30-year Transport Plan

 

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  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Interstate rail is to be moved from Keswick to the Adelaide Railway Station.
Somebody

That's absolutely hilarious.
  t320 Junior Train Controller

Only one point i will bring up where is the money going to come from, and yes bingley must agree.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

If the Overland gets replaced by a V/Line DMU in the future there wouldn't be anything too hard about putting one standard gauge track into Adelaide for one interstate train. The Victorians can handle dual-gauge platforms at Southern Cross, surely it can't be actually difficult then?

Only one point i will bring up where is the money going to come from, and yes bingley must agree.
"t320"
The report states the government seems to be talking more about a wishlist than a commitment to actually do something, they're talking about $29 billion required and an estimate of $23 billion to be available for the capital works, and the need to choose carefully which projects get done at which points in time.

A good first step to making that money go further would be to find more suitable posts for those who have mismanaged the rail projects over the last year. Running the public transport system of a thriving metropolis like Yeelanna could be a good start.
  DrJames Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
If the Overland gets replaced by a V/Line DMU in the future there wouldn't be anything too hard about putting one standard gauge track into Adelaide for one interstate train. The Victorians can handle dual-gauge platforms at Southern Cross, surely it can't be actually difficult then?
justapassenger

Surely (gauge differences aside) all that's needed is a platform of sufficient length and a way for locos to change direction?

Granted it's not high on the list of priorities but on a timeframe of 30 years, there's no point putting it in the 'won't happen' basket.   Given it's interstate rail, wouldn't much of the funding be federal?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

More details are available via a link at http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-21/premier-outlines-30-year-transport-vision-for-adelaide/5035746?section=sa

My guess is that a fair portion of the $6 billion difference will have to be federal funding, including the ten year target for South Road that Tony Abbott was talking about.

Can we invoke the Trade Practices Act to get a refund on the road projects (purchase not fit for purpose) when all the easily-extracted oil runs out?

Surely (gauge differences aside) all that's needed is a platform of sufficient length and a way for locos to change direction?
"DrJames"
Get the terminal shunter to tow out an arrived train and tow in a train ready to depart? You can get away with a single track if you use that method.

For the Overland though, V/Line would be a better all-round solution. Get a longer VLocity set with a modified interior and engine deactivation for cruising on long straights and you'd be right.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
If the Overland gets replaced by a V/Line DMU in the future there wouldn't be anything too hard about putting one standard gauge track into Adelaide for one interstate train. The Victorians can handle dual-gauge platforms at Southern Cross, surely it can't be actually difficult then?
justapassenger
How much and what's the benefit?

How many of the existing Overland customers need to access the CBD?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Fi, Fo, Fi, Fum, I smell an election.
  mclaren2007 Assistant Commissioner

Location: recharging my myki
so they took all the trams away, now they want them back. Shuld have just left them in the first place
  SouthAussie94 Station Staff

A few key points that I've taken away from it;

- Torrens Junction and the Bowden underground aren't happening. Outer Habour Line will be replaced by trams with the line diverging near the Port.
- Leader Street grade separation isn't happening. (It was questionable whether is was ever happening as it continued being mentioned but never in great detail)
- The new Northern Connector road running from the Superway to the Northern Expressway will have a rail component, running roughly from Kilburn to Virginia across what is now salt pans. This was originally announced but then abandoned. The line will also connect with the Outer Harbour freight line just before the Port River bridge. (Presumably the current line would then be abandoned).
-  The current Adelaide - Melbourne line will be upgraded. What this entails is not specified except for vaguely being called 'Rail Capacity Improvement'. Could potentially allow for double stacking.
- Rail to Roxby Downs.
- Possible extension of the Gawler line to Concordia and Roseworthy.

There may be things that I have missed but these seem to be the major rail related features of the plan. (Ignoring the suburban trams of course)

EDIT: The plan in more detail: http://www.premier.sa.gov.au/strongersa/pdf/building_a_stronger_sa--transport.pdf
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
When does GSRs lease on Keswick station expire?
Can't do much with the Overland until that happens.
Why would Vline want to run trains to Adelaide?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

When does GSRs lease on Keswick station expire?
Can't do much with the Overland until that happens.
"MD"
I can't see why GSR leasing the APT would prevent the state governments from cutting off the GSR subsidy and establishing their own service (operated by V/Line on behalf of both governments) running to Adelaide using a modified VLocity.
Why would Vline want to run trains to Adelaide?
"MD"
Same reason Countrylink and GSR currently to run to Melbourne - because they would be paid to do so.

