Eureka R Class Arrives!

 
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Returning to the subject of this thread, anyone know where I can get 150+g of depleted uranium?  I might need some when my R class eventually strives.
Mark
LaidlayM
Hang about, I will arrange to have some shot in your direction. One should do the trick.

Don't forget to duck.

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  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

I would suggest that a lot of the problems are certainly quality control from the factory, & so far we have not seen any new models from their new factory, I also tend to think that after a while the importers end up just wanting the model to get here & let things go a bit when they check out the final production sample, reason being any changes at that time ends up costing serious dollars.

Certainly what we have seen so far is locomotive models made from plastic, which has no weight at in it, a reason that TOR changed the boiler & body from plastic to metal on the 32cl to hope that it would pull better, that along with gear drive to all wheels certainly helped it.  The change from the plastic body to metal also caused delays as well as the $100.00 price rise as new tooling was required, something I doubt that Eureka could have done for the Rclass to be a viable product. A reason I suggest that all the future Steam models will all have gears & metal bodies, the exception may be with the 59cl which would depend on which factory is producing it, & how far advanced the tooling was/is with the change over.  If its done in plastic without gears for the driving wheels, it will be quite prototypical owing to how easy the 1:1 version was very slippery on its feet.

The other issue is the amount of parts that simply fall off models, which has plagued the plastic stuff from the beginning, especially when its all plastic, or Delrin that is not glued into position to make the bits secure. Judging by the photo's I have seen the front bogie on the R really is very basic & hard to see there is any substance to it weight wise, certainly the bogie frame looks to sit high as the wheels also look large.  The rear bogie though should be more solid owing there being more in the frame work of it, but being Delrin also not a lot of overall weight.

Without weight above the bogies, with the spring removed they simply are not heavy enough to hold themselves on the track, as that is the reason for the spring to keep pressure on them to not derail, catch 22, unless metal bogies are made with insulation on them.

Unfortunately with so many modellers wanting all the detail possible whether seen or not, with calls for finer tolerances in the end reliability suffers.
a6et
Its not hard to remove the springs and add weight to the bogies to improve tractive effort on the R class. Trimming the springs is easier again, but if you go to far you are back to adding weight to the trucks. Not far enough and the improvement is minimal. It's a pity the trucks did not come with factory fitted metal weights like the Eureka 38. The diecast boiler and footplate the Trainorama 32 did not significantly increase the weight of the model, and the leading bogie spring and friction of the tender pickups made it a poor pulling model out of the box. Yes, future steam models from Eureka will have some parts of the boiler diecast, the NSW 50 is an example, however the bulk of non Australian RTR steam will continue to use plastic boilers.  The bottom line is die casting costs more and does not produce the same level of fine detail that can be reproduced on an injection molded component. An all gear driven drive makes no difference to the tractive effort or life of the model. The extra gears do nothing because the gear tooth clearances still result in the side rods doing all the work. Thats why most model steam outline models use side rods to transmit turning motion, even if some of the local importers and some Eureopeans are using all wheel gear drives.

I have a modest fleet of H0  steam outline locomotives, none have springs on their trucks. Tractive effort was improved typically more than 20% on 4-6-0's and 4-6-2 by removing springs. Often you need to add/adjust the weights to get the centre of gravity between the driving wheels. I recently decreased the weight of a brass NSW 36 to get the centre of gravity between the drivers, and with the spring removed from the truck, it ended up with better traction as expected.

If well designed, a fine scale model is as reliable as a well designed coarse scale toy.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

I got an answer about the Eureka R Class weights, and the Eureka engine only section weighs around 250 grams, while the SEM engine only weighs in at 400 grams. So the SEM model is roughly 60% heavier, and that will account for quite a bit of performance difference. As has been pointed out by 'a6et', plastic steam locomotive bodies are just too light.

So if you want you Eureka R Class to perform better, then you need to be looking to add around 150 grams or more of additional weight to the locomotive only.
TheBlacksmith
I have a number of NSW  standard goods  locomotives that have a mass of 250g. On a 1 in 40 grade they can haul a train that weighs 1080g. That,s more than a 7 car HUB set, 8 car LUB or BOB set. It is about 25 S wagons(using the AMRA carriage mass standard). Yes adding mass to the R will increase tractive effort, but 400g total mass is over the top for a VR R class in my view. My NSW 57 is just over 400g, and that is heavy enough for the maximum load trains I run representing 1000 Tons.
My NSW 32 class passenger locomotives are 220g and can also haul the above passenger trains up the same grade.

