0_print.pdf

Page 7 under 10.3.2
Over the next 10 years, the XPT fleet used on  long distance rail services will approach the end of its economic life. A decision will need to be taken on whether the substantial investment required for new rolling stock is justified given very low regional rail patronage, or whether alternative approaches should be a priority.

Alternatives could include greater use of coach services or service sharing on some routes with Great Southern Railway, a private sector operator of interstate passenger trains. . .

The very limited role rail plays in regional transport leads Infrastructure NSW to conclude that the case for investment to reopen historic railways lines to passenger traffic will need careful assessment on a case by case basis and is unlikely to be viable in most cases.
I-NSW
  sashmo Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane Qld
The NSW Dictatorship um I mean government DON'T want to buy another country train. The current government/s want the XPT & Xplorers to fail, as an excuse to close down the entire NSW country passenger trains and replace them with coaches and/or in Greiners' words a while replaced with small aircraft.

That release by the Qld government seems to be propaganda to me. It is only one service a day in each direction. Of course if they had the foresight to build the standard gauge beside the narrow gauge track, instead of being a dual gauge track, . . .
Newcastle Express
Just a little Correction, They did. The Dual Gauge line that currently exists was once the dedicated Standard Gauge line, the Standard Gauge section ran from South Brisbane to Salisbury. With only one dedicated SG train a day it was opted to dual guage it to increase capacity. So from South Brisbane to Salisbury you have three lines two dedicated NG and one DG line.

Sashmo
  boromisa Junior Train Controller

I think a lot will depend on the outcome of the next election. If Libs loose some seats in Sydney they will become more dependent on Nats, so in that scenario there might be a change for better.

If however the situation remains unchanged I think it is reasonably expected that they will either significantly reduce services or get rid of them altogether.

I remeber that as a part of the master transport plan they were to develop Country Passenger Rail Strategy which is yet to occur.
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
The XPT isnt the only SG train that uses the DG line.
SG freight trains to Fishermans Island from Acacia ridge also use the line,so finding more SG train paths
without impacting on NG gold coast trains is no easy matter.
Its completely unviable to build another dedicated SG line because of the lack of space.
What QR have done is the best way to utilize the available infrastructure in the most cost effective way.
  brissim Chief Train Controller

Certainly the earlier arrival and departure time for the Brisbane XPT is a shocker. Even more so over the summer months with the service running on NSW Daylight Saving time.

However one positive I can perhaps see (hopefully) is that the earlier path for the XPT might push some of the overnight northbound freight services into daylight hours for us train chasers. Time will tell what the knock-on effect on freights will be.

Tony
  boromisa Junior Train Controller

yeah it's all about freight!
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Maybe they should just terminate the Brisbane XPT at Acacia Ridge
  MrPC Station Master

Location: Canberra
The new Brisbane XPT times would be poor but almost acceptable if they changed the timetable so that the up service (BNE-SYD) runs an hour later than otherwise timetabled during DST.

Of course for many of those hot summer months it probably runs an hour later anyway due to heat related speed restrictions, so why not formalise it?

If the change in the timetable is entirely due to QR wanting to run more services on the DG track around South Brisbane during their morning peak, then surely QR's concern is the same all year round (EST), and it doesn't require the SG service to run an hour earlier during NSW DST.  The 1hr earlier during DST thing is a problem that is entirely of the NSW Government's making, both in forcing us to change our clocks twice a year, and in their unwillingness to challenge themselves when scheduling their services to ensure that they are useful to passengers before releasing the timetables for public consumption.
Also, if the 1hr break in Brisbane is for a meal break for the driver, and his shift becomes too long during DST months as a result of making it a 2hr break, then make the train sit in Casino (or wherever the driver change occurs) for an extra hour on the down service too.  It probably won't sit there for that long if heat delays have occurred.

Should also I point out that DST was introduced during WW1 as a means of energy conservation.  Making daylight end an hour longer meant that during Summer you used less electricity for lighting.  However, back then, Air Conditioning didn't exist.  Nowadays the combination of DST and individual air con units in peoples homes means that people expect to be home during an hour of warm summer weather, and they are more inclined to run their air conditioning at home to make themselves comfortable during the evening, which actually increases electricity consumption.  Air Con has therefore made DST counterproductive and a discussion about its abolition should have eventuated some years ago.  Its abolition would make this particular problem disappear, as well as quite a few others.
  sashmo Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane Qld
MD
SG freighters to Fishermans Island do not run anymore and have not for some time, When ICE radios were tested NR30 the test unit had to wait for and keep pace with a QR suburban set which tripped the triggers for the Level crossings along the section to Fishermans Island due to the circuits not responding through lack of use. I forgot to add the AK Cars run through three return runs a year and the odd shunt train to Yeerongpilly at the rail welding and for shunting steel into a nearby industry, and the odd heritage run but on the whole the Xpt is the main runner. It is easy to over look them as they are either sporadic or as required.

Sashmo
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
The new Brisbane XPT times would be poor but almost acceptable if they changed the timetable so that the up service (BNE-SYD) runs an hour later than otherwise timetabled during DST.

Of course for many of those hot summer months it probably runs an hour later anyway due to heat related speed restrictions, so why not formalise it?

If the change in the timetable is entirely due to QR wanting to run more services on the DG track around South Brisbane during their morning peak, then surely QR's concern is the same all year round (EST), and it doesn't require the SG service to run an hour earlier during NSW DST.  The 1hr earlier during DST thing is a problem that is entirely of the NSW Government's making, both in forcing us to change our clocks twice a year, and in their unwillingness to challenge themselves when scheduling their services to ensure that they are useful to passengers before releasing the timetables for public consumption.
Also, if the 1hr break in Brisbane is for a meal break for the driver, and his shift becomes too long during DST months as a result of making it a 2hr break, then make the train sit in Casino (or wherever the driver change occurs) for an extra hour on the down service too.  It probably won't sit there for that long if heat delays have occurred.

Should also I point out that DST was introduced during WW1 as a means of energy conservation...
MrPC
You are not going to rearrange the time zone of the two most populous states in Australia (plus some less populous ones) for the sake of timetabling convenience of 170 regional rail users per day on a very marginal service, regardless of your attitude towards daylight saving.

Fundamentally, the main reason the train runs is to connect regional NSW to Sydney (and vice versa).  The connection to Brisbane is an afterthought - while it does improve connectivity for some communities in the far north of NSW I also suspect the reason the service continues to exist is historical inertia.  Delaying the service by an hour for its return journey means you end up with a small hit to set utilisation (you cannot delay the start of the northbound trip by an hour because of Sydney's afternoon peak, and scheduling delays of an hour within a service run is lunacy) and a relative shift in the majority NSW part of the timetable (requires a shift in connecting coach service time tables, more or less a second path to be reserved over a fairly extensive length of network, etc).
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
If SG freighters dont run to Fishermans Island, why was the line built?
It cost $75 million dollars.

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