Pannier Tank issues. ESU Lok Pilot decoder

 
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Hello All,
I am having issues with my Hornby Pannier Tank fitted with an ESU Lok Pilot decoder.
The engine has been on address 02 for it's whole life, and it had quite good running abilities.
Today I tried to run it and it had changed to address 03, and started running really jerky (when starting).
The engine has been re-programmed to address 02, and I can't re-program on my Bachmann E-Z Command.
It has been sitting on a siding and as far as I am aware, the engine should have been isolated, and I do not often experiance "runaways".
I have made a new power bus under my layout, and it has been terminated like it should be instead of looped to it's self.
Can someone help please?
I have posted a video, but it isn't showing too well. Looks like when I chopped the video then added the fade in effects, I lost a little off the start times.
Thanks
R


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=918zdEhGebI

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  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)

I don't know anything about the bachmann set-up, but I'm wondering whether this is a DCC issue or a locomotive issue?

If you have some way of enabling the loco to run on DC (not sure if this is possible with that decoder or your system), then I would suggest you may need to try to run it on DC (even if that is just upside down in a cradle on the workbench). If the loco plays up doing that, then maybe its not your DCC programming, but could be a "physical" issue.....dirty wheels, a driving wheel might be just out of quarter etc. Of course, if you are able to just unplug the decoder and enable the model to DC operation, then that would be an even better situation (for testing purposes only).

If your DCC system has a means by which you can re-set the decoder back to factory specifications, then that is what should be done (in my opinion).

Hope this helps in some way.

Good luck,

Bill Roach

  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

try a local shop that sells DCC, a friend to redo the loco, if your DCC system is not good at reprogramming. find manuals, see how you go.

searching bristish websites may help more too re DCC on this model.

let us know.
David Head

  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

At a random guess and I do not have any DCC at all it appears that it might be either dirty track, dirty wheels or dirty pick ups on the locomotive making it erratic like that. Clean the wheels and all the track and try it again if it still does the same thing clean the pick ups on the actual locomotive that rub on the wheel backs or whatever. Get them spotless and keep them spotless all of them as DCC will not improve any model if the wheels, track or pickups are covered in muck.



If the any of them are dirty it could send a false signal to your control unit if it has back EMF detection in it and it gets the message mixed up a bit. Might not be it but worth a try. Also as Roachie has said set it to DC and try that, but you should still clean all that I said though.

I make the assumption on the fact that it is very jerky to start with  but once it gets up a bit of speed it works alright. This is usually a classic sign that the electricity is not get through properly and that something needs a bit of a clean.

  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

David

dirty wheels do not reprogram or corrupt a decoder, which  has happened here. The decoder needs resetting, and then reprogramming.

Regards,
David head

  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

I realise that David I was just offering a response mainly to the running problems of the said loco. Dirt on the wheels or rails though can corrupt the message being sent to the loco by the DCC controller is what I meant. Yes the decoder might need to be reset .



  Mansfield Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne



Hello All,
I am having issues with my Hornby Pannier Tank fitted with an ESU Lok Pilot decoder.
The engine has been on address 02 for it's whole life, and it had quite good running abilities.
Today I tried to run it and it had changed to address 03, and started running really jerky (when starting).
The engine has been re-programmed to address 02, and I can't re-program on my Bachmann E-Z Command.
It has been sitting on a siding and as far as I am aware, the engine should have been isolated, and I do not often experiance "runaways".
I have made a new power bus under my layout, and it has been terminated like it should be instead of looped to it's self.
Can someone help please?
I have posted a video, but it isn't showing too well. Looks like when I chopped the video then added the fade in effects, I lost a little off the start times.
Thanks
R


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=918zdEhGebI

"Railnthusiast"


1) If you've left it for a while, say 6 months or so without running, different brands of decoders can forget their address, and default to 3. They shouldn't but they can. They have static memory, but they still do these things.
2) The track and DCC system seems fine.
3) These Hornby 0-6-0s are geared super high, so at low speed, an ex factory decoder requires specific motor tuning to suit such a model. The BEMF seems to have a strong influence on your model's low speed control.

