Oh Fare evasion is up and patronage is down!

 
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
As I understand Myki your card should show a touch-off has occurred almost instantly.  If it is checked a few seconds after you touch off that action will show on the record.

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  route14 Chief Commissioner

The impossibility to pay the fare onboard or at a railway station is highly user-unfriendly.
  Calgully Deputy Commissioner

Location:
The impossibility to pay the fare onboard or at a railway station is highly user-unfriendly.
route14

You can pay at stations.

Do agree that inability to pay onboard is unfriendly.

I see that finally myki machines are due to be installed at Melbourne Airport.   Took a while that one didn't it?
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
You can top up at all stations if you already hold a Myki.  You can purchase a full-fare Myki either over the counter (where staffed) or at the machine at all stations but you cannot purchase a concession Myki at an unstaffed station.  Given that perhaps 60% of users are entitled to some sort of concession that seems to discriminate against the majority.

Blame the politicians ultimately.  But if the system was better specified in the first place it might not have been though necessary to strip it to its barest bones in order to get it to work at all.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
But if the system was better specified in the first place it might not have been though necessary to strip it to its barest bones in order to get it to work at all.
Gwiwer
Perhaps not just better specified, but a better developer as well.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Perhaps not just better specified, but a better developer as well.
railblogger
The lack of experience does seem to have been an issue.  The initial scope was extremely ambitious, probably too much so; I remember Peter Batchelor on the TV one night telling us how it was going to have all sorts of uses as 'virtual money' for vending machines and shops.
  Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren
I honestly don't know why the "developers" found it so difficult. I couldn't have designed the hardware, but I could have done a far better job with the software.

2-3 minutes for an eftpos topup? A computer from the 1970's should be capable of doing it quicker than that.
  Amraks Junior Train Controller

When I was in Melbourne I was told it was $3.50 for the whole day on the tram, no matter how many times u touch on.

Is this correct?
  XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
There is no mode-specific cost for travel in metropolitan Melbourne (ie you cannot buy only tram travel).

If you are travelling with myki, this is the most you will pay per day for unlimited travel on metropolitan trains, trams, and buses:
Weekdays:
Concession Zone 1 only: $3.50
Full Fare Zone 1 only: $7.00
Concession Zone 2 only: $2.42
Full Fare Zone 2 only: $4.84
Concession both zones: $5.92
Full Fare both zones: $11.84

Weekends:
Weekend Daily Cap: $3.50
(maximum fare for metro travel regardless of mode, zone, or fare type)
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
Another major issue is when topping up on buses. People seem horrified when told you can not top up using card on a bus, and by the 2nd run of the trip the till is almost always empty. Drivers have a $40 float, so ask for a $10 top up and hand over a $50 note and the till is empty. Many drivers do "exact top ups only" for this reason, try telling a student or pensioner the only way they can travel is by handing over a large note.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
There has quickly become an expectation among those with tap-and-go cards that they can use them anywhere.  That includes on buses.  It's not a new problem.  20 years ago I was a driver and found the occasional passenger insisting that they could swipe their card through "that gap" to pay.  "That gap" was where we lifted a flap to put the ticket roll in!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
There has quickly become an expectation among those with tap-and-go cards that they can use them anywhere.  That includes on buses.  It's not a new problem.  20 years ago I was a driver and found the occasional passenger insisting that they could swipe their card through "that gap" to pay.  "That gap" was where we lifted a flap to put the ticket roll in!
Gwiwer
I've told my bank not to give me a contact-less card; there's no need for it and (although I can't find the link now) I've heard that overseas there have been instances where people can stand next to you on public transport and use an electronic device to swipe and reproduce your details from your credit cards without you even knowing.

And call me a Luddite but I hate keeping these cards on me that keep tracking my locations and spending patterns.  For that reason I've been using cash a lot more lately.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I must admit I prefer doing business in cash where possible.  That includes almost all face-to-face transactions.  I don't feel there's any greater risk of theft or loss than with cards which as is well known can be skimmed, stolen, lost or according to some sources interfered with remotely as you suggest.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I must admit I prefer doing business in cash where possible.  That includes almost all face-to-face transactions.  I don't feel there's any greater risk of theft or loss than with cards which as is well known can be skimmed, stolen, lost or according to some sources interfered with remotely as you suggest.
Gwiwer
Here's one recent story about it in the UK Daily Mail.

Supposedly if you go over a certain dollar amount in any one day or more than five transactions your card is automatically stopped and/or you're forced to use your pin. But my solution is to just not have the damn thing in the first place; that way you can't be remotely pick-pocketed.

