Eureka R Class Arrives!

 
  a6et Minister for Railways

I don't think that would have happened. Given the cost of tooling for the plastic boiler, and the need to spend that again for a tool suitable for casting a metal boiler (I don't know if it would work for both) is probably the reason it came out with the plastic one. In contrast the upcoming K-class has a metal boiler with plastic parts for details.
K160
The retooling would have had to happen in the early days just as happened with the TOR 32cl, however my thought is pretty well that the engineer may well have said the plastic boiler would have, or should be adequate for the task, given that it is a reasonably large locomotive. In saying that I doubt that the Chinese engineers are all that knowledgeable or maybe fussed about model railways, to them its a job to be done, & they get paid for it.

I did mention the Kclass as well as the 50cl coming with metal boilers, also they are coming with all gear driven wheels, which I am now wondering about more as a result of what Hollywood has said, & backing up comments from Terry.

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  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
Buy some fresh stuff, from the sound of some purchasers, by the time you get the R Class it will be depleted!
Teditor
Very funny and many a truth is spoken in jest.

Mark
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
Don't take it personal, but if you are going to remain stubborn and stand by your beliefs, you are really the only one missing out.

When a lot is happening, three months can can make a difference.
Teditor
Maybe if I got the loco I would then be missing out on something to complain about?

Mark
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

So Rod, you rebuilt half the track and then say removing the spring has little effect. It would have been much more conclusive if you simply removed the spring and tried again, now you cannot really say which action improved the model.
TheBlacksmith
He still can redo the experiment with his improved grade, find the train limit with springs, then without. I know it works, as do many others. It's also consistent with the theory.

Terry Flynn.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

All gear drive does not improve the pulling power of a steam locomotive, it is just adding more gears and therefore more complication for no added benefit. Rod couplings do exactly the same job and have to be there for prototypical appearance anyway. And there is an additional risk that the gears can fight the rods if the mesh is not perfect. As Terry points out, gear backlash means that the rods are already doing all the work anyway.

Driving through to the tender would add little to the performance either, as the additional losses to the motor drive train would absorb any benefits gained. Tender drives are also problematical, particularly as these are bogie tenders, so you would need the equivalent of a BO-BO drive in the tender. Imagine what that would add to the cost. And it is not likely to improve performance much as you cannot fit much weight in the tender for adhesion when it is full of decoders, speakers and such.

And in answer to Terry, the SEM R Class model that weighs in at 400 grams has been working just fine for many years, the weight is pretty ideal for obtaining good adhesion, as the model can pull prototypical length trains. There is little penalty in having that sort of weight in a model, given properly designed bearings and a carefully selected motor and gearbox.
TheBlacksmith
In the case of all geared driving wheel H0 steam outline models, the model ends up lighter, because the mainframe needs to be hollow. A negative for traction. Yes over weight models do the job, and allow trains to run that are over scale length over steeper than prototype grades. It's not the fault of the steam locomotive importer if some have unrealistic traction expectations for RTR mass produced steam outline models. Considering my Eureka 38 is about 300g, and pulls more than what is required up prototype grades, and my other models that are the same weight as the Eureka R, with the same tyre material can pull an equivalent prototype load of the R class, it's weight is OK in my view as long as you get rid of the springs. However adding a little more mass is easy.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

The retooling would have had to happen in the early days just as happened with the TOR 32cl, however my thought is pretty well that the engineer may well have said the plastic boiler would have, or should be adequate for the task, given that it is a reasonably large locomotive. In saying that I doubt that the Chinese engineers are all that knowledgeable or maybe fussed about model railways, to them its a job to be done, & they get paid for it.

I did mention the Kclass as well as the 50cl coming with metal boilers, also they are coming with all gear driven wheels, which I am now wondering about more as a result of what Hollywood has said, & backing up comments from Terry.
a6et
The plastic boiler is a good decision in my view. Sharper finer detail is what you have on the R. They could have made the die cast parts fill more of the model to increase mass, and at 250g, it's heavy enough for scale loads up scale grades after you remove the springs and add some weight to the trucks for high speed running over rough track.

Terry Flynn
  R704 Chief Commissioner

Location: Who cares you ain't gonna visit!
As for the Call Vs No Call debate, I called this morning, was answered within two "rings"  said I wished to confirm my details and gave my name, 20 seconds later my file was up, order confirmed and told it would be in the post today.  Now to eagerly await its arrival so I can gut it and fill it with some more mass.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
As for the Call Vs No Call debate, I called this morning, was answered within two "rings"  said I wished to confirm my details and gave my name, 20 seconds later my file was up, order confirmed and told it would be in the post today.  Now to eagerly await its arrival so I can gut it and fill it with some more mass.
R704
Your post was like me last week, but no R yet........... be patient !

