Noarlunga Line Shutdown

 
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

The Infrastructure minister is directly answering questions himself on a facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NoarlungaLineCommuters2013/permalink/427580320683969/


Go there to direct any anger you have towards Tom Koutsantonis directly or any questions you have for him.

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I have already made contact with him through less public methods, but I might set up an FB presence to ask him some questions more publicly too.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
He's always been a bit of a dunce, but I suspect this is just him repeating what he was told.
"justapassenger"
You're probably right, so there's a departmental staffer that needs to go...

Chloe must be on leave, I cannot believe the delay announcement was not given to her to make!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Does anybody know what a "communter" is?
"justapassenger"
My guess would be a "communter" is a friend, or someone that hangs out with a "munter". - Until recently, I thought this was a term from NZ, but have subsequently found there is an English version of the word too.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

I find it hard to believe the Minister was that ill informed by DPTI to announce immanent opening and then a delay of two months within such a short period.
Such delays do not spring on you overnight unless the ship carrying a major item sinks. (If that happens people and disappointed but understanding.)

I read somewhere that the head of the rail transport department had left about 2 weeks ago and Rod Hook had taken over as "Commissioner of Railways".

This leaves two options.
Either Rod Hook undertook an investigation into the state of the works and only reported to the Minister yesterday.
Or there was a round table discussion over the reopening date and work completion in which the Minister was involved.

In either case Tom K should have known what was going on. Charitably I suspect he was not properly briefed by his department. He has two options. Sack the department heads or resign.

Let us see if the Member for Kingston has anything to say, federal money is involved.

I wonder if they held off announcing the delays until after the federal election?
The excuse about signalling is bunkum.

Nobody shut down Adelaide to Murray Bridge to install CTC. Nobody shut down Adelaide Metro when the Mickey Mouse* system replaced speed signalling. *Mickey Mouse, look at a signal head with left and right diverging feathers.

Don't even need razor blades in my Muesli this morning.

Ian
  lcb Beginner

Rod Hook has been Rail Cpmmissioner since the position was established several years ago.
His Deputy was Emma Thomas(also head of Passenger Transport Services).She left her positions a couple of weeks ago after having been in the job for just over 12 months.
Don't think she will be remembered fondly or as an outstanding contributor to her roles.
My understanding is that this has been a giant cover up by all concerned,as it has been known for quite some time that they were working to an impossible deadline!
  dawesybj Chief Train Controller

Location: Morphett Vale Sth Australia
i cant see the Seaford / Noarlunga Ctr line open until February next year after the Adelaide railway station and yard closed again to finish of the electrification works it would seem pointless to open it up again the have to close it again like they are doing on the Belair line at the moment to between ARS and Goodwood underpass as there is still a lot of work to do in that area. with the Wayville Station, all the wire ECT for the electrification over all the lines including ARTC and the underpass itself still going on with all the track works on the Tonsley line so i am likely to see it open before then.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I find it hard to believe the Minister was that ill informed by DPTI to announce immanent opening and then a delay of two months within such a short period.
Such delays do not spring on you overnight unless the ship carrying a major item sinks. (If that happens people and disappointed but understanding.)
"steam4ian"
On the 26th of August I posted this:
My source said 'opening before November looks sketchy'.
"Aaron"
I no longer remember when I was told, but it was a while before I posted it on RP. I always wait some period of time before I post info like that in case it came from some identifiable meeting/briefing, don't want to give away who's telling what they know...

Let us see if the Member for Kingston has anything to say, federal money is involved.
"steam4ian"
Ha! You'll hear nothing from her!

I wonder if they held off announcing the delays until after the federal election?
"steam4ian"
Still does not explain why Tom told us it's all okay in the morning, to lose two months in six hours...

The excuse about signalling is bunkum.
"steam4ian"
Well the signalling might be behind, but I remain unconvinced it's to do with integration of electric and diesel services... As you stated earlier, quite likely to be a contractor that just cannot keep to time.
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Still does not explain why Tom told us it's all okay in the morning, to lose two months in six hours...

Well the signalling might be behind, but I remain unconvinced it's to do with integration of electric and diesel services... As you stated earlier, quite likely to be a contractor that just cannot keep to time.
Aaron
The Minister clearly stated in the morning on 891 Breakfast that he was awaiting the review from DPTI of the Belair line problems (see my previous posting) before announcing a resumption date. In early afternoon he reported having received the report and announced the revised resumption target.