It's like internet banking; I was in my bank branch one day and they suggested to me 'oh you should try internet banking, it's much easier' to which my response was 'only if you promise to indemnify me one hundred percent against any thefts, regardless of who is actually at fault'.  That shut 'em up.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
It's like internet banking; I was in my bank branch one day and they suggested to me 'oh you should try internet banking, it's much easier' to which my response was 'only if you promise to indemnify me one hundred percent against any thefts, regardless of who is actually at fault'.  That shut 'em up.
don_dunstan
The four major banks do have a gaurantee against online theft and/or fraud, and will refund any money lost provided that you have taken reasonable steps to protect your details (e.g. you haven't put your login and password in a public place for everyone to see, etc).

Same if you pay over the credit card network - any fraudaulent transactions can be reversed.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I never pay for PT on my infrequent trips to Melbourne, when I was in Melbourne for a week or so earlier in the year I had a friend give me their MYKI thing. Try as I might I could never get it to work so in the end I just carried it around. I was asked once by a inspector about it so I handed him the card called the bluff and said 'I'm from SA and I can't make it work' neither could he, I'd never even tried it, but that's the nearest I've come to paying a fare in the east.
  mclaren2007 Assistant Commissioner

Location: recharging my myki
Went I went for the Grand Prix this year I was amazed at how easy it would be to just walk onto a station and board a train without even bothering to pay the fare. Its only until you get to the City Loop or Spencer Street/Flinders Street that you are screwed.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The four major banks do have a gaurantee against online theft and/or fraud, and will refund any money lost provided that you have taken reasonable steps to protect your details (e.g. you haven't put your login and password in a public place for everyone to see, etc).

Same if you pay over the credit card network - any fraudaulent transactions can be reversed.
AzN_dj
You have to read the fine print really about what constitutes 'reasonable steps'.

You could have the best anti-virus in place but really it's at the discretion of the bank as to whether they consider you've taken a 'reasonable step'.  My flatmate recently got a phising scam email - he uses internet banking - and for all intents and purposes it looked like the real thing - even the email address looked like it was actually from his bank (with slight differences).  He didn't fall for it but hey, it was frightening how convincing and real it looked.

And you just can't trust them to be reasonable about it.  A friend of mine had a large amount of money stolen from her savings account a few years ago and she eventually had to get a combination of a banking ombudsman and her own lawyer onto them before they relented and paid her money back.  It turned out that she was a victim of a skimming scam but her bank (a 'big four' bank) refused to even acknowledge there was a problem, telling her repeatedly she was a liar and she must have spent the money herself without remembering it.

Therefore you have to manage the risk yourself and say 'no' to the less secure products they offer like contact-less credit cards and internet banking, don't let your card out of your sight, and be really careful using your card on the internet full-stop.  The internet is a security nightmare regardless of any encryption or security measures you take... last year my E-bay/PayPal account got hacked from an IP address in China and I've got a twelve letter/number password!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Went I went for the Grand Prix this year I was amazed at how easy it would be to just walk onto a station and board a train without even bothering to pay the fare. Its only until you get to the City Loop or Spencer Street/Flinders Street that you are screwed.
mclaren2007
If you're a local you know exactly where to get on and off with minimal chance of detection.
  Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren
Went I went for the Grand Prix this year I was amazed at how easy it would be to just walk onto a station and board a train without even bothering to pay the fare. Its only until you get to the City Loop or Spencer Street/Flinders Street that you are screwed.
mclaren2007
Not at all. Simply walk closely behind someone and hold one of the gates open.
  simeyau Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sunbury, Victoria
I never pay for PT on my infrequent trips to Melbourne, when I was in Melbourne for a week or so earlier in the year I had a friend give me their MYKI thing. Try as I might I could never get it to work so in the end I just carried it around. I was asked once by a inspector about it so I handed him the card called the bluff and said 'I'm from SA and I can't make it work' neither could he, I'd never even tried it, but that's the nearest I've come to paying a fare in the east.
Aaron
That certainly doesn't make it right. Again it is a case of people thinking they shouldn't have to pay...you use the service so pay for it
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
I'm confused about using Myki on trams.  We are told to always touch on, but you don't need to touch off unless part of (or all of?) your journey was in zone 2.

Today I caught a tram in zone 1, and dutifully touched on when boarding.  On getting off, still in zone 1, I did not touch off, because I believed I didn't need to.  Some time later, I took another tram and again dutifully touched my card.  The display said "Touch off successful".  Fortunately I saw that, so waited a few seconds and touched the card again.  This time it said "Touch on successful".  Had I not noticed the first message, I would have been travelling with an invalid ticket, even though I believed I had done the right thing, and possibly would have had trouble explaining myself to an inspector.  (A different sounding beep for touch on and touch off would be helpful.)