Some CVs need adjustment, that's all, as the decoder has muddled its memory.

  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
1) If you've left it for a while, say 6 months or so without running, different brands of decoders can forget their address, and default to 3. They shouldn't but they can. They have static memory, but they still do these things.
2) The track and DCC system seems fine.
3) These Hornby 0-6-0s are geared super high, so at low speed, an ex factory decoder requires specific motor tuning to suit such a model. The BEMF seems to have a strong influence on your model's low speed control.
Some CVs need adjustment, that's all, as the decoder has muddled its memory.
Mansfield

Hi All,
Sorry I haven't 'watched' the thread.
Thanks for all your answers, I have got the engine out again after a little break.
The engine has been used on a different layout a bit with an NCE system, and it has worked fine. I have tried it on analogue, and it is fine. I still don't know whats wrong, the electricity seems reliable, as the other locos run fine, and it's not dirty wheels or track, as they loco has worked fine on the other systems and I have cleaned the track and wheels anyway.
Is it still likely to be a programming issue, now that I have established the fact that it runs fine on the NCE system and on analogue?
I have had reson to suspect my controller might be playing games the past few times I have had to use it, but Orient Express didn't find any issues, so I don't know where to go now, I might have to buy a new decoder.
Thanks All
R
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
I wouldn't be buying a new decoder for this loco at this stage....if it works okay on a layout with NCE system, then that would indicate the decoder is okay.

If your Bachmann-controlled layout operates other locos okay, then maybe it would be worthwhile to see if you can ask your friend with the NCE system to bring his command station to your place and connect it to your layout and see if the pannier works okay that way.

I have an NCE ProCab and have no experience with other DCC systems.....but I have read a long time ago that it is not wise to buy a DCC system from a manufacturer of model railway locos. (EG: Hornby, Bachmann, MRC etc).

The feeling was that those manufacturers were good at making locos, but that their collective efforts in designing and building a DCC system and decoders often leaves a LOT to be desired.

So, whilst I'm not trying to cast aspersions on your choice of DCC system, I am simply saying that perhaps it is not coping well with the pannier for whatever reason.

Good luck

Bill Roach
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Railnthusiast,

not sure we have asked but have you other sound decoders in other locos that are ok ? YuorDCC system may not be coping.

Regards,
David Head
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
This seems to be a tricky one, if the loco behaves on a couple of different control systems then I am tempted to exclude the loco.

I am always skeptical of Bachmann DCC anything, but that said, I am not convinced that what we see here is due to the Bachmann system. I am not aware of any Bachmann/LokPilot compatibility issues, I have a sneaking suspicion that they are made by the same people.

I am considering the layout, if the track is absolutely clean then I'd want to look at the wiring. Railnthusiast I note you mention going back and looking at your layout power bus and breaking the loop, always a good thing to do. I wonder, does your track form a complete loop with your power bus? Have a look and just double check that you do not have a continuous length of rail spanning the spot where you've split your power bus, make sure you break the track where you've broken the wiring loop.

If that does not turn out to be the source of the problem then we're going to start scraping at the bottom of the causes barrel.
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
This seems to be a tricky one, if the loco behaves on a couple of different control systems then I am tempted to exclude the loco.

I am always skeptical of Bachmann DCC anything, but that said, I am not convinced that what we see here is due to the Bachmann system. I am not aware of any Bachmann/LokPilot compatibility issues, I have a sneaking suspicion that they are made by the same people.

I am considering the layout, if the track is absolutely clean then I'd want to look at the wiring. Railnthusiast I note you mention going back and looking at your layout power bus and breaking the loop, always a good thing to do. I wonder, does your track form a complete loop with your power bus? Have a look and just double check that you do not have a continuous length of rail spanning the spot where you've split your power bus, make sure you break the track where you've broken the wiring loop.