My plastic bodied 38,s mass is more than 250g, and pull more than required, proof that plastic bodied H0 steam locomotives are heavy enough to pull scale loads up scale grades, if you get rid of the truck springs.

Terry Flynn.

http://www.amra.asn.au/standards.htm
  a6et Minister for Railways

a6et,

I remember reading somewhere that the D59 will have gear drive to all axles.  However, don't know if it also said a cast boiler.  I wonder if 8 drivers might help.  Probably not because that puts less weight on each axle for the same mass unit.  However, an extra set of wheels might give more friction.  Dunno, have to wait until my D50 gets here and try it out.

Best regards,
John
John_Bushell

John

I did say may, there has been no real news from Eureka regarding the 59, & others, although the VR K & NSW 50 will have metal boilers/bodies also gears but do not know about the 59cl

Realistically how much (getting back on topic) more of a delay would have happened had the R been retooled, even giving it gear drive to each wheel would have helped, but certainly the boiler in metal.

Many locomotive models, especially steam do need the metal boilers, while some could get away with plastic boilers with added on detail in metal, in the case of the R, how much extra weight would have been added if the model came with a metal dome, main reservoir tanks, also the running board in metal?  I would think they would have added more than enough weight to the model to have satisfied those who purchased the models.

Also regarding the 2 bogies, had they been cast in metal, with the wheels being insulated, rather than delrin they would not have required the springs, & therefore likely provided enough weight for trouble free running.

Which brings me to the future models from Eureka for both Victoria, such as the Kcl & NSW standard goods engines, what method will be found on the single front wheel to keep them on the rail, a spring, as I would not think that a plastic main frame for them would be heavy enough by themselves.
  Teditor Deputy Commissioner

Location: Toowoomba
Returning to the subject of this thread, anyone know where I can get 150+g of depleted uranium?  I might need some when my R class eventually strives.
Mark
LaidlayM
Buy some fresh stuff, from the sound of some purchasers, by the time you get the R Class it will be depleted!
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

Not wanting to get into the debate on whats better, metal or plastic boilers, springs vs metal pony trucks etc, but I'm curious to know what influence the importer like Eureka has on the design and material of certain components?

F'rinstance, is the chassis style/pilots/drive mech' etc a free for all and up to the importer to send a completed engineering drawing, or does the importer supply what the items must look like externally and the manufacturer simply tools them by their technical design with the correct look?

Does the importer have the ability to say I want the model to weigh x amount, have a weight distribution of xyz, and pull this load, or is it a case of you get what you get?

Eureka is somewhat in a no win situation as they are about the only ones doing steam, so it's somewhat harsh to say they can't get it right when nobody else is doing them.

Having said that since the Austrains 36 came out we do seem to be repeating the same problems with each new release, which makes me wonder if it is within the control of the local importer to actually influence that much of the design?

It's another debate completely and some will say not worth having, but if a Bo-Bo T Class can pull a decent load, should we be looking at tender drive for these troublesome steam loco's?

Sure you'd have a small drive shaft going from cab to tender, but I dare say a loco and tender driven situation would give you all the traction you'd ever need, albeit with a more complicated drive system, but not impossible.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
My R707 has arrived and thought everyone might like a few photos (since there has been some discussion over R707 and I hadn't seen any photos of it). Also, there was a small loose piece in the box that I'm not quite sure about, so if anyone knows what it is and where it came from, that would be appreciated (since I've had a look over the loco and nothing immediately stands out).

Edit:

Relocated photos to an album on Photobucket:

http://s66.photobucket.com/user/TheMeddlingMonk/library/VR%20Steam/Eureka%20Models%20R707


Staff Exchanger (loose piece in the box):

http://s66.photobucket.com/user/TheMeddlingMonk/library/VR%20Steam/Eureka%20Models%20R707/Staff%20Exchanger
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Thanks A6et for your reply what you said is about what I thought. Thanks for that!
  jamiepb Junior Train Controller

The mystery piece is the staff exchanger. Mine fell of too.
  jamiepb Junior Train Controller

In this pic 18a R707 vs H220.jpg it fits at the bottom of the cab in the small recess
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
The mystery piece is the staff exchanger. Mine fell of too.
jamiepb
Thanks jamiepb. I'll see if I can work out exactly where it's detached from.
  a6et Minister for Railways

My R707 has arrived and thought everyone might like a few photos (since there has been some discussion over R707 and I hadn't seen any photos of it). Also, there was a small loose piece in the box that I'm not quite sure about, so if anyone knows what it is and where it came from, that would be appreciated (since I've had a look over the loco and nothing immediately stands out).