Would it be fair to conclude that if you make multiple tram trips in zone 1 on the same day, you only need to touch on the first time, that the card remains "touched on" until it is put to a reader again?  So if you don't touch off on exit, as you are not required to do, then the card remains "touched on" for the next journey?  Is this why many people do not touch on when boarding a tram, or are they just fare evading?

This does not gell with taking a tram, then a train.  The tram will say "Touch on successful", then you get off at say Flinders Street, without touching off, go into the station, and put the card to a barrier.  It will always say "Touch on successful" and the barrier will open.  How does that work?

I'm no Einstein, but I believe I have average intelligence, and if I can't understand how Myki works then heavens help a lot of people.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
It's certainly confusing.

There is no need to touch off when alighting from a tram if the trip has only been in Zone 1.  Not everyone is aware of where the boundaries lie.  Visitors for example sometimes make the assumption that Zone 1 ends and Zone 2 commences as soon as one leaves the CBD grid.

The need to touch off was removed as it was found to be impractical for a large number of passengers to do so while all trying to exit a small number of doorways quickly.  The potential to significantly delay trams was realised before chaos ensued.  For example it is not unusual for perhaps 50 or more people to all board a tram at Collins and Spring then alight again a few moments later at Collins and Swanston.  It's hard enough to get them all to touch on in the minute or so they're aboard let alone touch off as well.

The system should recognise that your touch on was on a tram in Zone 1 and that when you next touch on you would therefore not be penalised.  The appropriate fare (2-hour, cap or whatever) would be applied based on your ongoing travel.  An AO scanning your card should also be able to see that the touch on was on a tram in Z1 and therefore know that no touch off was required.

However reality can differ from intent and there is nothing to stop you having alighted in Z2, failed to touch off then returned perhaps on foot to a Z1 location and re-entered the system with a new touch on.  That is a system weakness and also a failure by the user to do the right thing.  The system should not touch you off when you re-enter at a station, on a bus or tram having last alighted from a Z1 tram; it should recognise that as a new touch on which clearly didn't happen in this case.

Confusing - yes.  As you say if reasonable people can't always figure it out how on earth do infrequent users and others with little or no knowledge of that system do so?  That can be a failing of all smart card systems.  Myki isn't alone but is one of the less well structured and managed of such systems in my experience.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Went I went for the Grand Prix this year I was amazed at how easy it would be to just walk onto a station and board a train without even bothering to pay the fare. Its only until you get to the City Loop or Spencer Street/Flinders Street that you are screwed.
mclaren2007
....  or until an inspector gets on ....

As the saying goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch.  Neither is there a free public transport trip, unless advertised as such.  If you do not pay your fare, then as well as committing an offence, you are forcing the fares up for those who do pay, and you are denying the operator a source of funds to carry out maintenance or improvements.  Do you want the train you are freeloading on to be properly maintained and safe?  Do you want the driver to be adequately trained?  Do you want the signals and points to work properly, so that your (free??) trip will run as expected?
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
It's certainly confusing.

There is no need to touch off when alighting from a tram if the trip has only been in Zone 1.  Not everyone is aware of where the boundaries lie.  Visitors for example sometimes make the assumption that Zone 1 ends and Zone 2 commences as soon as one leaves the CBD grid.

The need to touch off was removed as it was found to be impractical for a large number of passengers to do so while all trying to exit a small number of doorways quickly.  The potential to significantly delay trams was realised before chaos ensued.  For example it is not unusual for perhaps 50 or more people to all board a tram at Collins and Spring then alight again a few moments later at Collins and Swanston.  It's hard enough to get them all to touch on in the minute or so they're aboard let alone touch off as well.

The system should recognise that your touch on was on a tram in Zone 1 and that when you next touch on you would therefore not be penalised.  The appropriate fare (2-hour, cap or whatever) would be applied based on your ongoing travel.  An AO scanning your card should also be able to see that the touch on was on a tram in Z1 and therefore know that no touch off was required.

However reality can differ from intent and there is nothing to stop you having alighted in Z2, failed to touch off then returned perhaps on foot to a Z1 location and re-entered the system with a new touch on.  That is a system weakness and also a failure by the user to do the right thing.  The system should not touch you off when you re-enter at a station, on a bus or tram having last alighted from a Z1 tram; it should recognise that as a new touch on which clearly didn't happen in this case.

Confusing - yes.  As you say if reasonable people can't always figure it out how on earth do infrequent users and others with little or no knowledge of that system do so?  That can be a failing of all smart card systems.  Myki isn't alone but is one of the less well structured and managed of such systems in my experience.
Gwiwer
Thanks for the detailed reply.  Just one point of confusion:  on the second trip, when I supposedly touched on, it actually touched the card off.  Had I not noticed that, and then if an AO asked to see my card during that trip, would I have been "done" for not having a touched-on card, or would he have been able to see what had really happened?

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