- The new Northern Connector road running from the Superway to the Northern Expressway will have a rail component, running roughly from Kilburn to Virginia across what is now salt pans. This was originally announced but then abandoned. The line will also connect with the Outer Harbour freight line just before the Port River bridge. (Presumably the current line would then be abandoned).
-  The current Adelaide - Melbourne line will be upgraded. What this entails is not specified except for vaguely being called 'Rail Capacity Improvement'. Could potentially allow for double stacking.
"SouthAussie94"
I don't recall the Northern Connector study ever having been walked away from, so reheating a previous announcement of a potential future project for inclusion in a new pre-election list of potential future projects hardly seems surprising.

In regards to Adelaide-Melbourne, I would assume that it would just mean further extensions of passing loops to allow for actual 1800m trains to run, at present just a few loops have been extended (or new long loops built) but not enough to allow 1800m trains to actually run. My understanding is that double-stacking has too many obstacles east of the Victorian border for any SA state government projects to be of any good.
- Torrens Junction and the Bowden underground aren't happening. Outer Habour Line will be replaced by trams with the line diverging near the Port.
- Leader Street grade separation isn't happening. (It was questionable whether is was ever happening as it continued being mentioned but never in great detail)
"SouthAussie94"
I don't think that level of detail can be inferred from a wishy-washy election campaign document probably not ever intended to have any real-world outcomes - remember that in the run up to a state election even the Liebrals will pretend they love public transport. The various DPTI websites haven't yet removed any mention of stage two (Torrens Junction and Leader Street).

Torrens Junction grade separation would still be very useful for the Outer Harbour tram line, it would enable the tram route to bypass the congested section of Port Road and North Terrace to run through to Morphett Street or King William Street via War Memorial Drive, which would be a very good route for closure to private motor vehicles as a route exclusively for public transport and active transport.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
30 year plan Mark II ?

http://www.premier.sa.gov.au/strongersa/pdf/building_a_stronger_sa--transport.pdf

Plan still needs some tinkering with:
1) Obahn is still there, why ? Track would serve better function as a huge stack of recycled concrete pavers. Put the tram in as originally intended.
2) The various plans to extend the Tonsley line to Flinders/Uni/top of the hill somewhere, aren't indicated in any form.
3) The Tram-Trains are out, by the innate plan to convert the entire line to tram is still there. Why ? Aside from some other the hill engineers and property developers, no one sees the point is spending millions on a slower and more crowded trip to the city.
4) Entire Port Adelaide viaduct out of use, hey we spent millions on rebuilding it.
5) Tram line still run around the back of the NRM. Why ? It's easy to just run it through the bus depot and under the existing bridge, no complex trackwork needed then.

There are some good improvements over the original 30 year plan, way more extensive rebuild of the tram network, city loop railway, freight railway to Roxby Downs.

A couple of odd things:
AM network extended into Keswick Interstate terminal itself, see map on page 18.
Mile End Goods station is back, hope they plan to build something worthwhile near it.
Tram diverts off Pultney Street where the city loop will be.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

This report should be taken for what it is CARP; and no I am not being dyslexic but you could take it that way.

Carp muddy the waters so the other fish can't see their food, they pull out the grasses that hold the river/creek bed together and cause pollution destroying life for everybody. Lastly they are no use except, appropriately, as fertiliser.

The report is a "good news" spin to obscure the late running of what should have been signature projects for the present government. The Southern Express Way is at least a year away, late. The Noarlunga Centre rail upgrade was promised for September, it might come in December but be closed again in January. The Seaford electrification, running horribly late. The electric trains, so far only two sets delivered, there will not be enough to begin as promised before the election; sorry I meant to say in March.

Look how the report has bumped the School Sex Abuse story out of the Sadvertiser. It is a grab bag of populist ideas not yet thought through.


Better proposals have been raised on this forum than in what has been called a report.

Off the sharpen the razor blades in my Muesli.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
With a federal government completely unsympathetic to any forms of public transport, there's no way that any of this stuff can get funded.  There's no money to complete the Gawler electrification; where is the money tree that's going to pay for everything else?  Why not reconsider Johnny Howard's plan of building a large nuclear waste repository in the very geologically stable parts of outback SA; they could make billions out of it.  SA could have a nation-leading public transport and road system.

I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that reinstatement of trams is what's needed; for those middle-ring areas of Adelaide in particular, areas that aren't already served by heavy rail.

Aside from some other the hill engineers and property developers, no one sees the point is spending millions on a slower and more crowded trip to the city.
Fabricator
Have to agree there, I think the Outer Harbour line is simply too long for it to be practical.  If they want trams in the Port Adelaide area they should consider reinstatement of some form of the local area system that was once there (maybe Semaphore to Rosewater via Port Adelaide?) and have interchange points with the heavy rail system.  I don't understand why they would plan to do away with the Port Adelaide viaduct having just spent millions on rehabilitating it.