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/c/7/ymru.jpg[/img]
Full album of photos available here:

https://imageshack.com/a/AXJb/1
TheMeddlingMonk

Is it just me or does the cab roof look as if its separated from the cab wall & backhead on the right hand side?
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Is it just me or does the cab roof look as if its separated from the cab wall & backhead on the right hand side?
a6et

Just did a quick check of the model and nope, it's not separated, although I can see why you'd say that from the photo. Not my best photo, I'm afraid.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Not wanting to get into the debate on whats better, metal or plastic boilers, springs vs metal pony trucks etc, but I'm curious to know what influence the importer like Eureka has on the design and material of certain components?

F'rinstance, is the chassis style/pilots/drive mech' etc a free for all and up to the importer to send a completed engineering drawing, or does the importer supply what the items must look like externally and the manufacturer simply tools them by their technical design with the correct look?

Does the importer have the ability to say I want the model to weigh x amount, have a weight distribution of xyz, and pull this load, or is it a case of you get what you get?

Eureka is somewhat in a no win situation as they are about the only ones doing steam, so it's somewhat harsh to say they can't get it right when nobody else is doing them.

Having said that since the Austrains 36 came out we do seem to be repeating the same problems with each new release, which makes me wonder if it is within the control of the local importer to actually influence that much of the design?

It's another debate completely and some will say not worth having, but if a Bo-Bo T Class can pull a decent load, should we be looking at tender drive for these troublesome steam loco's?

Sure you'd have a small drive shaft going from cab to tender, but I dare say a loco and tender driven situation would give you all the traction you'd ever need, albeit with a more complicated drive system, but not impossible.
Dazz

Daz

Some have suggested tender drives, but why not as a booster, in other words fit a second motor to drive the tender wheels to the one in the boiler?

The aspect that Eureka is in a no wind situation is no different to any of the others who produce loco's, especially steam models.  Several companies in the U.S with BLI the primary one is producing what they call hybrid models that are produced out of brass, die cast & plastic, apparently the costs are not as significant as those of plastic or at least not that much more anyway, one only has to look at the prices of them & compare to plastic models to see that.

The importer (he) has to make a decision in the first instance in the path he will take regarding the models he is to get produced, that is with plastic, metal or a combination of them, he also has to try & ensure that the plans are pretty well spot on especially once the costs of dies are set, as any alterations afterwards will cost & can seriously affect the end prices, so the team the importer/producer has around him is vital in the models production to ensure its accuracy & the like.

He will also take advice from the factory & the primary engineer who is the one he works through with the model as to what changes are recommended by him, so its pretty well dependant on relationships between factory & importer as to what comes, along with the importers team in picking up errors & the like, I do not think its an overtly easy job, but if the team knows their job it should not be overtly hard either.

At the same time, the importer is still at the mercy of the factory as to what will actually come, baring in mind the factory will not go to production & assembly & transporting the models until full payment is received.

So in the end, the importer needs to be as certain as possible that what he has paid for, & has been specified is what he will actually get, & the only way that can happen is for both factory & importer have that relationship & can actually trust each other, especially the importer trusting the factory to produce what has been agreed & paid for. Sadly that is where the problems seem to be with our models, but Eureka & the others are not on a solo ship in that regard either, a reason why Hornby is producing more models & items back in England these days.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Just did a quick check of the model and nope, it's not separated, although I can see why you'd say that from the photo. Not my best photo, I'm afraid.
TheMeddlingMonk

Thanks for the clarification, shows how easy it is for photo's to produce something that is not correct.  Good that the cab is ok as well.
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
I finally saw a Eureka R class tonight at the EMRC meeting.  It does look to be a good model and I am looking forward to receiving mine.  Most people I know still don't have theirs, it that generally the case?

Mark
  TrainTree Train Controller

Location: Eltham
I finally saw a Eureka R class tonight at the EMRC meeting.  It does look to be a good model and I am looking forward to receiving mine.  Most people I know still don't have theirs, it that generally the case?

Mark
LaidlayM

Mark,

I rang the other day, spoke to Ron, gave my details to complete the transaction and it turned up 2 days later. You really should ring.

