October 2013 Timetable

 
  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network
The new timetables are the same size as the ferry and bus timetables


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Gallery: http://www.flickr.com/photos/abesty92/sets/72157635822851586/

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  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network
I now have clearer photos of the timetables and a scan of all covers as well as the inside map.

A few things to note:
The network map is now located at the back of the booklet, as a foldout of the back cover:


The line diagram inside the front cover now has the end-station from Central/City Circle at the top. In the previous timetables, some had the end-station at the top, others had Central/City Circle.

Covers of all timetables:


Scans of covers + diagrams, information pages and back covers for Sydney Trains & NSW Trainlink timetables: http://www.flickr.com/photos/abesty92/sets/72157635829567796/
  8041 Junior Train Controller

What happened to the consultation period?
I presume once timetables are printed there will be no changes.
I predict it will last a fortnight.
  clrks Locomotive Fireman

The new network map is a lot worse and more unclear than it used to be. Seems to want to simplify the lines by merging several of them, yet at the same time, the names of the existing lines are still there.

That's fine, except it seems to send all the wrong signals, because the merged train lines are still mostly distinct.

It seems to imply that those stations Strathfield to Macdonaldtown have a direct single train via Granville to Campbelltown, which is certainly not the case for most of these stations most of the time. Same thing for the North Shore/Western/Northern Lines. It implies that you can catch a single train from Richmond to Macquarie University, which I don't think regularly happens.

It's also stylistically horrid. The East Hills Line and Bankstown Lines used to be clean horizontal lines for most of their length way, making it really easy to read. Now they keep turning and twisting, with their station names in a whole jumble of different orientations. The positioning of the station names "Sydenham", "Flemington", and "Olympic Park" all intersect with train lines. There's also no more indication of peak hour only routes (e.g. East Hills Line via Sydenham) or intercity routes, although the intercity omission is understandable given how it's no longer part of Sydney Trains.
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
From the Timetable Roadshow for staff the reason the gave for the new appearance on the maps, supposedly passenger feedback was that the maps look crowded with all the symbols etc, and passengers needing those services will plan that all beforehand.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
The designs aren't great, but they were specified by the government. Merged lines would have worked if the individual services had numbers like in New York.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
The new network map is a lot worse and more unclear than it used to be. Seems to want to simplify the lines by merging several of them, yet at the same time, the names of the existing lines are still there.

That's fine, except it seems to send all the wrong signals, because the merged train lines are still mostly distinct.

It seems to imply that those stations Strathfield to Macdonaldtown have a direct single train via Granville to Campbelltown, which is certainly not the case for most of these stations most of the time. Same thing for the North Shore/Western/Northern Lines. It implies that you can catch a single train from Richmond to Macquarie University, which I don't think regularly happens.

It's also stylistically horrid. The East Hills Line and Bankstown Lines used to be clean horizontal lines for most of their length way, making it really easy to read. Now they keep turning and twisting, with their station names in a whole jumble of different orientations. The positioning of the station names "Sydenham", "Flemington", and "Olympic Park" all intersect with train lines. There's also no more indication of peak hour only routes (e.g. East Hills Line via Sydenham) or intercity routes, although the intercity omission is understandable given how it's no longer part of Sydney Trains.
I have to agree with you. the map looks ulgy
things I hate
1. Oly park is no longer a balloon
2. East hills and Banko are no longer straight
3. no more red, purple and light blue (especially red)
4. design of map took a backward step in showing the world that Sydneytrains is a world class rail system
5. my 7 year old neighbour could have drawn it
6. no seperation of services. eg northern line trains dont run to Paramatta so why put them as a single line

in my opinion. this is a good map
http://www.netzplan.com.au/pdf/netzplan_schematic_sydney.pdf
its a pdf file so sorry guys