Obahn is still there, why ? Track would serve better function as a huge stack of recycled concrete pavers. Put the tram in as originally intended.
Fabricator
There's a lot of people who (believe it or not) love the Obahn and want it to stay as it is.  I've been shot down in the past for suggesting they should replace it; however the main problem with the Obahn as I see it is the lack of capacity.  You can't couple buses together at peak times.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The report is a "good news" spin to obscure the late running of what should have been signature projects for the present government. The Southern Express Way is at least a year away, late. The Noarlunga Centre rail upgrade was promised for September, it might come in December but be closed again in January. The Seaford electrification, running horribly late. The electric trains, so far only two sets delivered, there will not be enough to begin as promised before the election; sorry I meant to say in March.
steam4ian
Yeah, but the important thing is that it's happening.  I was never a fan of Mike Rann but the bloke actually got around to doing something for Adelaide; some badly needed things that were talked about for literally sixty or seventy years.  And fixing that Dean Brown mistake of the silly cut-price reversible expressway.... Adelaide's electric trains are not as far behind schedule as Auckland's (a similar project).  The glass is half-full, Ian, not half-empty.

And they're fundamentally sound ideas, they have been discussed repeatedly on this forum. Not costed or budgeted for yet but at least they're being discussed.  The tram from the Parade through to the Airport is a particularly sound idea in my opinion and should proceed ASAP; it could even be profitable and I'm sure there would be no problem in attracting private sector interest in building it; I for one would be prepared to pay extra on top of a Metroticket to get a fast tram to the city from the airport.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

A couple of odd things:
AM network extended into Keswick Interstate terminal itself, see map on page 18.
Mile End Goods station is back, hope they plan to build something worthwhile near it.
Tram diverts off Pultney Street where the city loop will be.
"fabricator"
Working on the shaky assumption that this "plan" is for real and not just part of the election campaign*, I agree with your point 3 - who on earth seriously thinks that the best way to improve public transport usage is by making it worse?

I wouldn't read too much into the first two "odd things" you've mentioned from the random hatchet job that is the city map, they are just vaguely labelled as "rail transport improvements" and "passenger transport improvements" without anything in the text giving them any context. My guess is that the blue dot in the rough area once occupied by the Mile End Goods station represents nothing more than the city loop tunnel portal, not necessarily a rather pointlessly-located station requiring a walk of hundreds of metres on a below-standard footpath to get to anything useful.

I also agree that the tram diversion from Pulteney Street to Frome Street is odd for a similar reason to your point 4 - because a whole lot of money is currently going into turning Frome Street - which is only four narrow lanes wide - into a bike route. If the bike route and tram line are going to coexist, there will have to be a full closure to motor traffic, with the same applying to the Halifax-Sturt axis. That would be a very interesting prospect, but I doubt it will impress the local traders on those streets.
The other inner suburban tram routes proposed to run along Glen Osmond Road, The Parade, Unley Road and Prospect Road are all going to require slimming down to a single general traffic lane each way and no parking for the trams to work, and as with Frome Street, Sturt Street and Halifax Street that's going to piss off a lot of businesses.


* the premier will have major problems if it turns out this is just campaign material, it would make the fake how-to-vote cards scandal look like a walk in the park.

... some badly needed things that were talked about for literally sixty or seventy years.  And fixing that Dean Brown mistake of the silly cut-price reversible expressway ...
"Don Dunstan"
Duplicating the SExy is the last road project that needs to be done on the north-south corridor. It does a great job of relieving Main South Road and getting it flowing nicely during the weekday peaks, but outside of the peaks (including traffic flowing in the opposite direction during the peaks) Main South Road already flows freely and there is no need for extra capacity to relieve it. If it had been left until after all the other parts of this "30 year plan" (a plan to keep Labor in government for 30 years?) were completed, by that point private motoring might have become too expensive and public transport too competitive for the SExy duplication to be necessary.

There's a lot of people who (believe it or not) love the Obahn and want it to stay as it is.  I've been shot down in the past for suggesting they should replace it; however the main problem with the Obahn as I see it is the lack of capacity.  You can't couple buses together at peak times.
"Don Dunstan"
I agree, of all the things that could be fixed or improved the O-Bahn is not one of them that is anywhere near a major issue. While you can't couple buses, with rubber tyres for better traction you can run them very close together compared to trains or trams.