I wondered what was meant when I first heard the Minister's comments about the integration of diesel and electric services but then relected that it could be referring in lay terms to technical issues regarding the implementation of the new signalling system which involves both ERTMS Level 1 (ie cab signalling) and also conventional line signals and AWS. The Invensys project press release states.

...

The project spans 24 months and will see Invensys Rail making significant safety improvements and delivering increased capacity using the advanced technology of its FUTUR based ERTMS Level 1 solution and WESTRACE MKII based modular signalling.
Invensys press release
My assumption is that the new electric units are (or will be) ERTMS equipped and that the diesel units will (at least initially) retain AWS.  Rod Hook's comment reported on ABC radio this morning seem to confirm this.

There is also the need to immunise the signalling against traction current.  Although part of the Noarlunga line was fitted with ML resonant track circuits in the 1980s (or 1990s) resignalling, the decision seems to have been taken adopt wheel detection/axle counting on the entire  Noarlunga/Seaford line rather than install impedance bonding for traction current return across insulated joints.  This is evident in the recent installation of return bonds across insulated joints at pointwork and level crossings eg at Lonsdale and Seacliff.  

However this does not deny the signalling work delays that have been referred to in this forum in recent days.  Possibly the DPTI should prepare some publicity material on the resignalling similar to that which they produced in May on the electrification work.

Alex C
  DrJames Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
However this does not deny the signalling work delays that have been referred to in this forum in recent days.  Possibly the DPTI should prepare some publicity material on the resignalling similar to that which they produced in May on the electrification work.

Alex C
62430

I very much agree with this.  Obviously you don't want to blind people with science but a lamen's explanation of what is being done and why could go a fair way.  Tom K has been parrotting his well practiced "we need to ensure the public is safe" line, but that just comes off as sounding like a parent saying "it's for your own good".
  Halo Chief Train Controller

Will the Gawler passengers even humor the thought of having their line done if its going to be closed for 12 months to get it done? I doubt it!!

This delay is all based on electrification now, and new signaling system, both that need to be done on the gawler line, presuming similar delays.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Will the Gawler passengers even humor the thought of having their line done if its going to be closed for 12 months to get it done? I doubt it!!

This delay is all based on electrification now, and new signaling system, both that need to be done on the gawler line, presuming similar delays.
Halo
Dont forget the shutdown to do the underpass in the parklands either at Torrens Junction, sure there is plenty of room to do a deviation around it but will they though.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Got a beautiful, new, canned response from DPTI today for you Justapax! Will post it up when I get back to my email. It suggests no trains on the Noarlunga Line til December 2013!
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Got a beautiful, new, canned response from DPTI today for you Justapax! Will post it up when I get back to my email. It suggests no trains on the Noarlunga Line til December 2013!
Aaron

I think they probably have a bit of paper near their computer at their work desk and they have selected responses to say depending on the email they receive.

I find it very unlikely the signalling works will go into December I think they are just telling us the worst case scenario so we dont get our hopes up this time its very likely IMO services would resume in mid October to mid November. If the signalling contractors get penalized for this I wouldn't be surprised if koutsantonis uses that money to fund the free fares for the Noarlunga buses (That will give the signalling crew motivation to hurry the hell up)
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Milko, you are an optimist.

Note the slow haphazard electrification progress. from June to September they have completed 6 km, still 16 to go.

As for the re-signalling, the chances of successfully claiming liquidated damages will be minimal. There will be too many design omissions, late responses and correction notices which will allow the Contractor to at least claim matching extensions of time. Note how late the work started on the Belair line.

Electrification gantries being installed at Wayville today.

Ian
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I think they probably have a bit of paper near their computer at their work desk and they have selected responses to say depending on the email they receive.
"Milkomeda"
More likely just a drop down menu in the email system with no paper required, even Gmail has the facility to set up canned responses which take just three clicks to select, load and send. It was useful when I worked at a third party Apple service agent and the majority of email enquiries needed just the instructions on how to reset an iPod.

I find it very unlikely the signalling works will go into December ...
"Milkomeda"
Maybe the whole network closure for January might be brought forward to knock it over at the same time rather than opening to Noarlunga or Seaford for just a few weeks before closing again.