Netzpan design really good maps and they should have done this one too (evolution of previous design they did which i believe is the one they are phasing out)

now that i think about it (2 minutes into writing this post), i think they tried to implement a map based on the 5 sectors/clearways that they got from the clearways project with the exception of cumberland line which they just slotted in
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
1. Oly park is no longer a balloon
"fixitguy"
So? The fact it's a balloon loop means zip to the passengers.
2. East hills and Banko are no longer straight
"fixitguy"
I like the bent East Hills. It's more geographically accurate, and it actually looks good. The wavy Bankstown line isn't ideal, but it at least helps destroy the ideas in some armchair operators that the Bankstown line is a corridor ripe for expresses to Liverpool.
3. no more red, purple and light blue (especially red)
"fixitguy"
Agreed on the red, but not the purple and light blue. That said, though, I would prefer if the Bankstown went back to its purple SRA colour, leaving orange for some other use. Like, I dunno, corporate branding.
4. design of map took a backward step in showing the world that Sydneytrains is a world class rail system
"fixitguy"
It's a simplification. A bad one, but it is simpler.
5. my 7 year old neighbour could have drawn it
"fixitguy"
I don't know why you're bringing your 7-year-old neighbour into this, but okay.
6. no seperation of services. eg northern line trains dont run to Paramatta so why put them as a single line
"fixitguy"
In the new timetable, they do. God knows why, but they do.

in my opinion. this is a good map
http://www.netzplan.com.au/pdf/netzplan_schematic_sydney.pdf
its a pdf file so sorry guys
"fixitguy"
...that's the same thing we've had for years.

now that i think about it (2 minutes into writing this post), i think they tried to implement a map based on the 5 sectors/clearways that they got from the clearways project with the exception of cumberland line which they just slotted in
"fixitguy"
Maybe. Frankly, the better approach would have been to label the lines with route numbers, and group them by trunk line, as per the New York City Subway.

You know what, I'm not getting any study done tonight. Challenge accepted!
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
@ watson

since i'm not bothered to do what you just did in terms of replying to my posts cos i'm lazy. i'll reply like this

1. I like the oly park loop. it just looks cool in my opinion and has been a part of me for the better part of my life
2. Now that you say the bent East Hills does look alright but the bent Banko is stupid and why would armchair operators use it as an express anyway to Liverpool (unless your those people who wrote those HSR report. they used the Banko corridor to get out of sydney IIRC)
3. Bankstown was purple? beats orange which should only be Sydneytrains corporate colour
4. Simplification is good but this isnt
5. I'm just saying that this map is very bad (in my opinion)
6. What!! they do?
7. Excatly.why change someting good
8. NYC subway has a good map for such a complicated system. We should have adopted that. and good luck on your map making adventures
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
1. I like the oly park loop. it just looks cool in my opinion and has been a part of me for the better part of my life
"fixitguy"
So what, at the end of the day it shows a spur service that goes to Olympic Park. The loop was a cosmetic addition that was frankly superfluous.
2. Now that you say the bent East Hills does look alright but the bent Banko is stupid and why would armchair operators use it as an express anyway to Liverpool (unless your those people who wrote those HSR report. they used the Banko corridor to get out of sydney IIRC)
"fixitguy"
The wavy Banko is sub-optimal, but I can't really complain about it.
3. Bankstown was purple? beats orange which should only be Sydneytrains corporate colour
"fixitguy"
Ya, the South/Airport & East Hills was green and the Bankstown/Inner West was purple.
4. Simplification is good but this isnt
"fixitguy"
Welcome on board Sydney Trains.
5. I'm just saying that this map is very bad (in my opinion)
"fixitguy"
I figured, I just got tilted off vertical about your neighbour.
6. What!! they do?
"fixitguy"
Ya, go read it properly.
7. Excatly.why change someting good
"fixitguy"
I personally think that one isn't great.
8. NYC subway has a good map for such a complicated system. We should have adopted that. and good luck on your map making adventures
"fixitguy"
It works. Essentially, there are too many service patterns to describe in pure London Underground-style lines.
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
For the services that are shown to be able depart ahead of the scheduled time in the new timetable, these services will not appear on the platform screens but will be visible to staff.
  diasam Beginner
  clrks Locomotive Fireman

Does anyone know why the timetable has markings for "e" - Service may depart earlier than the time shown?
  bjwh86 Chief Train Controller

^^ you answered your own question
  Calgully Deputy Commissioner

Location:
^^ you answered your own question
bjwh86

Well no.  That is WHAT it means, but his question was WHY?