Andrew
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Ok people.

Some people out there are saying that the removal of the spring from the pony truck makes little difference. Most of you saw my movie. The train cannot even climb the first meter up my 1.5% incline.  Clean track, dirty track, makes no difference. It went into serious wheel slip with 6 Powerline cars and a SOP Parlor car (7 cars)   It would only climb when I removed 3 cars from the rear inc. the Parlor car.
Tonight I ran the 7 cars to the top after cleaning the track, and fixing a couple of risers that was causing the gradient to add and minus a little. I had installed super elevation, but must have been getting tired of it as I approached the top, and variations of about 10mm which coupled together produced a 20mm extra rise, and caused the stall. I readjusted the risers and maintained the steady gradient almost to the top. However after doing this the train started to stall on the very top circle of the helix. In fixing the lower tracks I have transferred the problem to the top track. This will take some fixing, as I want to maintain 10cm spacing, should anybody want to run double stacks in the future.

Ok the 7 car train now runs all the way to the top track before stalling.    The ones who are saying removing the spring does not help, are just plain wrong Smile
Cheers
Rod
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
Mark,

I rang the other day, spoke to Ron, gave my details to complete the transaction and it turned up 2 days later. You really should ring.

Andrew
TrainTree
I paid 7 years ago and confirmed details 3 months back.  I have nothing to tell him.

Mark
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Ok people.

Some people out there are saying that the removal of the spring from the pony truck makes little difference. Most of you saw my movie. The train cannot even climb the first meter up my 1.5% incline.  Clean track, dirty track, makes no difference. It went into serious wheel slip with 6 Powerline cars and a SOP Parlor car (7 cars)   It would only climb when I removed 3 cars from the rear inc. the Parlor car.
Tonight I ran the 7 cars to the top after cleaning the track, and fixing a couple of risers that was causing the gradient to add and minus a little. I had installed super elevation, but must have been getting tired of it as I approached the top, and variations of about 10mm which coupled together produced a 20mm extra rise, and caused the stall. I readjusted the risers and maintained the steady gradient almost to the top. However after doing this the train started to stall on the very top circle of the helix. In fixing the lower tracks I have transferred the problem to the top track. This will take some fixing, as I want to maintain 10cm spacing, should anybody want to run double stacks in the future.

Ok the 7 car train now runs all the way to the top track before stalling.    The ones who are saying removing the spring does not help, are just plain wrong Smile
Cheers
Rod
comtrain
So Rod, you rebuilt half the track and then say removing the spring has little effect. It would have been much more conclusive if you simply removed the spring and tried again, now you cannot really say which action improved the model.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
All gear drive does not improve the pulling power of a steam locomotive, it is just adding more gears and therefore more complication for no added benefit. Rod couplings do exactly the same job and have to be there for prototypical appearance anyway. And there is an additional risk that the gears can fight the rods if the mesh is not perfect. As Terry points out, gear backlash means that the rods are already doing all the work anyway.

Driving through to the tender would add little to the performance either, as the additional losses to the motor drive train would absorb any benefits gained. Tender drives are also problematical, particularly as these are bogie tenders, so you would need the equivalent of a BO-BO drive in the tender. Imagine what that would add to the cost. And it is not likely to improve performance much as you cannot fit much weight in the tender for adhesion when it is full of decoders, speakers and such.

And in answer to Terry, the SEM R Class model that weighs in at 400 grams has been working just fine for many years, the weight is pretty ideal for obtaining good adhesion, as the model can pull prototypical length trains. There is little penalty in having that sort of weight in a model, given properly designed bearings and a carefully selected motor and gearbox.
  Teditor Deputy Commissioner

Location: Toowoomba
I paid 7 years ago and confirmed details 3 months back.  I have nothing to tell him.

Mark
LaidlayM
Don't take it personal, but if you are going to remain stubborn and stand by your beliefs, you are really the only one missing out.

When a lot is happening, three months can can make a difference.
  a6et Minister for Railways

All gear drive does not improve the pulling power of a steam locomotive, it is just adding more gears and therefore more complication for no added benefit. Rod couplings do exactly the same job and have to be there for prototypical appearance anyway. And there is an additional risk that the gears can fight the rods if the mesh is not perfect. As Terry points out, gear backlash means that the rods are already doing all the work anyway.