Either way, it's probably going to be late 2014 or some time in 2015 before there is a permanent timetable for Seaford/Tonsley with a full electric service and for the other lines with the cascaded 3000/3100 fleet. So much for the original schedule posted last year which promised reopening with electric trains to Seaford!
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Steelwork for station canopy at Wayville was being erected yesterday.







Alex C
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
The stupid thing with that roof design is that most of the weather (meaning rain) blows in from the west, and of course the sun sets in the west also.  So when it rains the western side of the platform is exposed to rain coming in on the wind, and secondly on a hot summers day the platforms will also be exposed to more direct sunlight, at the hottest part of the day, which means overall hotter temperatures (being in the sun and associated radient heat) than if it was sheltered.

The rake of the roof should have been in the opposite direction, sloping upwards from the western side.  My guess is that was deemed as unfeasible due to the freight line but surely the designers could have come up with a better approach?  I notice there looks to be a sub-canopy underneath the main roof beams however I can't see them as providing any significant shelter other than from bird droppings Laughing

Great pics nonetheless Alex.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

There is no roof over the whole station, it is shown as open over the tracks on all the concept images and plans shown to date. Remember that there will be a fair few trains stopping there and for the indefinite future all of them will be diesel powered including all of those using the western platform to/from Belair, so retro-fitting a roof over the Seaford tracks won't be an option for quite a long time to come.

The plans which were online for a short time earlier this year showed there being some seats in the fully covered overpass which would provide complete rain protection. I don't see shade being an issue, as well as the platform canopies and the overpass the buildings to the west provide quite long shadows in the late afternoon, which could be boosted with appropriate planting of screening trees along the edge of the corridor.

I don't think those lower bits are for a 'sub-canopy' but rather for installation of lighting, information screens and so on.

You are right that a difference approach with two island platforms like Goodwood could have allowed something different for shelter, but that would have come at the expense of good visibility for safety and good management for passenger flow after major events. It also might have been much harder or even impossible to fit in the space available, and an extra lift would definitely have been required where the current eastern side platform has enough space for ramps instead.

I agree that it's a compromised design, but I'm not sure it would have been possible to do anything at all in that area without making compromises.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Yoyoman

You many not be on here as often as some, but you certainly have picked up the cynicism, "I can't see them as providing any significant shelter other than from bird droppings"

Laughinghttp://www.railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_lol.gifLaughing
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
In it's defence it will still provide significantly more shelter than the shelter at say Marino etc, once they removed the old asbestos(?) shelter, so being more realistic it's luxury in comparison Smile

I'm all for 'tarting things up' but not at the expense of functionality.  I can understand (and agree) with why the platforms are in their current formation/locations just thought the roof design was an interesting choice but having said that, as justapassenger points out, the roof is not be enclosed anyway due to the Belair diesel services so it's probably a moot point.

Maybe I'm just tired today (and lately steam4ian) Sad  Carry on Laughing
  Tallboy-Lemond Station Master

Belair diesels are on the Western side and there is no roof directly over it, but there will be a complete roof over the seaford track.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Yoyoman: Although the roof looks good with (what appears to be) a lot of area covered it also might be too high.  The new North Melbourne station suffers from the same problems you were discussing; when it's blowing a gale and raining you get wet regardless of where you stand because the shelters are simply too high... it looks really good but it's actually not that functional.
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Yoyoman: Although the roof looks good with (what appears to be) a lot of area covered it also might be too high.  The new North Melbourne station suffers from the same problems you were discussing; when it's blowing a gale and raining you get wet regardless of where you stand because the shelters are simply too high... it looks really good but it's actually not that functional.
don_dunstan

These types of roofs on the Noarlunga Line are being used for the overhead wiring. They bolt some cantilever arms on the roof of the station since there is enough height clearance. They probably took this into consideration when construction of the Wayville station began
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Yoyoman: Although the roof looks good with (what appears to be) a lot of area covered it also might be too high.  The new North Melbourne station suffers from the same problems you were discussing; when it's blowing a gale and raining you get wet regardless of where you stand because the shelters are simply too high... it looks really good but it's actually not that functional.
don_dunstan
To add to that they don't cover the whole platform.

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