Why bother putting that in the timetable?  Isn't it unnecessary because those stops are pick up only therefore nobody is going to miss their train if it departs early - and if you're meeting an arrival then again the departure time has no consequence.
  Piston Train Controller

Does anyone know why the timetable has markings for "e" - Service may depart earlier than the time shown?
clrks
Up trains arriving at Strathfield from the north have been known to sit there for up to four minutes waiting for the timetable to catch up.

If there is a clear path towards Central (the last stop) then after the passengers (oops sorry customers) have got off (alighted) then there shouldn't be any reason why it shouldn't depart.

Strathfield has plenty of services heading towards the city in the morning peak.
  T88 Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
and the big winner is Granville. Poor shop keeper on 3&4 will go broke!
  darcyj Chief Train Controller

The new network map is a lot worse and more unclear than it used to be. Seems to want to simplify the lines by merging several of them, yet at the same time, the names of the existing lines are still there.

That's fine, except it seems to send all the wrong signals, because the merged train lines are still mostly distinct.

It seems to imply that those stations Strathfield to Macdonaldtown have a direct single train via Granville to Campbelltown, which is certainly not the case for most of these stations most of the time. Same thing for the North Shore/Western/Northern Lines. It implies that you can catch a single train from Richmond to Macquarie University, which I don't think regularly happens.

It's also stylistically horrid. The East Hills Line and Bankstown Lines used to be clean horizontal lines for most of their length way, making it really easy to read. Now they keep turning and twisting, with their station names in a whole jumble of different orientations. The positioning of the station names "Sydenham", "Flemington", and "Olympic Park" all intersect with train lines. There's also no more indication of peak hour only routes (e.g. East Hills Line via Sydenham) or intercity routes, although the intercity omission is understandable given how it's no longer part of Sydney Trains.
clrks

I think your complaints are, in some respects, those of a train enthusiast/insider.  Ordinary commuters are unlikely to plan their trip based on looking at the map and tracing the yellow line from Macquarie University to Richmond.  They will consult online services, apps and train departure information at stations.  I can't remember the first time I ever took a train trip on my own volition - sometime after 1983 - but I did some elementary research first and certainly by the time I was using trains regularly I would have assimilated the concepts of changing at certain stations to get to certain other stations.  (Disclosure:  I was lucky to grow up near Granville station and didn't have to put too much thought into the difference between north shore trains and city circle trains.)

Now that I have had a good look at the map, I see only three aspects which could have been done better.  The first is the ridiculous-looking spur line to Homebush.  The orange line should have been continued through the Inner West to end at Homebush with the same end-of-line station marking as other end-of-line stations.  Second is the Carlingford Line marking which has been drawn to pass by Granville which may - may - give the false impressions to two or three people that Granville is on that line.

Third is nothing to do with the map design, but it shows up on the map, and that is the enormous spread of trains which fall under the "T1" designation.  Whilst the yellow line markings on the map are unlikely to lead people astray, the mistaken idea that all trains between Chatswood and Strathfield are equivalent to each other might cause false steps.  I mean, how hard would it have been to use 99 numbers for train routes rather than just 7?  Then the route could have been given individual and meaningful numbers, in the same way that there are five different bus numbers that all share the same pathway from Circular Quay as far as Kingsford - the number tells the commuter where the bus is going after that.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Given that services are being cross-routed between the Northern/Western and the Shore/ECRL, the problem is the overlap. I guess you could get away with having the Shore/ECRL have one set of numbers, e.g. 1 for Hornsby via Gordon and 2 for Hornsby via Macquarie Uni, and then having more numbers for the Western/Northern, e.g. 3 for Epping via West Ryde, 4 for Penrith, 5 for Richmond and 6 for the local to Blacktown.