Regards,
David Head
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Maybe someone needs to ring Ron and tell him to get his RRRRRRRs into gear! Wink

Roachie
  R704 Chief Commissioner

Location: Who cares you ain't gonna visit!
Ba Doom Tishh !!
Nice one Roachie
well We've waited this long whats another week Laughing
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
In the case of all geared driving wheel H0 steam outline models, the model ends up lighter, because the mainframe needs to be hollow. A negative for traction. Yes over weight models do the job, and allow trains to run that are over scale length over steeper than prototype grades. It's not the fault of the steam locomotive importer if some have unrealistic traction expectations for RTR mass produced steam outline models. Considering my Eureka 38 is about 300g, and pulls more than what is required up prototype grades, and my other models that are the same weight as the Eureka R, with the same tyre material can pull an equivalent prototype load of the R class, it's weight is OK in my view as long as you get rid of the springs. However adding a little more mass is easy.
NSWGR1855
A lot of assumptions in there Terry. It is not a case of people having unrealistic expectations in regard to hauling power, the model clearly is not able to haul a prototypical load as it is. Three to five passenger cars is a very light load for the real thing and hardly over-doing it, and I wonder if you have actually seen the sort of load hauled by the R class in real life.

And what is the basis for your assertion about 'overweight' models? Are you saying the SEM R class is overweight?
  a6et Minister for Railways

A lot of assumptions in there Terry. It is not a case of people having unrealistic expectations in regard to hauling power, the model clearly is not able to haul a prototypical load as it is. Three to five passenger cars is a very light load for the real thing and hardly over-doing it, and I wonder if you have actually seen the sort of load hauled by the R class in real life.

And what is the basis for your assertion about 'overweight' models? Are you saying the SEM R class is overweight?
TheBlacksmith
I would have to agree with you on this one as well.  As I previously mentioned I have no idea about the load an R took on what grade, & that is how it needs to be based upon.  Its one thing to have a model that can haul a load on a layout which in many cases is quite short compared to the real thing, & that is where the real test would be on a layout with a fair length grade.

The thing is with the models, & does not matter who it comes from is that they need to get it right in the planning stages, while Terry says that plastic will give crisper detail as against metal, something I have pointed out in the past also, however not much point in having the best crisp detail if the model cannot do what is expected of it, & for those who do know what the prototype hauled then that is what they expect unless the best crisp detailed model is destined for a showcase.

Why not have the weighted bogies on the model from the factory, why not have the weight in the body direct from the body, if the model does not have gears, as Terry has said, why not have the weight in the chassis? Each of these areas are what gives the problems, so why is it not fixed at the point of production?

If the SEM model is overweight & that would mean it inhibits its pulling power, I think there would have been comments on RP about it as well, I have not heard of anyone complaining about the various white metal & brass kits from SEM & ARkits with their DJH varieties being over weight & not able to do their job either.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
So Rod, you rebuilt half the track and then say removing the spring has little effect. It would have been much more conclusive if you simply removed the spring and tried again, now you cannot really say which action improved the model.
TheBlacksmith
Hey, now wait a minute. I did say I fixed a couple of problems near the top of the Helix and if you watch the video the R never climbed the first meter of track with the 7 cars Very Happy I never did any work on that part of the track.  So my answer still stands...
Without touching the track on the bottom level, or the second level, the train was able to progress to the third level without stalling Wink   Continued work should actually see my requirements fulfilled.
I need to be able to get the Albury pass with up to 7 cars to easily climb the helix, as I want to run prototype loads behind prototypically correct engines along the entire line.
Cheers
Rod
Edit

I forgot to add that the SEM R Class (Built by Mike Walthers) Pulls 14 Powerline Cars up the grade without any wheel slip (that I have noticed))  We ran that this afternoon several times. It has a problem with the pony truck though. It derails on many occasions and had to be re-railed constantly. I have a feeling a spring might be needed to hold the heavy metal pony truck firmly on the track ( Very Happy )
Cheers
Rod
Edit maybe I can use the Eureka spring?  Smile
  Bruce McLean Junior Train Controller

Location: Kangaroo Flat
Test runs on my two gradients have shown that removing the spring has no effect on loss of adhesion.  The engine fails at the same location with and without the spring.  Without the spring it also derailed constantly.

I have managed to find a few places to add lead and increased the weight by 60gms.   My R now will haul 15 Steam Era GY's and a van without stalling.   It would only get half way up the gradients previously.    Any larger trains will require a banker if an R Class is rostered.

Bruce
  jamiepb Junior Train Controller

Last post from me about this. I put Bullfrog Snot on one pair of drivers, plus all the extra lead, problem solved ! Not buying a K til I can see one running in a shop.
  TrainTree Train Controller

Location: Eltham
Just took mine for a quick run.. Very happy.. Was going to post a video, but got held up by flat battery in camera...
  steambuff Station Master

Location: Research, Victoria
Mine finally turned up yesterday - R700 - 7yrs 5mths and 5 days in the making!
Looks ok out of the box, no loose bits.
Unfortunately other commitments means it will sit on my shelf until Sunday when I can get down to my layout and see how it performs on my 1:50 grades.