If it is to be replaced at some point the aim should be to go for heavy rail rather than trams. Trams would be slower, and a waste of such a well-separated corridor when you could instead have EMUs running into the city underground and out the other side towards Seaford.
Have to agree there, I think the Outer Harbour line is simply too long for it to be practical.  If they want trams in the Port Adelaide area they should consider reinstatement of some form of the local area system that was once there (maybe Semaphore to Rosewater via Port Adelaide?) and have interchange points with the heavy rail system.
"Don Dunstan"
I also agree. A route running from Woodville station to West Lakes, Semaphore, Port Adelaide and via Hanson Road to Prospect could be a good option there to provide for a number of local journey options which would traverse residential areas, link with major trip generators and connect to heavy rail.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
There's nothing wrong with the obahn, it has many advantages, two of the biggest are the frequency of services and the ability to reroute services around problems that may occur in a section by road with ease - try doing that when a tram breaks down or derails in a section...

As for not coupling busses? Wtf? We can't couple our trams either so how is that a problem?
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Why are trams slower and more crowded than trains?

The trams we have are not long distance vehicles but more suitable vehicles are available: the Los Angeles Gold line comes to mind.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
Why are trams slower and more crowded than trains?

The trams we have are not long distance vehicles but more suitable vehicles are available: the Los Angeles Gold line comes to mind.
kipioneer
Well lets compare the short section where tram and train depart and arrive to the same places. Namely Adelaide Entertainment Centre to Adelaide Railway Station, arrival time before 9am.

Train (grange line)
Bowden: 8.34
Adelaide Railway Station: 8.39
Travel time: 5 mins

Tram
Adelaide Entertainment Centre: 8.28
Adelaide Railway Station: 8.42
Travel time: 14 mins

Even if the proposed tram and current train can do the same average speed over the dedicated (rail) corridor, you've still added almost 10 minutes to the travel time. However as there is also extra street running in Port Adelaide itself, not sure how long that would add.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Mmmm, yeah, how many times does the train stop between Bowden and Adelaide? There's the reason...
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Mmmm, yeah, how many times does the train stop between Bowden and Adelaide? There's the reason...
"Aaron"
Correct! Even if nobody wants to use any of the passenger stops, the tram still needs to stop up to ten times for traffic lights. The train might or might not get held up at just one or two signals along the way.

If the tram fetishists absolutely must have their way and spend hundreds of millions on downgrading the fit for purpose railway (rebuilding all the stations and track won't be cheap) then it would be better to keep the Bowden-Torrens grade separation project and run the trams onto War Memorial Drive at the city end of the underpass instead of using Port Road. WM Drive would have just the tram route and lanes for bikes in each direction (no motor traffic) between North Adelaide railway station and the Montefiore Hill traffic lights. Between Montefiore Hill and King William Road would be street running, then turning right into King William Road to enter the city on the same tracks as the Prospect Road route, with a new stop just to the west of the Adelaide Oval entrance plaza which would serve as a terminus on match days.

As for what to do with the current deficient Entertainment Centre route, maybe that could be integrated into the CityLINK loop a bit like the loop tram in Melbourne deviates off the loop towards the terminus in the Docklands area.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

What are the advantages of converting the Port lines to light rail ?

One-seat ride to multiple locations within the CBD
Street running to Westlakes

Disadvantages ?

Fewer passengers get a one-seat ride because there a fewer seats
Seats are hard
Seats are narrower
Passengers can't see the view because of advertising on the tram windows
New trams cost about twice as much as new trains for the same capacity
There is no room for growth, and if TOD at Bowden and the Port is successful, growth would be expected
Most passengers have a journey time at least 9 minutes longer
Can't build over an undergrounded railway line in the Bowden TOD
Passengers from more distant stations would loathe trams dawdling through a pedestrian mall at Bowden
Bowden TOD still has some separation because of the rail tracks
Park-and-riders from the Entertainment Centre have to walk to Bowden rather than Port Road
Services have standing room only for park-and-riders who join at Bowden
Development of Bowden TOD is delayed because of uncertainty about the rail/tram tracks
The Federal government would be exasperated by the constant changes in "plans" by the SA government, and may take the current funding off the table

So the trams lose 2 to 14 !

The rail tunnel could at a subsequent time be converted to light rail, with the trams or trains terminating at Adelaide station.  Only a small minority of passengers actually change to the tram, with most continuing their journey on foot to destinations near the station.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Disadvantages ?

Fewer passengers get a one-seat ride because there a fewer seats
Seats are hard
Seats are narrower
Passengers can't see the view because of advertising on the tram windows
mm42
Again: Why are trams slower and more crowded than trains?
The trams we have are not long distance vehicles but more suitable vehicles are available: the Los Angeles Gold line comes to mind.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
The shift of the Interstate terminal to North Terrace is later in the 30 year period.

Will there be any interstate trains in 5 or 10 years, let alone 20 or 30?

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