Driving through to the tender would add little to the performance either, as the additional losses to the motor drive train would absorb any benefits gained. Tender drives are also problematical, particularly as these are bogie tenders, so you would need the equivalent of a BO-BO drive in the tender. Imagine what that would add to the cost. And it is not likely to improve performance much as you cannot fit much weight in the tender for adhesion when it is full of decoders, speakers and such.

And in answer to Terry, the SEM R Class model that weighs in at 400 grams has been working just fine for many years, the weight is pretty ideal for obtaining good adhesion, as the model can pull prototypical length trains. There is little penalty in having that sort of weight in a model, given properly designed bearings and a carefully selected motor and gearbox.
TheBlacksmith
I am personally not able to dispute the aspect regarding a steam loco fitted with gears to all wheels as per the TOR 32cl, & proposed with future Eureka models, simply because I had thought the gears would have been an improvement for small locomotives that we have here in Oz, such models like the 32, standard goods engines & several of the VR steamers are the candidates for such a set up.

My understanding is that the all geared system in the 32cl was suggested by the then engineer at SDK who was charged with its production, it was part of the reason why TOR at the time also accepted the move to metal for the model owing to the very light weight of them, therefore presenting problems with pulling power.  I understand that the same engineer is in charge of the factory that is now used by Eureka as well as Austrains, so its likely a reason why the K & other models are heading down that direction.

I made the comment re the tender more as tongue in cheek as others have suggested this idea in the past when similar discussions have arose regarding the light weight models & pulling power. For me the biggest blite on the tender motors is when the drive shaft is seen going through the cab to the engine, just something the modeller has to accept was the inference.

As we look into the prototypical length loads & other aspects, its once again a problem for the modeller, particularly for the steam era modeller, as its one thing to quote the prototypical nature of a load but are we talking empty or loaded wagons? Likewise whether or not the model is working on what grade & curve conditions.

Its one thing when we look at open wagons with nothing in them & easy to say its empty, but when we then consider the grade of the layout as well as the radius of the curve it brings an equation into that basically defies the prototype.  The prototype also had not just the load of the train as part of its make up, but also was based on the prevailing track conditions especially the curves over the ruling grades.

In most cases we operate our models with closed type vehicles & consider them loaded, simply a result that any steam model would not pull a prototypical load & length load up a ruling grade that the real thing did.  Using a Garratt as an example on a 1:40grade, & using the TOR BWH hoppers as an example which are very good rolling models or even try it with BCH's of the same brand. The load for a garratt, was dependant on which actual 1:40 it was working on so going for the best load being on the Short North from Hornsby it was 650tonnes.  That load is more than the 615 tonnes for 29 hoppers & van, but I could not see any HO model of a garratt pulling that many of the hoppers on a full 1:40 grade, doubtfull if it would even take the equivalent length load in S wagons.

Usually as a modeller we run very light loads as close to the prototype as possible & when we come to grades, even the ruling or heaviest grade on a layout, would have much tighter curves than the prototype, & this is where all the importers have to bring in compromises, & many of them do not sit well with the end user.

Looking at the Rcl, I would say in the prototype version would have not had great pulling power for goods trains, which was the same with the 38cl, even on passenger trains there would have been limitations based on the grade & also I would think on the curvature & other track conditions.  As such a model needs every little bit of an advantage the engineer in charge of production can wring out of it. In the same way, the importer has a real need to listen to him but also have people on his team that can work that sort of thing out with the engineer, & advise accordingly the best option for the importer.
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
Realistically how much (getting back on topic) more of a delay would have happened had the R been retooled, even giving it gear drive to each wheel would have helped, but certainly the boiler in metal.
a6et

I don't think that would have happened. Given the cost of tooling for the plastic boiler, and the need to spend that again for a tool suitable for casting a metal boiler (I don't know if it would work for both) is probably the reason it came out with the plastic one. In contrast the upcoming K-class has a metal boiler with plastic parts for details.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
I paid 7 years ago and confirmed details 3 months back.  I have nothing to tell him.

Mark
LaidlayM
Hey Mark
I jumped the gun two weeks before the mail out started with change of address details and was able to pick another number as mine was now not being done.   I think I must have been the first on the group and I believe at least 4 days ahead of anybody else that has told us they got theirs? Because I believe in the old adage..  God (or Ron) helps those who help themselves Very Happy  Trust me, send in a new confirmation of your order and I think your model will be in your hands mid week Smile
Cheers
Rod

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