FWIW, I rang Ron earlier this week, there had been some mixup in mine apparently marked as sent on 22/11 but then crossed out -whatever-but he promptly said he would post one, and it turned up on 5/12.

Happy steaming
Pete
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Test runs on my two gradients have shown that removing the spring has no effect on loss of adhesion.  The engine fails at the same location with and without the spring.  Without the spring it also derailed constantly.

I have managed to find a few places to add lead and increased the weight by 60gms.   My R now will haul 15 Steam Era GY's and a van without stalling.   It would only get half way up the gradients previously.    Any larger trains will require a banker if an R Class is rostered.

Bruce
Bruce McLean
Your test does not show removing springs on trucks has no effect. What it shows is it does not increase traction enough for the load you wish to pull up the grade you have using the carriages you have. Removing springs does increase traction. It's proven beyond reasonable doubt. Sounds like your grades are much steeper than prototype.

Terry Flynn.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

A lot of assumptions in there Terry. It is not a case of people having unrealistic expectations in regard to hauling power, the model clearly is not able to haul a prototypical load as it is. Three to five passenger cars is a very light load for the real thing and hardly over-doing it, and I wonder if you have actually seen the sort of load hauled by the R class in real life.

And what is the basis for your assertion about 'overweight' models? Are you saying the SEM R class is overweight?
TheBlacksmith
An over weight model is one that when fully loaded, causes the motor to stall. The SEM R has more weight than necessary to pull scale loads up scale grades. I consider it over designed as far as pulling power goes. I'm not saying the kit is bad, just you don't need 400g for a VR R.

Terry Flynn.
  jamiepb Junior Train Controller

Ok one more from me. With the snot on it , it pulls 20+ 4 wheelers easily. Who would have thought !
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
An over weight model is one that when fully loaded, causes the motor to stall. The SEM R has more weight than necessary to pull scale loads up scale grades. I consider it over designed as far as pulling power goes. I'm not saying the kit is bad, just you don't need 400g for a VR R.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855
Hardly overdesigned, it is a large locomotive and when reproduced in white-metal, that is what it ends up weighing. It does not stall under load, it wheel-slips, which is the desired outcome. What does one of those white-metal 38s weigh, as it would be a comparable model. Roachie?
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Your test does not show removing springs on trucks has no effect.
NSWGR1855
And your test of removing the springs does have an effect? What a pompous reply, there is no evidence your test is any more credible than Bruce's.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Ok one more from me. With the snot on it , it pulls 20+ 4 wheelers easily. Who would have thought !
jamiepb
But two things you have done with the Bullfrog Snot no matter how thin you have applied it the wheels with the snot on them are now slightly larger in diameter than those without it on, this is not really a good thing. Also what happens when the Bullfrog Snot wears off the wheels You do not want to be replacing the snot ever month or so just to run a prototypical train. Better in the long run to actually fix the locomotive faults to start with and do it once and then enjoy the model.

If you use Bull frog Snot to fix it you might as well use Lima models with traction tyres on the wheels as that is really what it amounts to in the end.

Personally it should move a prototypical load up an average model railway grade though and be designed to do just that. Otherwise it would be like designing a SAR 500B class that could only haul two Auscision E cars up that same grade, not too good in the pulling dept. I thought days of locomotives that had this problem vanished with Traxx model trains actually, the 48/830 had a nice body and detail at the time but could not pull a train to save itself. Nice model shame about the mechanism though.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

The SEM R has more weight than necessary to pull scale loads up scale grades.
NSWGR1855
It is quite reasonable to ask a model locomotive to pull prototype loads up steeper than scale grades. After all, most layouts are compromised with sharper than scale curves, shorter than prototype tracks, yards, loops, etc. Similarly, grades are steepened to save space. A locomotive that will only pull prototype loads on scale grades, may as well be designed to negotiate minimum prototype curves and have scale sized flanges, etc. As a ready-to-run model it would be next to useless for most people.
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Hardly overdesigned, it is a large locomotive and when reproduced in white-metal, that is what it ends up weighing. It does not stall under load, it wheel-slips, which is the desired outcome. What does one of those white-metal 38s weigh, as it would be a comparable model. Roachie?
TheBlacksmith
Sorry mate, but I don't own any of the DJH white metal locos....I built a few hundred models back in the 90's, but they were all for other modelers. At that time I didn't have a layout of my own, nor did I have access to anybody else's layout, so I only ever tested the models I built by running them on a flat 6 foot "S" bent test track. Also, I didn't keep any records of what the various models weighed. Sad

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