The rest of the network is much easier to sub-divide.
  Kurmudgeon Junior Train Controller

I've seen the new bus timetable for my area, and it shows connecting train services to/from the CBD as per the Oct 20 train timetable... but this bus timetable commences Oct 6, so the train times shown will be out by up to 20 minutes for two weeks.
  Black1050 Chief Train Controller

Location: Out of the Metrop
"Same thing for the North Shore/Western/Northern Lines. It implies that you can catch a single train from Richmond to Macquarie University, which I don't think regularly happens."

Actually, with the new timetable, this WILL regularly happen - multiple times per day. Plenty of the west services from Penrith and Richmond will be returning to Hornsby via Mac Park....

Re: the map, if you already know where the stations you utilise are, then the map shouldn't really matter. For newcomers to train travel or tourists, well best of luck.  To be honest those groups always struggled anyways. Still remember the German tourist (with thick German accent) who asked how to get to Wynyard... And was directed onto a Richmond train...  Vineyard was not what he expected...

The cynical side of me suspects the minister has decided the more things she changes, the more she can claim to have "achieved".  Starting with the millions shelled out for new logos, signs, uniforms etc. I still haven't seen how those have made trains more punctual or cleaner or graffiti free. So up there with reforms, expensive simplification of things will likely be deemed "successful achievements".  It's about what the department can spin rather than actual results delivered...
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
Going to be interesting how she can spin the blow out in delays from trying to pack more services in, minus the investment in infrastructure.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
So up there with reforms, expensive simplification of things will likely be deemed "successful achievements".  It's about what the department can spin rather than actual results delivered...
"Black1050"
Exactly. What really bugs me is the extreme focus on the commuter rail network that is very difficult to fix. So while it's a major political centrepiece, it's also in the too-hard basket. As such, it's a lot of hot air.

Meanwhile, the un-sexy buses can be shoved aside, never mind that the STA network needs redrawing, and that major bus reforms can actually deliver more result than orange logos...
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Going to be interesting how she can spin the blow out in delays from trying to pack more services in, minus the investment in infrastructure.
Blackadder
Much as I hate to say this, I think they've done a pretty good job with this new timetable.  And while they have "gone dark" in terms of the public consultation, I expect this is at least in part to retain the "purity" of it so to speak.  With consultation there would be a stop added here, a slight shift there to match the opening time of the chief of staff's preschool opening times, a special train for the Kings School cricket team etc etc.

I think the consistency of stopping patterns removes a lot of the anomalies (ie long gaps between some services) of the old timetable and thus should help to even out the variance in the city station dwell times and platform crowding.  The effect isn't going to be huge, but it should be enough to ensure they can reasonably max out the services through the city without spectacularly adverse consequences.

Most of the major benefits this new timetable delivers are from using the "new" Clearways infrastructure (at least).  

A lot of the "new" services are unnecessary and not solving any real problems (like higher frequencies on the BJ line, which maxes out at ~66% utilisation now) or more Bankstown line services where it seems the fudged the figures to show there was demand fore them.  A lot of these "new" services while a bit more than spin, are probably actually a bit worse: costing more to implement without delivering more PT benefit.
  Black1050 Chief Train Controller

Location: Out of the Metrop
Going to be interesting how she can spin the blow out in delays from trying to pack more services in, minus the investment in infrastructure.
Blackadder

Yes.  A lot of us are very keen to see how this works out...  Always interested to see how these quick fixes on the cheap turn out...

Yet to see one succeed...  The irony, being the things that can be fixed cheaply, they spend mega bucks on, yet the things that really need proper investment they skimp on...  Personally, I wouldn't feed them...


It's been entertaining watching how she tried to spin her answers to the Senate committee who grilled her...

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