If that does not turn out to be the source of the problem then we're going to start scraping at the bottom of the causes barrel.
Aaron

Hi Aaron,
I didn't think of that, yes tht could realistically be an issue.
I will report back once I have tried this, maybe later tonight.
My power bus doesn't continue all the way through and connect with it's self, but the rails were not changed to cater for this.
Thanks
R
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Hmmmmm. I haven't exactly done what you have suggested Aaron, as I didn't change my layout wiring, but I did get the controller and place the two wires direct from the controller to the wheels of the loco, and the same problem. I will be quadruple checking the pickup's and other than that I am stuck. Should my next test to be to completely bypass the pickup's and attach the wires straight to the red and black pickup wires? I will be back tomorrow with more information.
Mansfield, your third suggestion was the Back EMF could have been causing havoc. Is this still possible with the engine running fine on the NCE?
Thanks
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Okay, either way that's pretty much eliminated the layout, I am not suspecting the loco pickup, or BEMF if the performance is normal on other systems.

I presume you have more than two locos, the next step I'd try is to swap the decoder from the Pannier with a decoder from another of your collection that runs well. If it does, I'd then plug the 02 decoder into that good running loco and see if it suddenly runs badly.
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Okay, either way that's pretty much eliminated the layout, I am not suspecting the loco pickup, or BEMF if the performance is normal on other systems.

I presume you have more than two locos, the next step I'd try is to swap the decoder from the Pannier with a decoder from another of your collection that runs well. If it does, I'd then plug the 02 decoder into that good running loco and see if it suddenly runs badly.
Aaron

I have three decoder equipped locos, including the Pannier Tank, but the Flying Scotsman decoder has been faulty for a while (I think it may be power draw issues as it has a worn out pancake motor) and the 3MT which takes a socket decoder. I have sent off an inquiry about a decoder socket to solder on as a temporary test thing, as it wont fit as a permanent option.
I will be back in touch soon, but first I have to wait for the model shop.
As usual, I appeciate your help. The Pannier Tank is my favourite engine!

Believe it or not, it was an el' cheapo Hornby at the start, and the original decoder cost more than the loco, and it has been my most reliable engine for many years.
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Hello,
I finally put the socket in the Pannier Tank, and the engine runs great with the decoder from my 3MT tank.
I didn't get a plug though as for some reason I  assumed I  would get a plug and a socket. That was something I  should have asked when I bought the thing. Oh well.
I will put the Pannier Tank decoder (which doesn't take a plug) in one of my Lima things and see how it goes.
When I had the decoder installed, I was assured it would work on a DC system as well, however Everytime a DC engine came on the same tracks, all the other locos would keep running, and the Pannier Tank would stop. Hmm. Now the Pannier Tank will not run properly. My controller has been tested by my local shop, and they have told me it works OK after I have had other concerns with it, and I am starting to think perhaps there was a fault that allowed components of the decoder to short or fry and stop working.
I know many people would consider running DC and DCC at the same time to be a big no-no, but it works (so far, for the seven years I have had the DCC system) and to not do so would limit  what I could run with other people.
Back soon to update.
Thanks
R
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
My newest update is that the decoder works. It's probably not faulty. It powers my Lima engine well enough, and the 3MT decoder powers the Pannier Tank well. This is way too confusing for me!
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Hmmm, this is awkward, I need to think about this a little. You're sure you had the decoder wired into the Pannier properly? The DC/DCC thing is not quite as scary as many would believe, but the behaviour you describe is 'not standard'.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Aaron, cv 29  ,run on dc ?

David
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Hello All,


I hope you don't mind, but I am back to bother you all with the same problem.


Today I got the trains out, and once again was stumped over the issue with the Pannier Tank. I found I had lazily left the wrong decoders in the wrong locos, and had to read this thread to remember what I had done.  I bought a socket and tested some other decoders on my Pannier Tank engine, and they worked on the engine, and the Pannier Tank's decoder worked in my other locos.  I have considered swapping a decoder, but I am unconvinced this is the most appropriate option to take just yet.


Directed towards Mansfield; Being totally 'green' with regards to programming decoders, could you please give tell me what CV's you think I need to 'play' with to try and minimise Back EMF? I think your theory could be quite a realistic theory, and in absence of all other 'ideal' options, I thought I would have a go and re-programming and see what happens.


Thanks


R

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